It’s as if Murray was reborn. He really stayed under control while Jockitch lost it. Some pretty high quality tennis. Murray certainly has proved something. Hope he continues to improve.

Wonderful exhibition of choking from Chokovic/choker/joker/jerkovic. Chokovic fans - be glad that murray beat him, else nadal would have given him a public colonoscopy today.

Serves the Jerk right! Flashing the no.1 sign in the 2nd set at hamburg against Rafa. He has not won a set against rafa since then. Who will be the next no.1 now?

Very exciting TB in Nadal’s QF. Reeeshard played unexpectedly well, sadly, he cannot sustain (as expected). Nadal alllllll the way. VAMOS RAFA!!!

It is Rafa time baby! No.1 and US open - here comes Rafa!

From yesterday’s interview (?), Nadal: “The ranking says I’m the No. 2, so I feel the No. 2.”

Gasquet: “He [Nadal] the best player in the world for me, and it will be really hard for one player to win against him.”

Even when most of the world has already accepted Nadal as the No. 1 by this time, Nadal will wait until Fed formally concedes? Is Nadal saying he will feel the No.1 when Fed says it is ok? Is he saying, “I understand it is really difficult for you to drop down to No. 2, so I will be nice with you and wait until you are mentally/ emotionally ready to concede even after the ATP Ranking Chart puts me at the top. You take your time, pal.”

Or, is there an inadvertent cruelty underlying the this surface nicety? Could it be a subtle way to torture Fed as his No. 1 position is questioned and is forced to assert in speech, an obvious recognition of the failure to assert in action, “I am still the No. 1″ a few more times, while most of us,like Gasquet in above quote, feel otherwise? By being forced to say he’s still no. 1, every day he will look more ridiculous from now onward.

What do yo’ll think?

In my math, if Nadal wins at Toronto and reaches semi at Cincy, he will officially surpass Fed, even if Fed wins Cincy, but ATP’s article requires Nadal to reach Final at Cincy to achieve the same. I may have missed something somewhere. I’d appreciate if somebody explains that to me (JCF, Daniel, Ra, Gordo, Noel, Vulcan, Giner, Matt, FoT, SG, Ryan, or whoever).

Murray was reborn at Wimbledon when he beat Gasquet; I don’t know if people here watched that match, but Murray was aggressive when he needed to be and he had such guts. Even though Rafa beat him in the quarters there, Rafa played probably some of his best grass court tennis to do it. Rafa was amazing against Murray - very aggressive no errors etc.

Murray needs a big event win, and he wants one badly too. I’d love to see him get it.

But as Sean says, how do you pick against Rafa? It’s awfully difficult to do.

I think we’ll see Novak back to his early year self soon enough; I could be wrong, but that’s what I think. His second set against Murray was great - until the tiebreak. So, I think he should be fine the rest of the season.

Both Novak and Rafa have tougher draws in Cincy, but both lost early last year so stand to gain points. Murray’s got a tough section in Cincy. Roger’s draw is pretty basic - he may meet Roddick in the quarters, again (!) - but he’s also defending a title.

The schedule feels jam-packed as a fan; I can’t imagine how the players feel!

Just wanted to reiterate what a pleasure it was to watch Richard in that first set last night - wow. So exciting. Makes me wish, like everyone else, that he’d get it together and play like that regularly.

Shital Green - I may actually know the answer to this one! Shocking! It might be because they haven’t yet removed Stuggart points from last year? I don’t know, but I thought I read a discussion on that recently.

Q. Did he say anything to you at the net or afterwards?
ANDY MURRAY: No, just, Good luck and well-played. Play well the rest of the tournament. I saw him in the locker room afterwards and had a little chat, but nothing too much.

What a class act Novak is with his comments to and about Murray.

Sean- “Gasquet playing at his very highest of levels still needs to go to 14-12 in a tiebreak just to wrestle a set away from Nadal who is playing on arguably his worst surface!”

You in the media should know by now that Nadal does not have a weak or worst surface he can play them all.

Shital Green, Nadal is saying he is not #1 because when you go on the ATP site… he is ‘officially’ listed as #2 still. Remember, the schedule is all wacked up this year due to the Olympics so the Toronto tournament points from last year are still counted in the rankings because that tournament was held later in the year last year, and those points won’t come off until that week gets here this year. Confusing, I know.

But from what I understand, “officially” Nadal can take the #1 spot in Cincy (depending on what he and Roger does).

These 2 players have too much respect for each other for Nadal to even be thinking about some of the suggestions you mentioned. He (Nadal) is just going by the ‘official’ ranking until he says he’s #1 (something everyone already knows is unofficial) - and this is from the #1 Fed fan around!

There is no question that this year Nadal is #1 and I’m sure the ‘official’ rankings will reflect it soon. However, on some other boards some stupid fans have the nerve to say that since Roger is not #1 he needs to retire! What kind of logic is that!? Some fans are saying Roger need to retire because he’s all washed up. These are the fans that just irks me to no end… But I tried to just ignore them.

Be patient Nadal fans… the “official” ranking will be changed soon. As a Fed fan, I’m just enjoying these last few weeks for him as being the #1 ranked player. But even when Nadal gets #1, I know Roger isn’t going to just lay down and give up… He’ll be fighting tooth and nails to get it back, which will be great for tennis.

Sar - yes, and he applauded on court too; it’s obvious Novak respects Murray and is aware of his talent. He’s been saying for a long time that Murray is a top five guy and I agree with Nole. He probably is feeling pressure, but he didn’t talk about it much; he gave all credit to Murray.

