Although i’m a big fan of Nadal, I don’t think he is a sure thing for the USO. His run is amazing and unbelievable enough already. Just hope this dream run continues!

While there are valid arguments against having pro tennis at the Olympics, I think there is a need to acknowledge the importance of winning an Olympic medal to any athlete. The Olympics is the world’s biggest sporting stage and any SPORTS fan will appreciate what it means to be an Olympic Medal. It may not be the pinnacle of tennis to some tennis fans but I’m sure winning the Olympic Gold ranks just as high as any of the other Grand Slams to most players.

Sorry typo… should be Olympic Medalist

I think the doubles gold might got at least part of the way to making up for some of Fed’s disappointment this year. One thing that Olympic tennis does do is that it places just as much emphasis on the doubles as it does the singles — something the Slams often fail to do.

Also, one positive thing to remember about tennis in the Olympics is that it has greatly increased the globalization of the sport. Many countries, including Russia, China, Croatia, and Serbia, only really invested in tennis when it became a gold medal sport in the Olympics. So even if only for that reason, pro tennis in the Olympics is a good thing.

I also think that for most players, as they have said often this week, it’s the Olympic experience they like most. And they prize the medal because it’s so rare. Roger can always try for Wimbledon again next year. He can’t go for singles gold again until 2012. And when you think about it, 420 Grand Slam titles have been handed out in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles since 1988 — but only 24 Olympic golds. And an Olympic gold, even in doubles, is something Roger and Rafa have that Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, and Laver don’t.

It was good to see Federer so happy and take something positive from this. In terms of Nadal; the young man is a real gentleman as well as an exciting champion. One would hope all of the anti-Rafa rationializations would cease at this point. I have read them all on here. My favorites have been the comments regarding the lack of hard court abilities (…two major wins within a few months of dominating on the other surfaces…”yes but…”, “yes but…” Then (speaking of but(t)s) there’s the butt-picking. Quite frankly, that derriere is one of the most spectacular blessings to the eye that God created. Pick away Rafa! Ah that I could pick it for you!

Sean,
thanks or another timely post. I love this line:***…..to capture **(then eat)*** the Olympic gold medal…****

You can watch this match ( any olympic event) from the past week on the nbcolympics.com page. Go to *tennis*, then in the table that has the events, you will see *Rewind*. If you press on that, you can see the whole match.

For those from previous days, press on the “Results and schedules* and press on the day you want.

Rafa played aggressive againt Gonzo, the way he played against Djoko. In the second Gonzo started going or broke with his forehand. He missed some but he was able to hold for a tie-break , whcih Rafa won. In the third, Gonzo was tired I think mentally and physically. Still he held Rafa at 5-2 and saved two match points.

What I liked was that Rafa was able to get those wild forehands back and as the commentators say “with interest”. He wanted this medal very badly and he got it.

The USA channel showed all the medal matches , but did not show the medal ceremony for Rafa!

Safina could not serve. She won the first set easily than had 17 double faults and started to stress out. Dimentieva held it together and won. The three women to win medals were from Russia, very impressive.

or US Open, we have to see how Rafa’s body will hold and how tired he is and how the draw will work out for him. He has had an amazin summer so far.

Interestingly RAfa said his experience of living in the village amog the athletes helped him overcome the fatigue. I was not a fan of tennis in the olympics as well, but the effort put by all the players, specially the top 3, made me change my mind.
I loved the way they all fought in Beijing, the crowd. the excitement ( only I could watch the medal ceremony)….It was amazing.

Again back to Rafa, what he has done, at the age of 22, is just unbeleiveable. Vamos Rafa!

If Nadal wins the USO, look for the hype at AO. He will be holding all the 3 major plus the Olympic gold going for the fourth GS.

That will be surpassing what Fed achieved going into French Open to complete his career Slam.

Sean,
what happened to my post? It did not show it the first time. I posted it again and it said it is a “duplicate” comment. and now it is not here.

Anyway, thanks for the timely post again. Congratulations to all tennis fans. I was not a fan of tennis in the olympics, but the enthusiasm and the joy displayed by all the players, specially the top 3, made me change my mind.

RAfa will be very confident going to the uS Open. but everything will depend on his draw, the fatigue level, etc. So far the summer has been good. I will take it one match at a time like RAfa does. Just thanks to him and all the great players in Beijing to make this a very special olympics.

I also wanted to add that you can watch the match on nbcolympics.com. just find the match and press “Rewind”. If it is not there right now, check in a couple of hours.

Also the USA channel showed ll the medal matches but decided not to show the mens singles medal ceremony. They will show it ” at a later time”….grrrr

rjnick Says:

Also, one positive thing to remember about tennis in the Olympics is that it has greatly increased the globalization of the sport.

Its quite possible that we would not have been watching Rafael Nadal win on hard courts today if it hadnt been for the hard court facility that was built in Barcelona for the 92 Olympics.
China now has major tennis facilities in each of its major cities…it will be interesting to see how they are used in the coming years.

Sar and Simba are retards….

Sar “At 22 Nadal has number one rank, multiple slams and Olympic gold. What did Roger have at that age?”

Thats a really funny question.What did federer have at 22?Guess what he had multiple slams and no 1.Its not that federer was like nalbandian at that point.

