This just shows that Yannick should have listened to his parents. That age old advice that virtually ALL parents tell their children, and i’m sure his would have done the same:

‘Son don’t EVER make accusations against others without any firm proof. Don’t say things in public that you CANNOT back up.

Especially DO NOT ACCUSE others of wrongdoing when all you really have is your PREJUDICE against them.

Since otherwise my dear child, people will laugh at you for being an ingorant fool and papa will be tempted to spank your sorry behind for being a silly little fool.’

October 16th, 2012 at 11:30 am

Brando. Great post. Lol

October 16th, 2012 at 11:49 am

Pretty sure my parents never told me that. At least he’s not backing down like tons of cowards in the media like to do. Tennis commentators are too PC. Even if he’s wrong, he has every right to voice his opinion. If Patrick McEnroe is to say “I think tennis is 90% clean with a few offbeat dopers here and there,” most people wouldn’t criticize him for voicing his opinion. Even though, technically, there’s no proof of that either. Maybe Noah is biased or prejudiced or whatever, but he’s not entirely offbeat, either.

Usually no one wants to be the bearer of bad news but in tennis no one likes to see one, either. At this point, I think it’s dumb for Noah or anyone else to waste time singling out a nation or a specific group of people. Doping is widespread. But seriously, it’s naive to just criticize the guy with an opinion without maybe first doing some research and seeing why he’d have this opinion in the first place.

October 16th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

Brando well said,although i can almost guarantee without a moments hesitation that this thread,will be choc a bloc full of comments from the usual predictable bunch throwing around unfounded accusations,so your wasting your time im afraid,wait and see by this time tomorrow,3,2,1 lol.

October 16th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

I leave the doping charges to WADA and don’t have any comments as to who’s doping or who isn’t.

However, since Armstrong is being mentioned, I’ll just add what I’ve recently read in an article on his ban, in which the CVAC machine was mentioned with respect to it’s effectiveness and how it disguises EPO use when an athlete uses it. The article also mentioned WADA’s concerns on the CVAC’s use, and their statement that the machine is not in the spirit of the sport, but don’t intend to do anything at this time. Quite interesting .

October 16th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

There is a French proverb that says “Qui s’excuse s’accuse.” In other words, whoever tries to find faults in others is covering his own faults. Noah was probably high on drugs when he beat Lendl & then Wilander to win the French Open in 1983. He was not good enough to beat those players. His win in 1983 was like a lottery win. It was totally unexpected & not supposed to happen. Even Gaston Gaudio’s French Open win in 2004 was less surprising than Noah’s win in 1983. Now, all he is trying to do is make himself feel ok for what he did 30 years ago by accusing others of cheating. Sure, there are lots of cheaters in sports (and – let’s not be naïve – probably in tennis, as well) but Noah is blowing it out of proportion to hide/suppress his personal shame.

October 16th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

Sorry but Yannick is an irresponsible buffoon. He continues to damage his standing or what remains of it.

@ Alok – so is that a unsubtle implication is that Nole and Michael Phelps’ use of the CVAC could be suspicious?

October 16th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

I believe Michael Phelps used it 24/7/365 before his Olympic performances both this year and four years ago. Christina McHale is a fan of the pod and so are some NFL players. If Novak was using it in New York this year it obviously wasn’t working. They should ban it or shut up.

October 16th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

‘They should ban it or shut up.’

My thought is the same on this particular issue.

October 16th, 2012 at 3:24 pm

“There is a French proverb that says “Qui s’excuse s’accuse.” In other words, whoever tries to find faults in others is covering his own faults.”

That’s very “in other words”.
Actually what the saying means is that people who apologize for something are stating guilt on the subject they are apologizing about. Don’t think Noah as apologized about much yet…

October 16th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

you can also look at that french saying in another way :

everyone except Fed’s fans go on the defensive as soon as the word “dope” is mentioned! guilty much?

why doesn’t the WADA/ATP do some probing like armstrong case and find out if the spannish athletes are clean? after all, noah is a 1-time GS champ, and Hall of famer(?)

I would welcome it. instead rafa/murray and i dont know if djokovic fans are also doing this bad-mouthing of noah, they will not say one word about keeping sport/tennis clean.