I hope the Murray & Rafa semi is a good one - last year in Madrid, I think, was two sets but two very entertaining ones.

FoT

“on some other boards some stupid fans have the nerve to say that since Roger is not #1 he needs to retire! What kind of logic is that!?”

That is silly; just because Roger isn’t number 1 doesn’t mean he should retire. I do think that a break might be good, just to regroup, but can’t see him taking it. All he needs to do is keep playing his game. If he’s #2, 3, or 5, that’s nothing to shake a stick at - sheesh! He’s still a contender just not the top dog.

Rafa is the best player in the world now; I have to agree with Boris Becker and Johnny Mac.

Jane, I agree that Rafa is the best player right now. No question. And I also agree with you regarding those stupid fans saying he needs to retire! Here’s a quote from one of them:

“It would be good for him to retire. He is a shadow of the player he used to be and he certainy will never win another grand slam. It is best to retire now before he drops out of the top 3.”

Now according to that logic, I guess Roddick, Davydenko, and all the other top players need to retire too! This is what a lot of us Federer fans have to put up with throughout the internet. lol!

FoT,

Well at least you Fed fans have had 4 years of winning everything! I am a fan of a few players, my main guy being Novak, so I am used to a lot of ridiculous, mean-spirited comments. You should just ignore them; you know Fed’s still one of the best players around and you know what he has achieved is phenomenal. Just scoll over the trolls.

Shital
I am sure you would have grilled Nadal further had he said that “yes, I feel like No 1″.

Federer is still No 1 because of all the points he has accumulated and right now they are more than Rafa’s.

When and if Rafa surpasses Fed in the rankings, then ATP will announce him as No 1. Then he can feel as No 1!

He talks with his racquet and deosn’t like to brag. He also respects the position Fed and himself are in. Might be hard for you to understand. But that’s as simple as that.

FoT
I think that was a stupid journalist who asked Roger about Henin’s retirement.

Roger and his fans have to just ignore the stupid comments. Unfortunately life at the top is cruel. They either worship you or bury you when you are done. As a Nadal fan, we have experienced this each year on the hard court season. I am sure Fed will be back and give them the appropriate answer. He may not be No 1, or as dominant as before, but he sure has many GSs titles waiting for him. He also said he wanted to play another 10 years and that’s what we want to see too.

FoT,
Ref: “on some other boards some stupid fans have the nerve to say that since Roger is not #1 he needs to retire!”

I condemn those irrational remarks. Although I am not a big Fed fan as such (only a critical admirer), I have said this before and I say it again I still like the beauty of his game and would like to see him around at least 3-4 more years. When he reaches 30, he may want to start thinking about retirement, but again it depends on how he will be performing physically and skillfully. I honestly think that he will win a couple of more GS in the next couple of years.
And I agree with you, “But even when Nadal gets #1, I know Roger isn’t going to just lay down and give up… He’ll be fighting tooth and nails to get it back, which will be great for tennis.”

Jane / FoT,
I am still missing 150 points somewhere in between. Even after taking into account Stuttgart and rescheduling, I cannot find that 150 points.
ATP: “Nadal is 770 points behind Federer this week but could cut that lead to a mere 300 points should he win the Rogers Cup.”
In my math, Fed’s lead drops down to 150 points if Nadal wins here. I still don’t know how I got it wrong.

About Djoko/Roddick/Fed’s exit…

THis is the first hard court event after a two week rest. So I certainly expect the playrs to be better by each event. The inportant point is that they are all healthy ( I hope Roddick’s back injury is gone).

Apart from Rafa, who is really motivated right now, it was a pleasure to see Murray and Gasquet play so well. They both had hard time, mentally and physically. Seeing them putting things back together and play their game was fantastic. last night I was thinking if Gasquet could play like that for three sets, who could stop him?

Shital

***In my math, Fed’s lead drops down to 150 points if Nadal wins here. I still don’t know how I got it wrong.***

I have the same number. I don’t know why they say the lead will be 300 points if Rafa wins Toronto.

Zola,
Ref: “you would have grilled Nadal further had he said that “yes, I feel like No 1.″

First off, I like Rafa. When and where have I “grilled” Rafa, now or in the past? Why would I “grill” him? Do I have to take your permission before I speculate about an event and its possible effects? Did I say anything definitively bad about Rafa above?

I have not seen Nadal talking down to others like you do either about other players and/or their fans. Has Nadal ever said Djoko and Roddick are irritating like you have and still do? If you think you are his fan, following his example of the way he speaks about others would be true homage to him. Otherwise, I would just have to say you oppose Rafa’s example of respect for others. One does not have to be insensitive and reactionary to be a fan.

Shital,
please read your post before lecturing me:

***
Or, is there an inadvertent cruelty underlying the this surface nicety? Could it be a subtle way to torture Fed as his No. 1 position is questioned and is forced to assert in speech, an obvious recognition of the failure to assert in action, “I am still the No. 1″ a few more times, while most of us,like Gasquet in above quote, feel otherwise? By being forced to say he’s still no. 1, every day he will look more ridiculous from now onward.

****

This suggestion of cruelty, is when he remains respectful to Federer. What would have been your judgement if he had said”yes, I am No 1″?

I don’t know if anyone has noticed or mentioned that the Cincy draw is out, but it is.

Some people have speculated about Rafa’s unerring and unrelenting humility with regards to Roger before; this isn’t the first time. I believe grendel was one who always wondered how sincere Rafa is in his outward persona. Others have pointed out that they find his humility a bit overdone, like Kroll, who is in fact a Rafa fan - but a very objective one.