Simba
”
Nadal went into Federer’s living room and took his prized possession away. Did Federer match that?”

Ofcourse he did.He beat nadal in hamburg with 6-0 in the final set in 2007.Besides look at the age.Nadal is at his peak and federer is past his peak.The younger guys will always have the advantage.Now after 3 years of waiting behind federer , nadal finally gets to number 1.It happened mainly because of fed’s downfall.

For those who didn’t get to see the awards ceremony, here’s a link to some great photos:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/tennis/photos/galleryid=227706.html

There is absolutely no comparison between Federer beating Nadal in “Hamburg” and Nadal beating Federer at Wimbledon.

At 22 Roger had 2 slams - AO and Wimbledon. But yes, he did get number 1 by then.

At 22 Rafa has 5 slams an Olympic Gold medal and also, as of tomorrow, number 1.

Yep, and throw in a 2004 Davis Cup Win for Icing on the cake…another achievement which Federer cannot match.

Vulcan’s right: if we’re comparing “living rooms,” and Roger’s is Wimbledon (5 titles), then Roger would have to beat Rafa at Roland Garros (4 titles) to equal what Rafa did this summer at Wimbledon.

You’re wrong Jane. At 22 Roger had 3 slams-AO and 2 wimbledons. He was no.1.

To Vulcan: There might be no comparison but if nadal beat fed in wimbledon its because fed was declining this year.We’ll see how nadal does in the french when he becomes 27.

Wouldn’t it be amazing if Nadal went on to win the US Open this year. I think he can do it. He’s undefeated against Murray and beat Djokovic on decoturf at the Olympics which is the same substance that the hard courts are made out of at the US Open.
If Nadal does win the US Open he’ll only need to win in Australia to win the grand slam.

I just watched the ceremony on that link on nbcolympics.com . Just move the button to the end.

I rather enjoy Rafa’s run right now than waste energy to compare him with Fed or any other player. Just one point. Yes, Rafa is younger, but Rafa beat Roger on hard at 2004 and 2006 at Roger’s peak. Something like Gulbis or Del Potro beating RAfa on clay right now.

Thanks for the correction Ryan; I had forgotten that Roger won Wimbledon in 2003.

However, in my opinion, you cannot say Rafa’s move to number 1 is solely because of Roger’s decline; that is a factor, yes, but had Rafa not been so consistent over the past few years, keeping the distance between him and Roger slim, and had Rafa not continued to improve and do well on all surfaces, then Roger would still be number 1.

A lot of credit, most of it in fact, has to be given to the Spaniard.

Nadal cannot beat a healthy djokovic on hard courts.That applies for this year’s US open.In the olympics djok was tired after the monfils match along with the humid weather.

Ryan Says:
Nadal cannot beat a healthy djokovic on hard courts.

You gotta be Djoking with this one…did you even see the match or are you just pulling these statements out of your rectum?

If Djokovic cant handle 3 setters in Beijing…I shutter to think how hes going to fair with 5 setters in NYC in August.

Nadal is now 22 years and two months old. He has won 5 GS, 12 MS, Olympic Gold, 31 ATP tournaments and just got the nº1 spot.

When Federer was 22 years and two months old (October, 2003), he had won 1 GS, 1 MS, 9 ATP tournaments and had never been nº1 ( he would be nº1 at 22 years and 5 months old ).

Does it mean that Nadal at 27 years old will be a more accomplished player than Federer is now?

NO.

Nobody knows what will happen in the long run.

Actually I think Nadal won’t win as many GS as Federer has now (12), neither will he end 4 straight years as nº1, because those achievements are tremendous (Only Sampras has done better than that) and I think Nadal won’t have a very long career of success.

When comparing Fed at 22 and Rafa at 22 Rafa’s far more the accomplished player. Doesn’t mean it will stay that way going forward.

Ryan, Nadal cannot beat a healthy djokovic on hard courts. Define “healthy”?

The most important revelation of the US Open draw will be on which side Djokovic lands. If form holds the winner would have to get through Novak and then Roger/Roger in the final on back-to-back days. Good luck. Based on probability, you have to figure Novak will wind up in Roger’s section this time.

I’m happy for both Nadal and especially, Dementieva who went one better than her silver in 2000. I like Dementieva who exceeds expectations making it to big finals, yet has a habit of coming up short when it counts most. Hopefully she is breaking this trend and will continue challenging the top players.

I wasn’t expecting Nadal to win it a week ago, though I honestly was not sure who would. Perhaps Djokovic for gold, or Federer over Nadal for gold.

I still don’t think much of a gold medal in tennis, but for some people the glory of winning gold for their nation can be even more satisfying than winning a grand slam title for themself. Who knows if this is the case for Rafa and Roger.

I hope Rafa will be good for a deep run at the US Open, and I hope Djokovic will be on the other side of the draw this time.

JCF,

Not sure if you saw, but I replied to your question re: Djokovic and 5 setters on the previous thread.

I am not sure which side Djokovic will be on, but he was on Fed’s side of the draw at both the AO and Wimbledon; the only slam at which he’s been on Rafa’s side this year is RG.