October 17th, 2012 at 12:57 am

The point is after fed’s generation : rafa’s generation is plenty to abusing rules – time violation, injury time-out abuse, on-court coaching and so on. you look at fed’s generation and generations before and these were not such wide-spread issues. It looks more and more that the players of a younger generation would do ANYTHING to win. such a mind-set is always the 1st step towards doping. I really hope WADA or someone conducts an inquiry and I am sure we will have some interesting findings. I dont know if rafa fans want the same though.

At this point, I would believe Noah, who has actually played the game than a bunch of rafa’s fans who get psychotic at the mention of the word doping. get a grip guys!

October 17th, 2012 at 1:02 am

^ I don’t know if Rafa fans want the same though”. Bring it on and then we can finally separate the wheat from the chaff!!

October 17th, 2012 at 3:21 am

After what happened in the case of Armstrong, everybody should at least keep their mind open to the possibility of tennis players(the usual suspects as well as the not so usual ones) doping even if they are not getting caught.

October 17th, 2012 at 7:33 am

It looks like Nike has dropped Armstrong and I’m sure there biggest nightmare is some tennis star being charged with doping as well.

Anyone trying to “right the sport” is facing an enormous uphill battle not only with naive tennis fans but with the big money sponsors who want everything hushed.

Tennis clean?…PLEEZ!!!I hope Noah doesn’t give up and that others with inside info come forward as well.

October 17th, 2012 at 8:52 am

Exactly what “inside info” does Noah have or has shared with anybody? Does he intend sharing “it” with anyone?

Enough with the premature ejaculation……….puleeze.

when does tennis start, anyone?

October 17th, 2012 at 9:01 am

I just saw the good news about Nike dropping Armstrong. I couldn’t believe they stood by him even after the USADA report.

October 17th, 2012 at 9:07 am

If Armstrong has been found out, shouldn’t the Americans be the suspects? No one has accused Federer of doping so his fans don’t have to defend him.

October 17th, 2012 at 9:51 am

The thing is, Spain doesn’t achieve much in athletics and only one spaniard is at the top of tennis same as only one Swiss, one Serb and one Brit. Apart from Rafa, Spain and France are about equal in tennis rankings currently, so what is Noah’s justification?

October 17th, 2012 at 9:56 am

What’s happening to Armstrong is despicable. Like he’s the only guy in cycling who’s ever doped, right? He still has done more for cancer awareness and research than probably anyone in the world.

October 17th, 2012 at 10:14 am

What happened to Armstrong? Is he serving a prison sentence? Have his millions been taken away from him? His life is made. In fact, this episode will probably encourage others to follow in his footsteps because the punishment is not stringent enough. You lose your titles and reputation but you are a free man with your hefty bank balance largely intact. He seems blase about it all. There is no remorse or contrition. This was not some one-off weak moment. It was done systematically and consistently for a very long period. What HE did was despicable even if cycling has had a doping problem for long. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat.

October 17th, 2012 at 11:31 am

Please, not the cancer awareness cop out! The irony is, there’s a strong likelihood that the cancer was caused by doping. Anyway, his charity work is commendable. The deceiving of cycling fans around the world and his own fans, the bullying of his team mates – all that and more (read the report) is what is truly despicable.

October 17th, 2012 at 11:44 am

“The irony is, there’s a strong likelihood that the cancer was caused by doping”

That was uncalled for!

October 17th, 2012 at 11:50 am

The Cycling Tour is the doping sport king of the hill, it has a very well documented history of cheaters, both the athletes and the governing body, nothing new about that. Its roots are in europe, specifically Spain and France(Grand Tour), hence the nit pick back and forth accusations. Sad day as Lance did a lot positive work with his notoriety…..up to now.

October 17th, 2012 at 11:59 am

@ skeezer – That was uncalled for!

Not at all. It has been proven that human growth hormone is linked to a variety of cancers. His cancer doctors testified that he admitted to using them before his illness. There’s a load of articles about this.

October 17th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

And even if HGH didn’t cause the cancer, it would have accelerated it.

October 17th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

A strong likelihood? I’d love to see the research to back this claim up.

October 17th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

Interesting tidbit ….. I picked this up on the newswire (CNN)

“He started a small group to raise money for cancer called the Lance Armstrong Foundation in 1997. Since then, 84 million bright yellow Livestrong wristbands have been distributed.”

Didn’t he start the whole wristband thingy?

October 17th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

A cheat is a cheat is a cheat? But is it really cheating when everyone else is doing the same thing? When that teammate of Armstrong’s revealed that Armstrong was a doper, he said he was right there doping with him. Why should Armstrong be stripped of the titles he won against equal opposition?