So it’s fair to speculate.

I don’t think Shital came right out and accused Rafa of anything; he was just wondering about it - and he even posed the question “what do you all think?” at the end of his post.

Shital and Zola you are absolutely right. IF Nadal wins Toronto(which many of us hope), he will only be 150 points behind Federer. Should Federer be successful at defending his title and Nadal makes it to the semis, Nadal will be the new No1. What the ATP website forgets to mention though, is that if Federer does not make it to the final, Nadal will be the new No.1 even without playing….

Jane,
you could have been the head of the UN. You always want to restore peace and I appreciate it.

well, implying cruely and trying to torture Fed is rather harsh and unfair . Even if it follows: “what do you think!”

Anyway,
seems kiefer-Simon might go to a third set. I don’y like it that they have scheduled the semis one after another. One player will have less time to rest and that’s not fair.

Andy is playing great and I think it will be a difficult match for RAfa. I hope he can win.

Henry
thanks a lot for the calculations. I don’t know where 300 comes from. Rafa has a tough draw in cincy and who knows what will happen.

PLEASE NOTE:

Can I please ask everyone a favor of NOT stating the results of the SF matches before ESPN begins THEIR DELAYED broadcast at 8:00 p.m. tonight. Somehow, knowing the results beforehand takes away from the excitement of watching the match. Two more hours to go and then I can watch the matches with breathless anticipation, similar to a kid waiting for the pizza party to begin. Mmmm, yummy.

Zola,
My post is well calculated in the choice of words. If you don’t know English, “inadvertently” means “without intending,” which frees Rafa from any responsibility, and it moves in the direction of putting the “intention” on perception of readers, including Federer, and that sentence is interrogative, not affirmative, and starts with “Or,” meaning alternative. The second sentence starts with “Could,” suggesting uncertainty (with less force than “can”) and ends with a question mark. And the clause after “as” has nothing to do with Rafa because it is in passive form, meaning questions by media/people are self evident (who is questioning Fed’s No. 1 position is less relevant than the act). Nowhere in the post I indicate that this is my position or this is what I think. I simply “wonder.” This section ends with, “What yo’ll think?” That question seeks response from others. Asking what other people think is not “grilling.”

Compare your quoted paragraph with the one before that, which starts with, “Even when most of the world has already accepted Nadal as the No. 1 by this time, Nadal will wait…” Every sentence in that paragraph starts with more certainty. First sentence is an affirmative sentence, with unequivocal acknowledgment of Rafa’s achievement.I have only praised Rafa there. Then, each question begins with “Is,” followed by “will,” not “Could.” I hope you know the difference.

Had he said, “I feel what I should feel” “I feel I am getting there,” I would have no comment. I have no problem with what he said about feeling No. 2, either. I was only wondering the effect of that statement on Federer, not on what Rafa intended.

You said, “He talks with his racquet and deosn’t like to brag.” Let’s say you are Rafa’s spokesperson, as you evidently act like one, and you are speaking to the media, then that speaking through racket would still sound like bragging, despite your intention being otherwise. If Rafa said the same, it would be, “I speak through my racket. I don’t brag.” This would be bragging, too. Do I have problem with that? No, I would say Rafa has changed.

What’s your response to sounding blatantly “irritating” to Roddick and Djokovic fans? Are you being nice by calling other players “irritating”?

Zola

I agree with you, although I very much enjoy Shital Green posts but since his guy lost he has been very bitter and I really found his statements about rafa’s humility distateful.

Shital green,Jane,Zola,Henry:

What you guys/girls are forgetting is that the 2007 evens’ points are going to drop only when 52 weeks have passed while this year’s events’ points will presumably-i am almost certain now-will be added as part of the other countable five events.I presume you are aware of the reasons for this absurd situation of 10 or possibly 11 ams events going into the rankings breakdown(early scheduling due to olympics).I had responded to a query from matt on the 25 th and I reproduce it to see if I can clarify things a bit.The first para appears irrelevant and can be safely ignored.

Noel Says:

Matt,
That is indeed very absurd but is probably not correct if I were to go by what happened earlier this year after the lesser events i.e. the international series events at estoril,stuttgart etc.The atp adheres to a strict 52 week rolling system and therefore the points for the 2007 events that you have mentioned will drop from the system only when the 52 weeks have passed.The 2008 events’ points will probably enter the system only then.It really hasn’t been a talking point so far because the big players like Djokovic and Nadal didn’t play at estoril and stuttgart respectively where they were defending champs.I am sure we’d have talked about it if Nadal had played and won stuttgart and his ranking points breakdown after 14th july would have shown two stuttgart(2007 and 2008)events as part of his best of five other events.The stuttgart 2007 points dropped off only on 21st july.I can’t confirm if stuttgart 2008 ponts entered the system on 14th july or on 21st july because the atp rankings database is in a mess as always.I get the feeling-I am almost certain- that all performances and the points of the current year events will enter the system only when 52 weeks have passed from last year’s events and we won’t have double-counting in that case.I hope some forum member can verify this.

The atp also says that the rankings constitue the 4 slams plus the 9 ams events plus 5 other events besides the tmc.It really will be interesting to see if the atp handles this any differently than what it has done so far if we consider the double-counting scenario.Will it allow only the best nine of the ten or eleven ams performances or allow the additonal 2007 events as part of the best of five other countable events as also the tmc.Obviously,this second scenario is a bit complicated and I think we are not going to see this.Another option,equally unlikely,is to stop releasing the official rankings or freeze/suspend it for a while before we get back on track on the monday after the olympics i.e.18th august.
How I wish the atp’s past rankings data on its website were not in a mess!