This year there have been six Nadal-Djokovic matches, four Nadal-Federer and only two (well, one a and a half) Djokovic-Federer, so I want Djokovic to be in Federer’s half in the USO.

I like Federer-Djokovic matches so much, but they don’t face each other since MonteCarlo.

Ryan,

“Thats a really funny question.What did federer have at 22?Guess what he had multiple slams and no 1.Its not that federer was like nalbandian at that point.”

Not quite. If you’re considering Federer at age 22 and 11 months, then yes. But at 22 and 3 months (Rafa’s current age) he had one Wimbledon, and rank #3.

“Simba
”
Nadal went into Federer’s living room and took his prized possession away. Did Federer match that?”

Ofcourse he did.He beat nadal in hamburg with 6-0 in the final set in 2007.Besides look at the age.Nadal is at his peak and federer is past his peak.The younger guys will always have the advantage.Now after 3 years of waiting behind federer , nadal finally gets to number 1.It happened mainly because of fed’s downfall.”

Hamburg was not Rafa’s living room, it was Roger’s. Roger was undefeated there in about 5 years. Rafa was the one entering his living room, and he got driven off. But he got the last laugh this year, his final shot at winning it while it’s still a Masters series.

“jane Says:

At 22 Roger had 2 slams - AO and Wimbledon. But yes, he did get number 1 by then.

At 22 Rafa has 5 slams an Olympic Gold medal and also, as of tomorrow, number 1.”

Again, you’re not comparing exact ages. You’re comparing Federer at 22 years and 364 days (practically 23) with Nadal 9 months short of that. At Nadal’s age, Federer had won his first Wimbledon title and got beaten by Nalbandian at the US Open 03. He reached #3 in the world. It wasn’t until 22.5 that he won his second slam and got #1, so Rafa is still ahead.

“To Vulcan: There might be no comparison but if nadal beat fed in wimbledon its because fed was declining this year.We’ll see how nadal does in the french when he becomes 27.”

His decline didn’t happen until after Wimbledon. During Wimbledon he was still playing his best tennis, getting to the final without dropping a set, and never pushed. I wouldn’t call that a decline.

“You’re wrong Jane. At 22 Roger had 3 slams-AO and 2 wimbledons. He was no.1. ”

You’ll have to wait 9 more months before that comparisson is fair. Let me teach you something about age… It is a continuous thing. You are not 22 one day and then 23 the next. You are gradually getting older incrementally by the day.

If a guy is born in Jan 1980 and another guy is born July 1980, and right now it is July 2008, then you can say they are both the same age. But technically that is not true. One guy is 6 months older than the other. One of them is 28 years old, the other guy is 28 and a half. They are not both the same age.

Let’s suppose you are 20 years old and you turn 21 on September 15. On 11:59PM September 14 are you still 20 years old? Nominally, yes. But one minute later you will be 21. Do you realistically age an entire year in one minute? There is no sharp discontinuity separating someone who is 20 years 11 months 29 days 23 hours and 59 minutes old, from someone who is exactly 21 years old.

What is the legal age of consent? At what age are you considered a mature adult? It’s normally 18 for most countries. In Australia, the legal age to drink alcohol, drive and have sex is 18. But can you really say that someone who just turned 18 is more mature than someone who 17 but a couple of days away from their 18th birthday? This hard line that distinguishes one from the other is an arbitrary one that us humans put in place for legal purposes. There is no such line in the real world. Just as a woman who is 6′ may be considered tall, while a woman who is 5′ is considered short. Is there some point in the middle where a woman is considered ’short’ but if she was a fraction of an inch taller, then she would be considered ‘tall’? No. There are intermediates. There is only a smooth continuum in nature, no sharp discontinuity or cut off separating one class from another. And you can apply this to just about anything. Rich vs poor, tall vs short, young vs old, fat vs skinny, deep vs shallow, and so on.

Hopefully by now you understand that you are comparing Federer at 22 years 11 months with Nadal at 22 years 3 months. 9 months = 2 more slams. If you’re going to use Federer’s achievement by this point, then you’re going to have to wait another 9 months to see what Rafa does until May. Federer can be compared directly to Pete Sampras by age because they’re both born in august 10 years apart.

Federer at Nadal’s age had one slam to his name, and maybe just won the Masters Cup and reached #2 in the world. I don’t know the exact date — it may be too early to include even that masters result, but I’ll give him that much.

“Thanks for the correction Ryan; I had forgotten that Roger won Wimbledon in 2003.”

You were right the first time.

“Nadal cannot beat a healthy djokovic on hard courts.That applies for this year’s US open.In the olympics djok was tired after the monfils match along with the humid weather.”

This is not his problem. The only one who can be blamed for not being healthy is Djokovic. Who’s fault is that? If this guy has so many health and fitness problems, he can’t be given excuses for every loss he takes. That isn’t fair to people who know how to take care of their body, which is part of the game.

Ryan, take off those Swiss glasses and see the world the way it is, and not the way you wish it to be.

Sean,
I am praying for Djoko to be on Federer’s side of the draw, primarily because I’d like to see Rafa-Djoko final than any other pair, and secondarily because you and I have to settle an old feud. Remember?