I’m sorry, the cancer cop out? So it’s not true that the Livestrong foundation established by Armstrong has been a monumental fixture in the hopes for finding a cure? Obviously doping, something that SO MANY OTHER ATHLETES HAVE DONE AND CONTINUE TO DO means that he is simply the most insufferable human being alive and all the good he has done to help out mankind is simply a cop out. We still don’t have concrete evidence that Armstrong even doped, but let’s say it’s true. Using EPO and blood transfusions is risky and harmful only to Armstrong, it doesn’t effect anyone else. That he was successful as a result of these actions (debatable), he hurt the image of his sport, but as far as the general population goes, no serious damage. But Livestrong continues to help millions of people every day in their fight against cancer. But yeah, it’s just a silly cop out.

What if one day Federer and Nadal held a press conference together in which they revealed that they have been doping this entire time and have been helping other players on tour get the best drugs to make sure everyone is on the same page. That will destroy the image of the sport, but will it take away all the good they do through their charitable foundations? All the UNICEF stuff Federer does and all the things Nadal does (I don’t know the specifics but I know he does a lot)? No, because these athletes have done a tremendous about to actually benefit the general population. Doping only hurts them and their sport.

But this whole roundabout makes a lot of sense. Let’s bash Noah for making accusations and then let’s bash Armstrong for allegedly doping. G-d forbid we put anything into perspective. Despicable.

October 17th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

So Lance did a lot for cancer.That doesn’t make him a saint.But neither does doping make him a monster. He doped and now he pays the price by being dropped by sponsors and stripped of his medals.I see nothing wrong with him being held accountable for his actions. He knew if caught what would happen yet he rolled the dice one too many times.
It’s called arrogance!

October 17th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

So Ben Pronin, is it OK then to let all athletes use drugs and cheat but that would be OK if they do charitable work on the side? Only those who don’t do charity work are reprehensible and should be punished. Somehow the logic in this escapes me.

October 17th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

The PED issue is going to remain in all sports until the take away the money they got. I mean, in the end, that is what it is all about , no?

If someone gets on the stuff, becomes amazing as on it, then gets a 50 mil contract, then gets caught, then gets penalized. BUT, they keep all there money they have earned under the PED. Go figure.

October 17th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

Wow. I’m seen some moral equivocation in my time but this takes the cake. So because a thief sets up a charity he deserves to be forgiven when he’s caught?

If Nadal & Federer admitted to doping it would be earth shattering to me. I wouldn’t give a hoot if they raised billions for UNICEF. Likewise, if Usain Bolt was discovered to have used. Ben Johnson and Marion Jones achieved a measure of redemption because they came clean. Armstrong continues to deny it despite the mountain of evidence.

What’s despicable about what’s happening to him? Nike have pulled their sponsorship? BFD. He earned millions of dollars from them while perpetuating a lie. Boo hoo.

October 17th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

Armstrong is being punished. Although has he been stripped of his titles yet? Because I know the USADA has been pretending they’re going to do that but they don’t actually have the power.

But I ask again, is it really cheating if everyone else is doing the same thing? And, we still have no legitimate proof. All we have is a guy who got sick of being persecuted and harassed and basically decided it wasn’t worth all the fighting. Yeah it’s probably an admittance of guilt but it’s not a guarantee.

My main point is that no one (mainly the media) likes to take the moderate approach. Like Stella said, he’s not a monster for doping but he is definitely being treated as such. Is it really fair to say he probably got cancer because of doping so his foundation is a cop out? And, he’s not even competing anymore! What’s done is done. If Armstrong hadn’t won those 7 Tour de France’s then some other doper would have.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like Armstrong really shouldn’t be punished, at all. He put his body at risk by doping. But he did the same thing everyone else did. The punishment should go to the anti-doping organizations and the sports organizations themselves for allowing this to go on and, most of the time, keeping it hush hush. Because if Federer and Nadal turned out to be doping, everyone would wonder how the hell they could have gotten away with it and the answer is pretty simple. All of the sudden the USADA seems like such a great organization that’s doing a great job in catching and persecuting dopers. It’s not. It’s an organization made up of a bunch of a-holes who just want to bring down big names because that’s what tickles their fancies. Instead of bringing down a guy who was doping for about 2 decades why don’t they focus on preventing doping from happening in the first place. No way, too much work.