Posted July 25th, 2008 at 11:55 am

At that time I was thinking that the 2008 events’ point will enter the system only when 2007 points drop off but your discussion about the fed-rafa ‘race’ put me thinking and the second ‘unlikely’ and ‘complicated’ scenario that I envisaged in my post to matt appears true.Matt thought about it first but logically said that it sounded absurd and wondered if it could indeed be true and he has been proven correct.I just did a calculation and if you add 500 points to rafa ’s existing tally of 5830 and deduct 25 points for rotterdem,rafa will have 6305 points because he is keeping his 2007 canada ams points as well.Fed only gets 5 points for his pathetic 2008 ams canada show and he will have 6605 points which gives the difference of 300 points that you say atp is talking about.Fed doesn’t drop any points because he only has Four other countable events in his ranking breakdown and therefore has ‘room’ to accommodate an additional event without dropping some other event like rotterdem in Rafa’s case.I hope I have clarified more than i have confused you.

I think Roger will lose 350 point. So, his lead will be 420 point if Rafa gets to the semi in Toronto. If Rafa wins Toronto, Rafa will be just (770-350 ) - (500-225) = 145 points behind Roger. Am I Correct?

“The loss also means no Djokovic-Nadal semifinal. I didn’t talk much about this semifinal possibility in my earlier posts because I just didn’t think it would happen. On paper it was hard at least for me not to see it, but in some ways I’m not so sure the players wanted it or were ready for such stern test this early in the hard court season. I almost got the sense that maybe Novak didn’t want to run into Rafa here. And vice-versa, had Novak won last night maybe Rafa would have taken Gasquet a little lighter. Maybe. Just a feeling I had, it’s neither here nor there.”

I liked your article until you got to that part. You’re saying Rafa and Nole are afraid to play each other, and would rather tank a match to avoid the encounter? W…T…F.

The above post is not by Roddick is a saint. my cousin has been fooling around with me and put it in my name box.I realized it only after sending my post.I have read a post by a poster by the same name today and I think my cousin did as well.I repeat again that I have nothing to do with the poster posting with this name.

I love the Game,

I think I made myself clear in the last post that I do not have any problem with Rafa’s humility. I was not commenting on his humility per se but wondering on the unintended effect of that humility. And there are 2 parts in my speculation: One very positive; the other not so. You cannot take one part if you want to be fair to the entire post. And I was only asking you guys to think. I was not giving any kind of definitive verdict. I have never questioned (and will never question) how a player responds to a particular query in an interview or elsewhere.
Thanks for reading and enjoying my posts, though.
I apologize if I sounded bitter.

Roddick Is Saint,
Now it makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Noel,
Thank you 2nd time.

Roddick is a saint/ aka Noel (and probably a host of other impostors):

Well, you’re a rather sneaky one. So sneaky that your trickery outsmarted you. What do i mean? Take a look at your post of 7:33 pm to Shital, jane, et al., in which you “reproduced” your July 25, 2008, at 11:55 am to Matt, wherein you used your post name of Noel. However, a con artist always gets conned by his own hands, YOU FORGOT TO CHANGE YOUR “RODDICK IS A SAINT” post name, back to Noel. In that post you blasted myself and several other posters in defense of Federer in a gutless manner, not using your ever so fair and sweet “Noel” post name designation. What a hypocrite.

WOW, you are something else and then some. In your prior posts to me you pretended to be so cordial and accommodating while playing a game with me and others. My God, what a revelation!! Probably all of the other “Roddick is a Donkey” posts coupled with some of the other Roddick is ???? designations, is really you in disguise. I am repulsed that anyone could stoop so low whie pretending to be so nice. You are indeed a piece of work. I hope you can absorb the enormity of your foolishness and take this as a lesson that when we do evil, evil will befall us. for someone who claims that he is not very computer savvy, you’re savvy enough to use guile and treachery, but your stupidity has backfired on you and I doubt whether nyone could trust you.

Who knows, you could be Spin and all the others who have suddenly arrived along with NOEL. cARRY ON SMART-LESS-ly!! HERE’S A SMILEY FOR YOU, THE ONES YOU CLAIMED YOU DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO MAKE, and this fool showed you how. This occasion warrants four (4) of them. Here goes: , , ,

GOODBYE NOEL.

Noel:

I didn’t see your post of 7:52 pm until after I submitted my post of 8:03 pm that you posted to the effect that you did not write that post by Roddick is a saint. Sorry, Noel, I don’t believe you. The style and language is the same as yours. No spacing after periods, using lower case for proper nouns, etc. Tell me Noel, if that wasn’t you, then you knew all along that someone else was using your computer, posting offensive posts about Roddick with fictitious names? Why? I am befuddled!!

Noel:

This is the post that was posted earlier. Compare the style and punctuation. It’s the same as your post.