“There is only a smooth continuum in nature, no sharp discontinuity or cut off separating one class from another. And you can apply this to just about anything. Rich vs poor, tall vs short, young vs old, fat vs skinny, deep vs shallow, and so on.”

I would also add black vs white to this list. This is one where we are very biased observers. Barack Obama is considered black, but he is as much white as he is black. Colin Powell is considered black too, but if you zoom into a patch of his face alone, his skin complexion doesn’t look black at all. But stand him next to a white man, and he will look black. Stand him next to a black man and he does not. Race intermediates have a lot of people fooled easily. It seems as long as people have just a little bit of black in them, they are considered fully black.

But I digress.

Sean,
definition of “healthy,” = “Rafa wasn’t all there for that match on that night” (in your own language).

JCF,

First, I looked up those slam stats only quickly because I knew Fed didn’t have “multiple slams” at 22; however, I didn’t boil it down to months and exact ages.

But I should have. And that’s because in tennis a lot can happen in a few months - as matt’s and your posts show, Fed wasn’t where he was at 22 and 3 months vs. 22 and 11 months.

Second,

Some fitness / health issues are not as simply blamed on the person as you imply. Again, it’s not so black and white.

Djokovic was born with a deviated septum, for which he underwent corrective surgery prior to his break through 2007 season. But I have read that to correct this problem can sometimes take 2 surgeries.

If you look at the information I posted on the previous thread for you, you will be that over a roughly 4 year span, Rafa, Fed, and Novak’s wins / losses in 5 sets matches at the slams are incredibly close.

For people to say the number 3 player in the world is not fit or healthy seems a little unrealistic. Some people have stronger immune systems than others; that’s simple genetics, and it’s not easy to change.

Some people have respiratory issues that they’re born with and that are aggravated under certain conditions - look at your country’s swimmer, Grant Hackett; he has breathing issues too but he’s still a very successful athlete.

Or Murray, who was born with a split patella, so he will always have to be careful. Yes, he’s more fit now and has gained some weight, but he’ll always have to watch out for that knee; hence he travels with an ultrasound machine.

Anyway, my point is that, like age, health and fitness issues are not black and white. An athlete can do as much as possible in terms of prevention but some things are easily fixed and sometimes can be only worked around.

Nadal is dominating the sport and winning all of the big titles. That is great. However, one accomplishment in 2008 does not denigrate another player’s accomplishments in 2006 or 1995 or 1988 or … These guys compete in the history books to an extent, but mainly they play on the court in the here and now. What is past is already settled. Will Nadal have a better career than Federer? Maybe, but who really cares? Do people lose sleep over whether Connors or Lendl had a better career? If so, perhaps getting some perspective is in order.

Teams of the decade, players of a decade, GOAT’s etc. are not ever settled on the field of competition and that is what makes sports interesting IMHO not armchair experts pontificating about how no basketball player could ever match Wilt or MJ or Magic or…

Federer was asked if he liked being called the next Laver or Sampras and he said all of that was ok, but he preferred to be thought of as Roger Federer. I think that was a good answer. Similarly, Nadal is Rafa. A unique star in the universe of tennis. Does Sampras’ 7 Wimbledon titles take anything away from the memories of a 17 year old red headed kid winning Wimbledon? If not, then I suggest Rafa and Roger’s accomplishments alike might compliment the accomplishments of the other since they have tested and pushed each other, but I don’t see how they detract from one another.

I posted something in reply JCF, but it has disappeared.

The gist of it was this:

1) You’re right that age is not black and white; when I posted that stat I did only a quick atp check, not reducing fed and rafa’s ages to months. But months mean a lot in the ATP year, as matt’s and then your post show. Fed was less accomplished at 22 + 3 mos vs 22 + 11 mos.

2) But health / fitness is not black and white either. You have to factor in individual genetics. A player can work on fitness and health, but s/he is born with certain predispositions, conditions and immune systems; some of these cannot be overcome easily; some not at all.

Novak was born with a deviated septum for which he underwent corrective surgery prior to his break out 2007 season. However, I’ve read that this problem can sometimes take more than one surgery.

Some athletes suffer from respiratory issues more than others, and may have weaker immune systems. Certain playing conditions -heat, humidity - can aggravate those issues. Look at your country’s Grant Hackett; he has respiratory problems but it still a great athlete.

Or look at Murray, born with a split patella. He’s gotten fitter and gained some weight to compensate, but he will always have to be careful about his knee.

This all said, you should have a look at my reply re: Djoko and 5 sets on the previous thread - you’ll see that his win/loss in slam 5 setters over roughly the past 3-4 seasons is very similar to Rafa;s and Federer’s. Good, top players are not often pushed to 5 sets.

Dan Martin: Well said.

jane, thanks for the stats. I forgot to thank you in the other thread.

Most players have some physical weakness. For Nadal, it’s his knees. My point is, I don’t like it when people use excuses as though it’s his opponent’s fault that he had niggles or got tired. If Djokovic can get to #3 in the world, then he’s already shown that he can deal with the handicaps he has. He has beaten Nadal before, even when tired. In 07 they both made the finals in Indian Wells, then straight up met again in the QF of Miami. Both had played the same amount of tennis, which was a lot, and he won in straight sets.