October 17th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

“..is it really cheating if everyone else is doing the same thing?..”

I don’t even have to think to give you the answer to this. Yes, it is still cheating. It does not justify one’s doing so just because somebody else is doing it. There is some morally askew in believing it would be justified to do something evil just because another person is also doing it. Athletes who use performance enhancing drugs should not be commended for putting their bodies at risk. They do it not because their goal is to perform some charitable work for others. They do it to attain glory and amass personal wealth.

October 17th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

I do not care how many other cyclists are or were doping. One wrong does not justify another wrong especially considering the massive operation that has been exposed. I consider doping to be a very serious crime because it really damages the very foundations of fair play. If Federer and Nadal are found out to be doing the same thing, I would say the same thing. Ben Pronin is putting up a shocking defense here. These athletes have done whatever charitable work they have done primarily because they have been so successful in their sport. All the money, endorsements, fame, adulation and charity work is a RESULT of their success as sports persons. Their success has enabled them to do whatever charity they do. If that success is enabled by doping, I would be absolutely outraged. I like them primarily for their success as reasonably fair and hard-working sports persons and not for their charity. There are many great people in the world who do much much more for charity and devote their entire lives to noble causes without getting a fraction of the credit these athletes do. Ben Pronin is justifying doping-induced success so long as some charity is done to atone for the crime. It is like justifying robbery so long as you distribute some of the loot among the needy. There is no possibility left to presume that it could be partly a PR and/or commercial exercise. Armstrong seems to have succeeded in his endeavors since his charity work clearly has many fans who are willing to forgive him due to that reason. He probably anticipated well in advance that he would be exposed one day and that charity would come in handy in damage control.

The talk of “alleged” doping is disturbing despite the nature, scale and sophistication of the operation as pointed out by the authorities. Armstrong has chosen not to defend himself. This is, indirectly, an admission of guilt. The evidence, especially eye witness accounts, is such that he can not really put any defense. He has wisely chosen not to defend himself because it could become a soap opera and the media would be following it for months with all the juicy details becoming public one by one. He probably estimates that this thing will die down soon enough and will be out of public imagination pretty quickly.

October 17th, 2012 at 3:21 pm

@Everyone is entitled to my opinion: Spain has not accomplished much. Seriously? Back to back European championships in soccer, a world cup title between, countless victories in cycling, 3 players in tennis in the top 10 at one point at the same time, the list goes on and on my friend. Yeah, Spain has some serious issues

October 17th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

I like this logic :

We have not conclusively proved armstrong doped.

BUT

It is conclusively proven that all athletes dope.

if lance armstrong is innocent, why did he transfer millions of dollars to that doping doc’s account? was he donating that as charity to sponsor research for doping without being caught.

go check the evidence against armstrong. it is monumental!

sadly most people, once they get into cult mentality will not allow anything wrong to be said against their deity. this is how all armstrong fans act. it is hard for them to admit his cheating because that would mean they are all m0r0ns for having worshipped him all these years!

October 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

If you’re calling me a fan of Armstrong’s, that’s kind of weird since I don’t really care about cycling at all.

Armstrong isn’t the only prominent athlete to be connected with a doctor who’s involved with doping. In fact, there are tons of Spanish doctors who have been involved in doping rings.

Ok so Armstrong is a cheater. But again, if it wasn’t Armstrong doping and winning those Tour de France’s, then it would have been someone else doping and winning. At least Armstrong has done a lot of good with the wealth and glory he attained through cheating. Lesser of two evils, I guess. Not necessarily a defense. All I’m trying to point out is that it’s unfair to rip through a person just for doping. It’s not an evil act.

And as for the punishment, again, I think it’s a complete waste of time for the USADA to spend so much time and money trying to bring down a single individual who indulged in the same exact act as everyone around him. Instead of worrying about retired athletes (Armstrong, Bonds) why not worry about current and even up and coming athletes who might get involved in doping. Am I crazy to think that it is a lot better to prevent doping than it is to ridicule someone who slipped through the system?

I am in no way defending doping. And I’m not defending Armstrong for doing it. It’s more like, I don’t care that he did it at this point. And seriously, what is the point of stripping titles? So when you go to look up past champions you see a bunch of blank spaces online? Big deal. We all know who won those titles, doping or not. But it’s not the individual’s fault, it’s the system. It’s the organization. Nike is apparently shocked that Armstrong has been lying to them all this time. But it’s not only Armstrong that lied. The UCI surely knew that Armstrong was doping, just like it still knows it’s athletes dope. They do nothing. As long as everyone makes their buck, who cares about doping?