Roddick is a saint Says:
How ridiculous and cheap Federer haters can get.Gosh,people invent newer and newer sicks to beat Federer with.This is juvenile and absolutely staggering to suggest that Federer’s ‘vanity’ and ‘greed’ have led to his problems.Please add that all other players on the tour are playing for charity or philanthropy and Andy Roddick is their patron saint.These guys are professional tennis players for christ’s sake and many of them want the same thing(money,fame and possibly a place in tennis history) that Federer has been accused of being greedy about.They will give an arm and a leg for a life and career like that.Roddick is not working his ass out to get beaten easily and being charitable to his opponent.He wants to win titles and the money that comes with it.Professional athletes do not have a long career and it is understandable that they will like to make hay when the sun shines.At least he does something with his charitable foundation which is more than can be said about for other players.He can make even more money by playing a lot more events and ask for big appearance fees but his schedule over the last four years has been very conservative and he does not play even the 18/19 events per year that most players play at the very least.And to compare him to a greedy doctor!!His problems have nothing to do with playing some fun matches with sampras.He did not feel well throughout the off-season and missed important practice sessions before and after Australian open due to illness.Once his season begins in full earnest from Dubai onwards,he does not get any time to work on his game.His next ‘break’ between London and Toronto was very short.With davis cup after the us open,he won’t get the time he feels comfortable with to work on his game.
It is the same ‘greed’ or ambition and motivation that eggs on great players and forces them to tread a very thin line between enjoying the game and stressing and pressurizing themselves for that extra effort that makes all the difference.It involves a lot of tradeoffs and compromises and sacrifices but that is the price of success.No one can have everything.Borg/Henin could not handle the stress and walked away.Sampras won’t be wondering today about what went ‘wrong’ with his career and he will be much happier for it.An Andy Roddick will never feel the same if he was ambitious enough to begin with.

I can understand someone’s hatred for a guy who has thrashed his/her favorite player a lot of times but crass and below the belt comments about his girlfriend betray absolutely zero knowledge about human relationships.It sounds as if Mirka is a foolish,pitiable, bonded slave and Federer is the ruthless,cynical and cruel master exploiting her.They know much better than we do.They could break up tomorrow or can live together for the rest of their lives and whether they should marry or not won’t be decided by the patron saint’s unofficial pr guy.Sampras married bridgette wilson jones in a hurry but dumped at least two previous girlfriends equally quickly.
It is natural for people to get fed up of the season’s grind and some can get bored doing it year after year.Motivation levels particularly at smaller events goes down and it becomes difficult to look forward to doing things you loved doing earlier.Novak djokovic is apparently getting tired mentally already and he has just begun his career!!

Posted July 26th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

You pretend to like Djokovic yet you took a swipe at him, oh, but that’s not you, it was Roddick is a saint. Yes?

The intensity of the match is really high. Except the tie break, both are playing at their level best. Murray is missing his forehand more than other matches he played here, so obviously Nadal is capitalizing on that, frequently returning to his forehand. As always, Nadal’s defense is unbelievable, returning from normally impossible places. Murray had 3 opportunities to break Nadal in the opening game of the 2nd set, but could not covert any (6 deuces). At times Murray is producing spectacular cross court backhand shots. Strangely, Murray is missing easier balls more often than difficult ones. At the end, it looks like this is Rafa’s to take and inch in for the coveted No. 1.

Great Match. Murray challenged Nadal, but like the Gasquet match, Nadal endures and moves on.

I am not so sure Nadal wouldn’t be the favorite going into us open with each match he plays. He is just a machine right now.

Congratulation to Nadal !
Credit for Murray for elevating his level through out this tournament and putting up some fight !

Shital

apologies accepted,but its a free world and thats what makes it intersting the ability to express our minds.

That was some an outstanding match,Murrays backhand was awesome.I was afraid for my boy(Rafa).
But for Rafa to win HC GS he has to increase his serve speed.

Yep, nice match - great challenge from Murray; he stayed positive throughout. And Rafa continues to impress us all! Numero uno Rafa Nadal! Congrats!

What a brilliant match, much closer than the score reflected for sure. I was very impressed by Murray’s performance and the character he showed, especially the two excellent shots he hit to save the match points. Rafa was pretty good too though I think he was patchy at times with the peak being his choke while facing breakpoints in the second set to double fault.
And inspite of the apparent flaws in his game as far as hardcourts are concerned, namely the high backlift on the forehand and the topspin, he’s actually made up for them somewhat by playing really really deep. Though I feel that the hardcourts here offer a little more bounce than USO so its hard to say what will happen at the slam.

Shital (how do you pronounce that name anyway?)

“Even when most of the world has already accepted Nadal as the No. 1 by this time, Nadal will wait until Fed formally concedes? Is Nadal saying he will feel the No.1 when Fed says it is ok? Is he saying, “I understand it is really difficult for you to drop down to No. 2, so I will be nice with you and wait until you are mentally/ emotionally ready to concede even after the ATP Ranking Chart puts me at the top. You take your time, pal.”

Or, is there an inadvertent cruelty underlying the this surface nicety? Could it be a subtle way to torture Fed as his No. 1 position is questioned and is forced to assert in speech, an obvious recognition of the failure to assert in action, “I am still the No. 1″ a few more times, while most of us,like Gasquet in above quote, feel otherwise? By being forced to say he’s still no. 1, every day he will look more ridiculous from now onward.

What do yo’ll think? ”

No, I think Nadal is just being sensitive to Roger’s pain. He knows how much Wimbledon meant to him, and what a tough defeat feels like. He’s not the kind of person that would want to torture someone. Every time he wins a big match against Fed, he prostrates himself, but not at RG this year. He knew if he celebrated like that, it would have been inappropriate and rude to Fed. He’s just not that insensitive.