The difference in the third set against Rafa in Beijing was slim. He was on serve at 4-5 in the third set and got broken. You can’t blame that on fatigue. He was still in it. Surely he wasn’t so tired that he couldn’t hold one more serve?

The ATP site always uses years and months and sometimes even days when comparing ages in their articles. That’s the only realistic way to measure age, because a year is too long to be the smallest unit of separation. We take all this for granted for simplicity and just say “I’m 25″ rather than “25 and 4 months”.

Ryan Says:

“Nadal cannot beat a healthy djokovic on hard courts.That applies for this year’s US open.In the olympics djok was tired after the monfils match along with the humid weather.”

If he wasn’t healthy, or was tired during the Olympics, what makes you think it will be any different at the US Open? Is he magically going to be healthy and not tired there? Why does Nadal even have to fear about Djokovic’s healthiness? The way things seem to go with him, he is never healthy anyway. The demands will be even greater at the stage when these two are able to meet. There will not be a day off between the final and semi final, and the matches will be best of 5 sets. If he can’t handle being challenged at the Olympics, he won’t be able to handle the US Open.

If Djokovic ever gets into a grand slam tournament where rain delay will force him to play back to back matches without rest, he is screwed. Or if he gets pushed to five sets. He will either lose it due to exhaustion, or he will win it but lose the next match, and you will be quick and ready with a glib excuse. It sounds like the stars have to align and he breezes past all his opponents if he’s to win a title. He made it to the AO final without dropping a set, dropped one to Tsonga and leveled it at a set all, and he got tired! He needed the trainer to fix him up. Unbelievable.

According to jane, he physically is born with a disadvantage, so I’m not going to like his chances of being healthy every time he meets Nadal. So your point is probably irrelevant (it only matters when he IS healthy and who knows how often that is).

JCF,

“The difference in the third set against Rafa in Beijing was slim. He was on serve at 4-5 in the third set and got broken. You can’t blame that on fatigue. He was still in it. Surely he wasn’t so tired that he couldn’t hold one more serve?”

I agree; it was a slim difference, and Djoko blew it by losing his serve and missing that overhead at 30-40. No excuses. He was tired, but he turned it around and played excellent for the durations of the match. I don’t think he was unhealthy at all.

==========

“If Djokovic ever gets into a grand slam tournament where rain delay will force him to play back to back matches without rest, he is screwed. Or if he gets pushed to five sets. He will either lose it due to exhaustion, or he will win it but lose the next match, and you will be quick and ready with a glib excuse. ”

Actually this happened at 2007 Wimbledon; he played back-to-back (day after day) matches against Hewitt (won in 4 tight sets), then Baggy (won in 5 even tighter sets, then finally met Rafa in the semis, and after 3 sets retired due to infected blisters on his foot, much like Rafa had in Rome this year. He had shoe and slippage issues at Wimbledon in 2007 but he played great.

========================

“According to jane, he physically is born with a disadvantage, so I’m not going to like his chances of being healthy every time he meets Nadal”

He can do things to help those breathing issues. But I do like Rafa’s chances against Djoko in best of 5 matches when the conditions are really hot or humid, IF Rafa gets the early lead. If Djoko starts fast, he can win in 3 or 4 sets no prob.

I didn’t mean to imply that Novak is not fit or healthy (be pretty difficult to get to number 3 in the world if he were), only that he has some weaknesses, as you point other players have too. As we can see from his 5 set win/loss record, he’s done as well as Fed or Rafa in the last few seasons under 5 set circumstances.

I guess we can only wait and see how the rivalries pan out.

Ryan, there’s really only one retard and that’s you ! Why can’t we just all enjoy the great tennis that we saw today in Beijing and be happy for the player that won.

And Sean, you’re totally off. The players present in Beijing do find a gold medal to be of equal or better value than a Grand Slam title and take representing their country serious at the ultimate event for any sports. Contrary to Andy Roddick and some other US players. Only for that reason already I would have loved seeing Blake win a Bronze medal.

Thanks JCF for straightening some things out about how normal people make comparisons.

This shouldn’t be about who’s better than the other, but about how great both Rafa and Fed are and how great some of the other up and coming players are.

However, if you wish to compare accomplishments, there is no doubt that Rafa blossomed earlier. It’s a simple fact. When comparing players you, indeed, need to take their exact ages as measure points.

When you do that only one player won more Grand Slams than Rafa at the exact same age.(Bjorn Borg with 6 as opposed to Rafa’s 5). Roger had one GS at 22 years and 1 month. Rafa won his first GS at barely 19. Roger was almost 22. Rafa won his first title at age 18 and reached no.5 that same year. At 18 Roger’s highest ranking was 38 and he won his first title 3 months prior to turning 20. Rafa reached no. 2 at barely 19, Roger’s highest ranking at that age was 14. His highest ranking at age 21 was no. 3 at which age Rafa was already in his third year holding no. 2

When it comes to titles, again, there’s no doubt about who’s beating who. Nadal today already holds 32 titles with still more than 9 months left until he turns 23 and potential titles and a possible sweep of the major clay tournaments prior to that. Roger ended his 22nd year with 19 titles

Federer only won one Masters Series titel prior to turning 23 (Hamburg at age 21). Nadal at age 22 already won 12 Masters Series titles - one more than Sampras in his whole career - and only two less than Federer at age 27. On top of that he should have a good shot at Indian Wells and Miami and an even better shot at winning Monte Carlo, Rome and Hamburg before he will be 23 in June next year.