Picture this: young guy starts playing [insert sport here] when he’s 4 years old. He’s got a great talent. He plays throughout his childhood in junior competitions and excels in all of them. Finally, his lifelong dream of becoming a professional comes true at the age of 18-24. It’s evident to everyone he has the talent to not only be a pro, but to excel and become one of the best in [insert league here]. But wait, there’s a catch! Even though he has the skill, he’s not physically fit enough to compete with the elite players yet. So he works hard in the gym, but 2 years go by and he still isn’t even close to the level of fitness as the other guys. Finally he finds out why, everyone else is doping. So now he’s faced with a dilemma, become a doper, a cheater, a fraud, and achieve the results everyone expects of him and that he’s always dreamed of? Or give it up and settle into mediocrity or, maybe even just retire?

I have a pretty cynical view (everyone is doping).
But it’s not the individuals fault, it’s the system and the organizations and the powers that be.

October 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

How do you know everyone is doping?

You say they have not conclusively proved that armstrong is doping [nevermind the crystal clear evidence submitted by the lawyers], yet you want us to believe your claim that everyone is doping?

Where is the evidence. Has you or anyone compiled evidence like the USADA did against armstrong?

October 17th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

The system is made of individuals. The system doesn’t get corrupt without the individuals getting corrupt.

October 17th, 2012 at 5:07 pm

I think armstrong did not just dope. he forced others to dope. Please read the report that USADA submitted. It was like the mafia.

I am cynical too, yet if we let bad deeds go unpunished, we would soon start living in the wild. killing each other like barbarians. There is a line to be not crossed and beyond that people should be punished. I agree with people who called for more serious punishment. possibly life imprisonment and maybe more. That will make them fall in line. REAL FAST!

October 17th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

“it’s unfair to rip through a person just for doping. It’s not an evil act.”

“And as for the punishment, again, I think it’s a complete waste of time”

OK. I get it now. Sorry for arguing. Your presumption is that the entire sporting world is doping and not only that but the fact that everybody is doing the same exact thing. An absolute level playing field, eh. It is a perfectly normal act to do so and let us not be so unfair to the “cheats” because, actually, they are not cheating. They simply are not to blame for this. Anybody except them. Since everybody is doping in exactly the same manner, we should judge them not on the basis of their achievements in their sports but on the basis of the charity work that they do. So, let us start debating how much charity Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and other tennis players are doing. Actually, it is not a bad idea. The GOAT debates, the Fedal wars, the H2Hs have sort of become boring. Charity is much more fashionable.

October 17th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

“…But it’s not the individuals fault, it’s the system and the organizations and the powers that be.”

There’s another line of thinking which I detest…when caught red-handed, don’t admit guilt, don’t apologize, blame it on somebody else instead.

Cheating is cheating. I guess that to some, like Ben Pronin, fame and fortune count more than integrity. That is why he would condone cheating if there is somebody else who is doing it. Cheat your way to success. Then do charity work. Some people appreciate that. Not me.

October 17th, 2012 at 5:32 pm

By the way Ben, if you have a child who is very smart and among the top in his class. He studies very hard but another child keeps getting better grades and your son found out that he was cheating, what would you advise your son?

October 17th, 2012 at 5:38 pm

In my mind, cheating is cheating. It doesn’t matter if it’s a little or a lot, it doesn’t matter if everyone else is doing it. It’s morally wrong and a detriment to all sports. Period.

There is no redeeming yourself by donated your ill-gotten money. Or starting tons of charities, so you can give money that you cheated to get. BS. Right is right and wrong is wrong. And doping is just wrong.

As to Noah’s comments, I don’t listen until he has hard evidence. If doping is so widespread, doesn’t he think the French are doping too? He sounds like sour grapes unless he has hard evidence, which I have not seen nor heard about.

October 17th, 2012 at 7:28 pm

I think this conversation is good, that is as to us Tennis fans. Why? By us the Fan, just discussing it, no matter what opinion you may have, is telling the Industry that the Fan is concerned, aware. I would hope our sport becomes a model for the pure athlete. I hope not that one day its all exposed that doping is rapid in the Game and we turn into the Cycling world. THAT would be a shame, and would wreck the Sport. I speak with pride to my friends about how Tennis athletes are some of the most talented and fit players in the world. Hope that remains true.