“In my math, if Nadal wins at Toronto and reaches semi at Cincy, he will officially surpass Fed, even if Fed wins Cincy, but ATP’s article requires Nadal to reach Final at Cincy to achieve the same. I may have missed something somewhere. I’d appreciate if somebody explains that to me (JCF, Daniel, Ra, Gordo, Noel, Vulcan, Giner, Matt, FoT, SG, Ryan, or whoever).”

OK, here’s my attempt.

Fed - 6600
Rafa - 5830

Fed will gain 5, and if we assume Rafa wins the title, he gains 500. So after Toronto:

Fed - 6605
Rafa - 6330

That’s 275 points difference. A finals spot is worth 350, a semi final is worth 225. If Rafa makes the final, and Fed loses in the 2nd round (R32), Rafa will be #1. If Rafa makes the final and Fed loses in R16, then they will be tied for #1! They will both have exactly 6680.

Fed is lucky and has a buffer because last year’s ranking points will not be deducted for another two weeks, so he can still gain points in Cincy, and hasn’t lost any in Toronto.

What this means is, that it’s unlikely Rafa will overtake him after Cincy. Fed will get a chance to gain some free points at the Olympics in the event that Rafa gains points in Cincy, and thus if he does better at the Olympics may avoid losing his #1 ranking.

Here’s something interesting… If last year’s points were deducted at the end of the event instead of two weeks later, and if Rafa beats Kiefer and wins the title, then Fed and Rafa would both be joint #1 with 6105 points. I have never seen joint #1 before.

In response to whoever made the comment about Rafa not wanting to proclaim himself number 1 — I think more than anything it has to do with the fact that he doesn’t want to put himself in a position of declaring himself him #1, and then having his hardcourt season go horribly wrong. By the rankings, he is still number 2. And for all the speculation, it could also not happen for him. And Rafa is well known for his superstitious quirks, and it might just be that he doesn’t want to jinx it (as someone else posted earlier, a lesson Djokovic has since learned).

As for the math — the ATP site says that no change in rankings will take place before the Olympics. The scheduling means that the 2007 Canada and Cincinnati results won’t come off until just before the Games begin. So for 2 weeks players will have 2 Masters events count — I think it’s a quirk that counts all Masters events, even when there’s 2 more than there should be. So Rafa could clinch it in Cincinnati, but it won’t actually show up until right before Beijing.

Alas, I don’t think it will happen. Rafa has never played well in Cincinnati and I just don’t see him winning both Toronto and Cincy. As it is, a win tomorrow would be his first post-Wimbledon win since 2005. And my hunch is he’ll ease up and sacrifice Cincy in order be at his best in Beijing and New York — and the big push for number 1.

Murray’s game has improved tremendously. I like his new change of attitude; it’s going to be the difference in winning more matches. I particularly liked Murray’s willingness to move up into the court and take the ball earlier. However, he has to be more conservative with his challenges in the future — tonight he had 3 wrong challenges in the second set which frustrated him somewhat. All in all, he played very well.

Shital

“In my math, if Nadal wins at Toronto and reaches semi at Cincy, he will officially surpass Fed, even if Fed wins Cincy, but ATP’s article requires Nadal to reach Final at Cincy to achieve the same. I may have missed something somewhere. I’d appreciate if somebody explains that to me (JCF, Daniel, Ra, Gordo, Noel, Vulcan, Giner, Matt, FoT, SG, Ryan, or whoever).”

Something to add.. you have definately missed something. Because the old points won’t be deducted for another two weeks, if Fed wins Cincy, he will gain 500 points on top of last year’s 500. He will lose 500 just before the Olympics. So he has a buffer that prevents him from losing his ranking prematurely due to bad play. In a normal year, he’d be gone.

Doing some further maths, assuming Rafa wins Toronto, if Fed makes the final of Cincy, he will hang onto #1, even if Rafa wins the title. But if Rafa wins the title, and Fed only makes the SF, then they will be joint #1.

Bottom line: As long as Fed makes the final of Cincy, he cannot lose his ranking no matter what. At least for another two weeks.

It’s a matter of time though.

What I would like to see happen is for both Rafa and Fed to have equal points. That will be interesting. I wonder how they will seed them in the next tournament? Will they both be listed as rank 1? I would assume Fed is still seeded 1.

In any case, Fed may be protected by delayed points removal and a chance to get free points in Beijing, but it won’t last forever.

rjnick Says:

“And Rafa is well known for his superstitious quirks, and it might just be that he doesn’t want to jinx it (as someone else posted earlier, a lesson Djokovic has since learned).”

Please….. Rafa is always extremely conservative in playing himself up and its not like he’s being different as far as proclaiming his superiority is concerned. That is partly because he’s a ridiculously grounded kid and partly because of some stupid good manners conditioning that he’s got from his uncle. Its annoying sometimes (as i ve said before) because its often dishonest, trite and offers no insights into what he’s thinking which make reading his interviws tiresome. He never ever criticises Fed (even though Fed has has done the reverse a few times) or any other player unless he’s being righteous so there….

Great detective skills Inspector Von. No one seems to fool you. Maybe the site should just require login to post comments? That would stop people like Joker.

Anyway, I just wanted to say again how exciting the state of men’s tennis is right now. We may see shared #1 for the first time I’m aware of, and the #1 ranking will go back and forth week by week. This will make the two even more competitive, and maybe enter more tournaments to outdo the other. This will also motivate Djokovic to climb even higher to catch them.

You have to admit though, if Fed was at his 2006 best, Rafa would not be in the conversation for #1. However, Fed is entering the twilight phase of his career, so it’s unlikely he’ll regain that kind of dominance again.