I love both these players and what they mean for tennis and find it amazing how ‘real’ tennisfans apparently love trashing either one or the other or their fans and always seems eager to twist and diminish a win or great accomplishment by players they do not support. So, if after Rafa’s 7th hard court win you still need to find excuses and come up with that the Beijing courts probably were covered up clay courts, then go right ahead, but then you should really stop calling yourselves true tennisfans.

Jane,
Check out my piece in Planet. It’s titled “The Last of Federer as No. 1: A Tribute.”

JCF,
I have a comment for you on the other thread, “Nadal, Djokovic Renew Rivalry.”

Jane,

Novak’s sinus problems are very common and were corrected with simple corrective surgery already at the end of 2005 in Italy (Milan). He has mentioned in numerous interviews afterwards that his breathing/sinus problems were solved. So, this should not be used as an excuse neither by Djokovic nor his fans.

Henry,

Comparing stats at certain ages is dealing in facts; you’re right. I don’t think anyone is trying to diminish Roger’s vs. Fed’s accomplishments by comparing where they are and were at at 22 (+3 mos). At least I wasn’t. I wasn’t intending to trash anyone and participated in no name-calling.

The point, for me anyhow, is perhaps that Rafa has had a “Federer-like” year in 2008, winning so much and dominating since the beginning of the clay season, so naturally people will begin to make comparisons and speculate about what the future holds for Rafa.

Since he “blossomed early” he may even surpass Roger’s achievements; but then again, he may have a shorter career and Roger may bounce back and have a great 2009. We can’t know. But it’s interesting to speculate. That’s all.

Henry,

His septum was operated on at the end of 2006 I believe. Jankovic has had the same surgery.

I have a friend who had her septum operated on and it wasn’t entirely corrected, so I was thinking maybe Djoko’s isn’t either. But I have no factual evidence, except that he seems to still have breathing problems from time to time on the court.

Again, I wasn’t intending to use it as an excuse; if you read my response to JCF, you’ll note that I said “no excuses” = he blew it in the third set against Rafa by losing his serve when it mattered and it had nothing to do with his sinuses!

However, he has also mentioned that he has a slightly weakish immune system in interviews as well. So I was pointing out that some players are simply genetically predisposed.

Not trying to make excuses - obviously Rafa is the better player in their H2H meetings so far.

Fed said when he became number 1 that he wanted to make sure that whoever was #1 next took it from him by playing great tennis, winning big events and dominating the tour. He then said Rafa has done all of that and 100% deserves his #1 ranking. Pretty spot on assessment by Fed.

Sorry in my 4:57 post it should say “Rafa’s vs. Fed’s” not “Roger’s vs. Fed’s”

Jane,

definitely wasn’t referring to you as not being a tennisfan. Only my (later: 4.52 pm)post about Novak’s sinusproblems and surgery was a reaction to your post.

Rafa already had a breakout year between the ages 18 and 19. He won 12 titles then and a total of 16 prior to turning 20, equalling Bjorn Borg’s teenage record. And, yes, he’s definitely on a roll this year.

And for the Federer fans out there: Both Sampras and Agassi managed to win more GS titles after age 27 and Roger is actually ahead of Sampras right now with 12 GS titles. Pete had 11 and won his final three after age 27 and retired at age 31, so Roger can both equal or surpass him. And the same holds true for Rafa.

Jane,

the corrective surgery took place end 2005 in Milan. You’re right that he (demonstratively) breathes heavily after he’s sent running from side to side. I truly love his game and potential, but I must admit that I think his breathing is part of his strategy, just like his eternal bouncing. I am also a great fan of Jankovic and love her upbeat attitude. She always finds time for a smile on court - even after losing a point, but also she loves dramatizing her injuries, taking medical time outs and then happily plays on 3 or 4 more rounds.

Henry,

Okay I wasn’t sure on the date. I think the breathing is actually linked to anxiety, but I could be wrong. Thankfully, he’s cut down on the bouncing considerably; he’s down to about 7 or so pre-serve. I love his game too.

The three at the top, along with Murray, are pretty exciting to watch, and there are a few 19 year-olds that should be in the mix soon too. Fun stuff should be in store next year.

I think Jankovic is great but she should play less events, imo. She is dramatic, true - maybe those Serbians like their theatre? They’re sure good at tennis anyhow.

Dan,
That was nice of Fed.
Let me quote the original text: “if ever somebody were to take it away for me, he would have to play an incredible tennis schedule, you know, win the biggest tournaments, dominate the game basically, and then like this he can take No. 1. I didn’t want it to happen that I would play completely bad and somebody would pick up No. 1 in the world.
So I think Rafa totally deserves it.”

Shital,

I checked out your piece; you use some interesting and fitting adjectives to describe the two eras. I wonder if Roger will seriously consider playing doubles more regularly? He certainly did well with Stan - can’t get much better than Olympic Gold, beating the Byrans in the process.