October 17th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

@ skeezer….For once, we agree. :-)) Will wonders never cease?

October 17th, 2012 at 8:26 pm

If Noah, or any ex and current tennis player, really care about the sport they would DO the right thing i.e.:

1. Go public and report to the relevant authorities SPECIFIC details of dope taking they have seen, witnessed or been part of in the sport, WITH NAMES. This is what cyclists like Hincapie and Leipheimer have done. #respect.

2. Stop spreading alarm and despondency for some cheap headlines.

Next!

October 18th, 2012 at 2:05 am

……one more thing: most sports fans are not fools, they can tell a smear campaign from the truth. Of course there will always be the flat-earth brigade, but gullibility is not a crime, no?

October 18th, 2012 at 2:15 am

I just find it very funny that an Amerivan doping institution like USADA has ut so much effort in trying to take down an athlete who has stopped cycling altogether who is retired.

So they avoid the real doping issues in other sports like American football, baseball etc. Are thos sports to big to handle. I mean you never ever here a campaigne as big as Armstrongs been put up for the NFL teams. Every team in that league uses doping on large bases. How is this possible?

October 18th, 2012 at 4:08 am

I guess because Spain has been so successful in sports, they “HAVE” to be cheating somehow! God Forbid anyone believe that you can win sports and not be doping!!

All this talk about Spain’s ALLEGED massive doping problem (since no one has produced ANY shred of proof )and now, Sienna (of course, LOL)has added the USA to that list, some have added France………… bottom line is WHERE IS THE PROOF OF ALL OF YOUR ACCUSATIONS OTHER THAN THOSE NAMED IN CYCLING WHICH ONLY COVERS ONE SPORT!!!!

To randomly or falsely allege such an accusation can be damging to a sport and detrimental to one’s career. As smart ones have said on here that others obviously have refused to accept, I would tread carefully and quit accusing nations or people unless you have proof!

October 18th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Many have just assumed massive doping goes on in sports.

Like Brando, I have a good saying too:

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME

October 18th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

If you cheat at anything in life and are caught you are held accountable. LA is no different! He is an adult who made a conscious choice to dope. .
So doping is not about being the bad guy. It’s about choice!

October 18th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

Some people are saying why he doesn’t just come clean and admit he doped. But a lawyer said that because he gave testimony under OATH and denied everything he is libel for perjury, which could re4sult in a prison term.

He has put himself in a very difficult position !

October 18th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

There is one thing that can be taken serious and that Spain is the most corrupt country to ever covered and protected their athletes who are doping.

Not just 1 sports or player but form the whole mikmak top to bottem. Every range of sport possible.

October 18th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

Is Messi a doper? What about Xavi and Iniesta and his teammates? Does anyone know the truth? How can anyone play every minute of every game without showing signs of fatigue?

October 18th, 2012 at 8:04 pm

^^^^

“How can anyone play every minute of every game without showing signs of fatigue?”

Are you talking about football, or what you call soccer if you are American? If you are, you clearly do not watch it and know nothing about how it’s played, specifically Barcelona and it’s style of play, tiki-taka……….

@sienna, we heard you twice the first time: you do not like Spain, it’s people, much less it’s sports stars……….good luck with that.

October 19th, 2012 at 1:33 am

Steve 27

Ask Contador

October 19th, 2012 at 2:19 am

Or Steve27 could just as easily ask: Randy Barnes, Barry Bonds,
Greg Foster, Marion Jones, Floyd Landis, LaShawn Merritt or any of the 20+ baseball players who tested positive. The list of dopers in athletics shows more USA cases than Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Does that mean doping is rife in all sports in the USA? I don’t think so. This innuendo can cut both ways.

October 19th, 2012 at 5:03 am

^^^^^why go back that far? He can ask Lance Armstrong, who is as American as apple pie!

October 19th, 2012 at 6:10 am

Ooops, I forget, Lance is not a doper, a drug pusher, a liar, a bully and a fraud………..we know because he said so under oath.

October 19th, 2012 at 6:13 am

Steve 27 Says:
Is Messi a doper?

You know that Messi got growth hormones injected when he was in puberty? I bet that can certainly be called doping.

So what happens in the spanish locker room might not be aplejuice and multishakes alone.