Will the Olympics points be counted as one of the “Best 5 others”?

Kroll Says:

“What a brilliant match, much closer than the score reflected for sure. I was very impressed by Murray’s performance and the character he showed, especially the two excellent shots he hit to save the match points. Rafa was pretty good too though I think he was patchy at times with the peak being his choke while facing breakpoints in the second set to double fault.
And inspite of the apparent flaws in his game as far as hardcourts are concerned, namely the high backlift on the forehand and the topspin, he’s actually made up for them somewhat by playing really really deep. Though I feel that the hardcourts here offer a little more bounce than USO so its hard to say what will happen at the slam.”

Murray had excellent game. He has big weapons, off both wings. He punished Rafa’s first serves a lot. He was hitting lots of winners from all over the court. But Rafa’s strategy was to keep inviting Murray to go for big forehands, because he knew he wouldn’t be able to keep it up. This worked great in the tie breaker. Murray hit 40 errors as opposed to 16 from Rafa, but also more winners. That’s the kind of stats you come to expect from big hitters who like to pull the trigger a lot.

Rafa played some excellent drop shots throughout the match. He disguised them well. Murray played some great ones himself.

Overall, I’d say it was a quality match. I was watching the feed from Mary’s link which cut out mid way in the second set and when I reconnected to it, it was over.

Von, ur full of surprises. Good work in tracing the sockpuppets, and they Are annoying no doubt.But you do have time on your hands, didnt you say you were a grad student of some kind?

JCF:

Are you making fun of me? I dislike these phoney poster names. My point being, if someone has something to say, then say it openly. Have the courgage of their convictions; there shouldn’t be a need to hide behind a false identity; it places the person that’s being addressed at a disadvantage.

I answered your post concerning my favorite player on the other thread.

“As for the math — the ATP site says that no change in rankings will take place before the Olympics. The scheduling means that the 2007 Canada and Cincinnati results won’t come off until just before the Games begin. So for 2 weeks players will have 2 Masters events count — I think it’s a quirk that counts all Masters events, even when there’s 2 more than there should be. So Rafa could clinch it in Cincinnati, but it won’t actually show up until right before Beijing.”

Oh I getcha. I didn’t know that.

That means my math was wrong. Fed gets protected status for 2 weeks. What this does still mean however is that if Rafa wins Toronto, then loses his first match at Cincy, and Fed defends Cincy title, then when the Olympics comes, they will both have equal points and be joint #1…

That means Fed MUST defend his title in order to avoid losing his ranking when Beijing begins. And if I’m not mistaken, if Rafa wins a single match at Cincy, he will be #1 (just before Beijing). This is assuming he beats Kiefer on Sunday to win Toronto. It’s hard to see why he won’t, but nothing is a certainty in tennis.

JCF
“Murray hit 40 errors as opposed to 16 from Rafa, but also more winners.”

Those numbers are misleading by all accounts. Murray hit loads of great winners, no doubt, but you have to wonder about That kind of disparity. And because Rafa doesn’t hit as flat as Murray, he ends up with less number of clear winners. In fact there are loads of points where Murray just managed to reach the ball though it was obvious that he had absolutely no chance to hit it back. Those technically count as unforced errors on Murray’s part but its seriously misplaced terminology.

Kroll:

“Von, ur full of surprises. Good work in tracing the sockpuppets, and they Are annoying no doubt.”

Thanks, and yes they are annoying. I dislike the treachery. With regard to time, I do a lot of legal research on the computer (thank God for the legal data bases) and take self-imposed down time breaks which I devote to posting and reading comments. My eyes are trained to pick up similarities and out of the ordinary things. Call it a job requirement/hazard and/or conditioning.

I made the same mistake as the other day again… I incorrectly assumed Fed won Canada last year. It was only a final he made. Everything I said above was a confusing waste of time.

It didn’t sound right, so I double checked the numbers.

Pre-Toronto:
Fed: 6600
Rafa: 5830

Post-Toronto (IF Rafa wins title):
Fed: 6600+5-350 = 6255
Rafa: 5830+500-225 = 6105

The difference is 150 points as you guys calculated. That is very surmountable at Cincy. If Fed only makes a final and doesn’t win the title, he will lose 150, even if Rafa loses his first match. Which means they share the same number of points. If Rafa makes the SF, he will be #1 regardless of what Fed does. So you were right all along Shital. Sorry I wasted people’s time.

I don’t know why I kept thinking Fed won both Canada and Cincy last year…

Conclusion: Fed must win the title. If he doesn’t, then at best he will have to share his ranking. If Fed doesn’t win the title, Rafa will take his ranking for himself by winning 1 match. If Rafa wants to gain the ranking by his own hands without Federer ‘helping’ him, he needs to make the SF.

Von,

I can’t believe that; I had to scroll up to see what JCF and Kroll were talking about. I really liked Noel’s posts so am shocked. It does seem to be the same style though. Weird - why bother?! Sheesh.

Ain’t no flies on you!

“In fact there are loads of points where Murray just managed to reach the ball though it was obvious that he had absolutely no chance to hit it back. Those technically count as unforced errors on Murray’s part but its seriously misplaced terminology.”

I believe those count as forced errors, or maybe winners, depending on the broadcast. A service winner (an unreturnable serve that the opponent got their racquet on) is not counted as an error or an ace, but as a winner, even if it barely missed the line.

Unforced is when you’re in position to play the shot but you miss it. That’s your own fault. When you’re on the stretch, it’s a forced error.