Jane,

I’m almost sure anxiety is part of it too. Remember he called his PR manager (who also happens to be Rafa’s PR guy) after Raf-Rog’s Wimbledon final and said that he still needed to learn a lot after having seen that final. His mis-hit on match point against Rafa in Beijing was a good example of still lacking mental/anxiety control.

Sure thing the Serbs are great players and a sure thing too that theatre is part of their game.

Yes, lots of great tennis in store from the players you mention. I have always loved their tennis but never really appreciated Murray’s and Djokovic’on court (and sometimes off court) behaviour. However, there’s been a really positive change over the last few months and it has shown - especially in Murray’s tennis. I’m really looking forward to the time when these guys make sure and force us to only talk about the great tennis they are capable

what a year for nadal. smoking!

can hardly wait for the US Open. trying to find olympic tennis overage on TV was a moot exercise. with the US Open, it’s wall to wall coverage.

andrea - CBC had live streaming of most of it; I watched a good lot of it and it was well covered, so for future reference, or if you’re interested in watching any other events this time round - go to cbc.ca/olympics.

Del Potro won his fourth title in a row today, speaking of changing one’s “diet”…(though admittedly I haven’t seen him ingesting his trophies, or trying to).

After a long absence.. (too much sports, I didn’t even read e-mails)

All top 3 did their job and left China with medals! Congrats!!! Specially to Nadal, he played this tourney how he should play hardcourts, power, attack and killer strikebacks. Superb!

Guys, These age comparisons to me makes no sense, untill players retire.
Nadal became pro at 15, he took 4 years to win his first Grand Slam, and 7 to reach his prime (2008 age 22).
Fed became pro at 18 and took the same 4 years to win his first GS and 6 years to reach his prime (2006 age 24/25). In tennis what counts is the milestone. A normal tennis player last 8-10 years with high quality tennis. The Agassis, Santoros last 16-20 years. Unless Nadal plays untill 30, he and Fed are pretty the same in time to reach their primes.

Nadal would probably have 2-3 more years with this super level (Fed level) and then he will start to experienced what Fed is having now.

It’s amazing what he’s been doing, reaching semis or better in all tourneys excpet Dubai and Rotterdan, Rome doesn’t count.
Now I think he Djoko and Fed are equaly leveled for the US Open. Imagine the hype if he wins it, a possible carrer Golden Slam in sequence! Wow!

Regarding Fed I still don’t count him out yet, unless he lose before semis in US Open which doesn’t happen in the last 17 Slams. He is very hard to beat in Slams, usually losing to the eventual champion in tough matches (RG 2008 doesn’t count, he lost it in MC 2008).

This US Open will really shows us where he stands. The MS he was “allowed” to lose, but not in he last Slam of the season.

Sean,

Despite Murray’s loss at the Olympics, I think he’s another player we have to scan the draw for. Certainly Djokovic doesn’t want to see that guy is his section. And even if Djoke is in Rafa’s half, Roger will not be off the hook by any means if Murray’s in his section.

JCF,
“You are gradually getting older incrementally by the day.”

You forgot the hours,minutes,seconds and the fractions(micro/milli/nano etc).

More seriously,I agree with you that health/fitness/injury issues are an integral part of an athlete’s life and they have to learn how best to deal with them.These and other ‘excuses’ on various other counts can be used in discussions but should not be held against the winner of a match/tournament or to devalue their achievements.JMPD is playing and winning so many events on the trot.He will have only himself to blame if he isn’t fresh enough for the open.Fortunately,Nole has devised a very smart schedule this year and has worked on his fitness also.I don’t think his fitness is as big an issue as it was earlier.Of course,there is always room for improvement but his solid game also compensates for it somewhat imho.I agree with Jane that he needs to work more on the ‘mental’ side of it.
Rafa has won the gold fair and square and he was the best equipped to handle the conditions in Beijing.Congrats to Rafa and his fans on another brilliant campaign!
In fact it is Rafa who should be the most affected/tired given the amount of work he has put in this year.His superior mental and physical strength or the tough conditions/scheduling can’t be used as an “excuse” for his rivals’ defeat.Similarly,it was very unfair to Nole when mono/pre-event illness was cited as an excuse for Fed’s oz open sf loss.What control Nole had about who he played and in what condition?He-or any other pro- couldn’t have bothered less about it.

Continuous improvement in physical conditioning is a necessity these days.Fed practices in 45 degree Celsius and almost 100% humidity in Dubai.All his talent would probably have gone waste had he not worked so hard to become a better athlete.Rafa has worked very hard for it and is reaping the just rewards.In fact,in many matches his incredible athletic and mental ability prove decisive.His game is built around his unbelievable movement and never say die attitude on each and every point.On the other hand,he will also probably pay a price for the incredibly physical game he plays.There is always a trade off.In the long run,it might make the difference between winning many more slams and a long career versus a career shortened/afflicted by injury.So far he has managed it very well.
Borg was mentally-and possibly physically- spent at 25.His early retirement can’t be used as an excuse for his smaller slam tally compared to Pete’s tally for instance.He paid the price for the incredible effort he put in to achieve so much success in such a short period.Henin’s is a more recent example.We can not devalue the other girls’ achievements by citing Henin’s absence as an excuse.They can’t be blamed if Henin wasn’t “good enough” to continue.