October 19th, 2012 at 8:28 am

SPaim is corrupt and they have covered up on a large bases teh doping activity.
Severalsports (olympic) team etc are very suspicious. Look at tennis! Certainly the results of so many players comming through is a direct result of cheating on a large scale from early age. Their is no real plan just sufficient funding (there is no money?) for cheating

October 19th, 2012 at 8:32 am

It is just intertwined in their DNA. Cheating, doping, bribe is part of life in spain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYmg1TF56U

October 19th, 2012 at 8:35 am

Didn’t operation puerto involve clinics in Madrid and Zaragoza? It is not about one country being better than the other. All advanced nations’ athletes are likely to have much easier access to PEDs. It is the stringency of the anti-doping measures taken by the authorities that should distinguish the good ones and the bad ones. A more lenient culture may not lead to many convictions. USA is a big country compared to Spain and, ceteris paribus, more US athletes are likely to get caught. Maybe the US authorities are sincere but a lot of athletes are still able to evade the net. It is a question of whether strict law enforcement leads to better prevention, detection, reportage and conviction or whether lax law enforcement leads to low ‘official’ crime rates whereas the reality could be different. Some countries have a very permissive doping culture. I do not know if Spain’s culture is more permissive than USA’s. I am not informed enough to conclude one way or the other. One thing is for sure. The Armstrong case shows again that a lack of positive test should not lead us to believe that everything is perfectly hunky-dory.

October 19th, 2012 at 10:06 am

“The Armstrong case shows again that a lack of positive test should not lead us to believe that everything is perfectly hunky-dory.”

Thank you!

Polo, have you ever cheated on a test? I have. I’m not really ashamed of it, either. Maybe that says a lot about my morals. However, I wouldn’t equate that to doping. It’s not the cheating part that bothers me, it’s the physical damage done to ones body that I think is the bad part. People are always doing whatever it takes to get ahead. Athletes attain fame and glory through doping. Why is that such a terrible thing? Businessmen and politicians have been corrupt since the beginning of time and we still let them run the world. Mitt Romney, a presidential candidate for the most powerful country in the world, refuses to release all of his tax information because it’s pretty clear that he doesn’t pay half as much taxes as people who don’t even come close to his tax bracket. He still has a chance to lead us though.

So big deal. Armstrong is famous and rich because he doped. But who knows what kind of health repercussions he’ll face in his future as a consequence of doping? There isn’t even enough extensive research to know what blood doping, EPO, steroids, HGH, etc, do to the human body after a lot of abuse.

But seriously, though. Why are we allowed to say “yes, Armstrong doped” without positive tests, but when it comes to accusing someone else, it’s “SHOW ME A POSITIVE TEST.”

Ok, I’m assuming all sports are plagued with doping big time. But, juljo, what are you doing? You’re just ASSUMING sports are generally clean and there are only a few dopers. If you want to use the term assume, that is, it definitely goes both ways.

October 19th, 2012 at 11:37 am

Ben, I never said I assumed sports are generally clean. What I said is that is a dangerous thing to randomly accuse a nation, a sport or any person without proof. Sienna makes my point very well in that she has always accuses players of wrongdoing but always refuses to provide any proof. Hers is blatant prejudice but she tries to present it as proof, just because she says it.

I have a degree as a Medical Technologist and for 15 years i performed Chain Of Custody drug screens for workers, cops and athletes. Is it possible to cheat…..yes. Also it depends on what the test requested is actually looking for ( i.e. won’t be positive for a drug if they aren’t testing for it). Many factors go into drug screening. Part of what got Armstrong was the tons of corrobating evidence (fellow teammates)entered against him.

Do I think there is doping in sports. Yes I do. Do I think any one nation is worse than another, No. But certain people here find it too easy to just accuse someone just because they don’t like them or their nation. I refuse to falsely accuse anyone of something this serious unless there is proof, because the fallout, especially if it turns out untrue, can be damaging beyond repair.

October 19th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

I agree, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse a person or nation just because of personal dislike. But there is a good amount of evidence of Spain doing a lot of fishy things. Lots of Spanish doctors, lots of weird cover ups. Spain’s sudden rise in becoming one of the greatest sports nation’s in recent years is something to look at. Is Spain the only nation whose athletes are doping? Absolutely not. Not even close. But there’s a reason why Spain is often mentioned by accusers.