I think Murray hit 26 winners to 40 UE. And Nadal was 10 to 16. I agree that it doesn’t reflect the quality of the match though. Murray played great. He deserved to win one set at least.

jane:

“It does seem to be the same style though. Weird - why bother?! Sheesh.

There’s no denying that both posts came from the same computer under different post names, but as you can see when he copied his previous post, he also copied the name he had used on that post prior to this evening. That’s what made me do a double take. That kind of game playing just upsets me and leaves me wondering “why”. I’m like JCF says, it tortures me.

Please explain: “Ain’t no flies on you!” I’m not very hip to slangs.

JCF
Well I still disagree. Usually its obvious from watching a match if someone lost because of high number of unforced errors or whatever. I mean this match was pretty balanced and it never seemed that Murray was particularly error-prone. UEs in general are a pretty crazy gray area as the following article clearly indicates.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/2007-07-15-unforced-errors_N.htm

Excerpt :

Informed he had committed 54 unforced errors in a loss in the Sony Ericsson Open in March, Roger Federer begged to differ. The numbers, complained the Swiss No. 1, didn’t come close to capturing reality “because the statistics guys have no clue what an unforced error is,” he said. “I had only about half that.”

No. 4 Andy Roddick says, “It’s subjective, so therefore you know certain places the stats are a little off and other places you’re going to look like a superhero.”

“The loss also means no Djokovic-Nadal semifinal. I didn’t talk much about this semifinal possibility in my earlier posts because I just didn’t think it would happen. On paper it was hard at least for me not to see it, but in some ways I’m not so sure the players wanted it or were ready for such stern test this early in the hard court season. I almost got the sense that maybe Novak didn’t want to run into Rafa here. And vice-versa, had Novak won last night maybe Rafa would have taken Gasquet a little lighter. Maybe. Just a feeling I had, it’s neither here nor there.”

Sean, Rafa knows how close he is to #1. He isn’t going to relent for any reason.

“Rafa was pretty good too though I think he was patchy at times with the peak being his choke while facing breakpoints in the second set to double fault.”

He lost concentration at that point because he got called for Time Violation on break point. It threw him off and bothered him. His first serve missed by a big margin, and it was still on his mind for the second.

He takes longer so he can calm his nerves when he faces break points or when he holds set points. He wasn’t expecting a violation, and he was upset when he got it.

“Though I feel that the hardcourts here offer a little more bounce than USO so its hard to say what will happen at the slam.”

I can totally see people saying that the USO’s bounce was made higher than it was last year if Rafa should go deep in that tournament.

Please. The bounce is higher for both players. Take the ball earlier and you will nullify his weapon. Why isn’t anyone commenting that the pace of Toronto’s court has been slowed down too? And that the concrete was made softer so that his knees won’t feel the pain as much.

rjnick

You are right. A chane in rankings will only happen on August 18th as the ATP announced earlier.

Shital, you are right, too. If Nadal make semis in Cincy even with fed winning he will be n. 1 on August 18th. It will be weird to know Nadal as n. 1 but not seeing it officially for twi weeks. Fed will be able to say he is still number one two more weeks.

But, we Fed fans still have a shot (hope). I will put a scenarium, possible but even I think a slim one:

If Fed wins Cincy and Nadal make quarters (someone mention before that he doesnt do well there) they will go to Olympics:

Fed - 6255 points
Nadal - 6105 points

In Beijing Fed wins it and Nadal doesn’t do well again or Fed makes 200 poinst more than Nadal. They will be going to the US open:

Fed - 6455 points (Fed with 200 more than Nadal)
Nadal - 6105 points

In US Open, Fed wins it and Nadal improve making semis, they will be:

Fed - 6455 pts
Nadal - 6405 pts

Fed still numebr one after US Open!

My points is, if Fed reproduces last years results and manages to make 200 more points than Nadal in Olympics (I don’t have the ATP points for Beijing, if someone have it show me to accurate my calculations), assuming that Nadal will have a better run in Cincy (but not beyond quarters) he can still be official number one!

Von,

I have had a number of conversations with “Noel” who seemed really nice; I find it shocking that she or he would do something deceitful like that. Why not just be forthright, as you said in your response to JCF.

I thought “ain’t no flies on you” meant smart, nothing gets by you; if there was a fly on you, you’d be onto and swat it or some such. It’s a saying my mother-in-law uses when my son does something smart, or catches on to something. But maybe I (via her) am using it wrong.

I meant it as a compliment to your legal eagle eyes.

Sorry to all I just find a mistake. Disconsider the above one, this is the valid one:

But, we Fed fans still have a shot (hope). I will put a scenarium, possible but even I think a slim one:

If Nadal wins tomorrow they will be:

Fed - 6255 pts
Nadal - 6105 pts

If Fed wins Cincy and Nadal make quarters (someone mention before that he doesnt do well there) they will go to Olympics:

Fed - 6255 points
Nadal - 6225 points

Fed still number one after Cincy.

In Beijing Fed wins it and Nadal doesn’t do well again or Fed makes 300 poinst more than Nadal. They will be going to the US open:

Fed - 6555 points (Fed with 300 more than Nadal)
Nadal - 6225 points

In US Open, Fed wins it and Nadal improve making semis, they will be:

Fed - 6555 pts
Nadal - 6525 pts

Fed still numebr one after US Open!

My points is, if Fed reproduces last years results and manages to make 200 more points than Nadal in Olympics (I don’t have the ATP poin