Dan Martin

“Federer was asked if he liked being called the next Laver or Sampras and he said all of that was ok, but he preferred to be thought of as Roger Federer”

It’s funny, Phelps said something similar regarding Spitz just some hours ago!

Daniel,

“Guys, These age comparisons to me makes no sense, untill players retire.”

I agree.Sort of.However,there’s really not much harm speculating about the probability of Rafa’s possible eventual tally based on an already solid “launchpad” as he enters his prime.We are all excited by Rafa’s tremendous success and comparisons are inevitable even if not always meaningful.

Jane,
Any news whether JMPD has withdrawn from New Heaven or not?It appears that he wants more of the similar “diet”.

” Based on probability, you have to figure Novak will wind up in Roger’s section this time ”

Sorry Sean, but I am not sure that is true. Based on fairness, maybe we could make a case. Probability, I am sorry I need mathematical proof! If you are interested in a geeky discussion, let me know how probability dictates that? Remember probability doesnt know Roger and Rafa have swapped places.

Let us assume you think the no.1 has had the better luck so far in not drawing the no.3 as often as the no.2 So no.1 drawing no.3 more often from now on only makes sense logically/ mathematically (?). Unfair? Totally. Logically inaccurate? I dont think so.

To explain my point mathematically, I need help from any probability gurus.

Hi Noel,

JMDP is still on the Pilot Pen draw (seeded third), but if he was smart he’d withdraw and refresh for the Open. With these 4 straight titles, as it is, he moves into the top twenty and will be ranked no. 19 in the world tomorrow.

It is official,
A new king has arrived:

this is from ATP site, 8 pm, ET, Sunday Aug 17, 2008:

1 Nadal , R. 6700
2 Federer , R. 5930
3 Djokovic , N. 5105
4 Ferrer , D. 2865
5 Davydenko , N. 2700
6 Murray , A. 2415
7 Nalbandian , D. 1975
8 Roddick , A. 1845
9 Blake , J. 1825
10 Wawrinka , S. 1695

VAMOS!

Just add one note here:
“a new king has arrived” does not mean “the king is dead”! It means the old king has passed the crown to the new one and will always remembered for the high bars he set for this sport and his incredible achievements. Of course a fight to take the crown back is also expected. As fans, we are just lucky to have all these starts at the top.

VAmos RAfa!

It is high time to turn the page, so to speak, in tennis. Given how few points Nadal has to defend, he has a good chance to pass the ‘7000′ marks. He can scale new height and we will all forget Federer.

There will be no media request for the new No.2, so Fed will spend more quality time with Ana Wintour and focus on his double career or a modeling career.

Jane,
Thanks for the response.I agree JMPD should withdraw from Pilot Pen.He admitted himself this week that he was very tired.I guess he will take a bit more time to make his mind given that he has a first round bye.Actually,I don’t mind him playing this week because I picked him in my Atp fantasy tennis team for this week.

FedEx, great catch. I was looking at it with Nadal still in the bottom half which is no longer the case.

In the 12 events the big three have played in this year Novak’s been on Rafa’s half of the draw in eight of them. Because it’s a coin flip as to where Novak will fall each time, that trend should gravitate to 50/50.

However, with Rafa now swapping places with Roger that means Novak will likely to continue to land in Rafa’s half.

Beijing - SAME SIDE
Cincy - SAME
Toronto - SAME
Wimbledon
French Open - SAME
Hamburg - SAME
Rome
Monte Carlo
Miami - SAME
Indian Wells - SAME
Dubai - SAME
Australian Open

Zola,
Congrats on your man’s ‘official’ coronation and for the gold as well!I saw on the other thread that the champagne started flowing well before the ‘official’ announcement.
As a tennis fan,I love the situation prevailing at the moment and fervently hope that Murray comes to the ‘big’ party as early as possible.If Fed can recover his confidence,the next few years may well turn out to be extremely exciting and unpredictable.

It is nice to see the gap between 1-2 is bigger than that between 2-3. I am rooting for Djokovic to overtake Fed at No.2. We will have more Nadal-Djokovic finals. When could Djokovic get to No.2?

People need to stop making excuses about how Nadal is dominating EVERYTHING right now. He’s dominated the clay and grass court seasons, and now he’s dominating hardcourts. You can’t excuse that. But please, explain it. How is Nadal so f*cking good?

“Because it’s a coin flip as to where Novak will fall each time, that trend should gravitate to 50/50. ”

That is theoretically true, but in coin flip experiments, there is a good chance that there are a good no. of one-sided streaks even at high number of flips such as 1000 or so….

So the question really is how many is many?

Definitely, Roger and Rafa swapping their positions complicates the already complex experiment!

Talking of coin flips, see this :

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1697475

Simba, people will forget Federer? Bjorn Borg shows up at Wimbledon and gets treated like royalty despite his personal financial failures, despite Sampras winning 7 Wimbledon titles, despite ….. The point is the great ones are never forgotten. Nadal will not be forgotten, but please Simba show some sophistication. If you are indeed a member of the species Panthera leo I take it back as being able to type and access the internet is indeed sophisticated for a lion.