I kind of wonder if Noah really thinks Spain is the only nation with a doping problem. Or if he thinks no one in France dopes. I don’t think so. I think Noah might be upset that Spain’s doping system is better than France’s. Or they have better doctors or whatever it is.

I don’t know about that fallout. I’d rather accuse someone of doping and be proven wrong than think they aren’t doping and then find out that they are. At least if we point some fingers maybe some investigators will become curious enough to probe the matter and find out exactly what is going on. I’d rather feel like a fool for thinking everyone is doping and then finding out they aren’t than feel like I’ve been lied to for being too naive.

We see the fallout here with Armstrong. Who do you think feels sillier, the die hard fans who always defended him and called everyone jealous or the people who weren’t fooled by “positive tests” and realized there was something going on deep down? I always assumed Armstrong was doping, maybe that’s why I don’t feel like he needs to be punished so severely. I don’t feel lied to, my line of thinking is more “oh ok, it’s about time everyone found out.”

October 19th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

The biggest thing about the Armstrong case is not that he was doping (which has not yet been proven) but if he was doping, how is it that he was never caught? Either the sport was complicit, or the technology is so behind the times that it’s fighting the last war – in which case, what is the point of all the testing?

I think tennis may have a doping problem, not because there’s any specific evidence, but because it’s very difficult for me to believe that with all the doping in other sports, tennis has somehow remained unscathed. Unfortunately, in the absence of some high profile dopers having been caught we wind up in the somewhat absurd conundrum that Ben Pronin offered.

That we’d rather be cynical than duped. I’d rather be duped until I know for certain I’m being duped. In cycling and track and field, it’s pretty obvious that doping is rampant. Baseball too – but not yet in tennis.

Time will tell.

October 19th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

I’d like to point out that it’s “easy” for an unbelievable physical specimen like Yannick Noah, to avoid the temptation to dupe. That man looked like he was carved out of stone and if he had been just a little better technically, could have been the best player in the world for years, because physically nobody has ever come close.

October 19th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

MMT, it’s a little bit of both. There’s definitely cover ups, but the drugs that athletes use are becoming harder and harder to trace to the point where they can take certain things at night and they won’t show up in a test the very next day. It’s not “why test at all,” it’s, “why isn’t there more funding to improve the testing?” The ITF has about a 1.5 million dollar budget for their anti-doping program. How effective do you think that is against top players who rake in several million a year?

Noah played in the early 80s, hard to say if he doped or not. But it’s not just about being a “physical specimen.” I assume you’re just implying he looked very fit. Tsonga looks like a physical specimen, but don’t you think he’d want to move better to counter his size and weight? There’s a motive to dope. Not saying Tsonga is doping, just saying there’s a motive for everyone.

October 19th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/10/blake-there-are-dopers-tennis/39827/#.UIG5NMVY2So

October 19th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

And its funny, an athlete who gets suspected of it, vehemently denies it, but gets caught. Its very routine for Athletes who are using to do this. Saying “shame on you for thinking I would do such a thing”, then, he gets caught. Just sayin its also a common reaction for cheaters.

Ben is right in the testing, the athletes get very sophisticated in there methods. Clear creams, etc.

Money is the objective here. Get on PEDs and get a performance increase, sign a big money deal as a result. You get caught big deal. You’ve made millions you don’t have to give back.

October 19th, 2012 at 5:59 pm

Ben Pronin Says:
I agree, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse a person or nation just because of personal dislike. But there is a good amount of evidence of Spain doing a lot of fishy things. Lots of Spanish doctors, lots of weird cover ups. Spain’s sudden rise in becoming one of the greatest sports nation’s in recent years is something to look at. Is Spain the only nation whose athletes are doping? Absolutely not. Not even close. But there’s a reason why Spain is often mentioned by accusers.

That is my point . I dont dislike spain or the people who live there.

But it is not possible for a country to becoem a leading sport nation out of the blue without a clear path with a different attitude towards sports. I accept the Auzie being a great sporting nation it is in their DNABut spain was mediocre in lots of sports and within a periode of 3-5 years they where leading nation with many sports beside tennis or football.

October 20th, 2012 at 5:34 am

Ben,

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/analysis/analysis-how-spain-became-center-of-operations-in-armstrongs-doping-ring_261622

October 20th, 2012 at 10:31 am

http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/Spain-admits-to-doping-problem-20120214

October 20th, 2012 at 10:40 am

Heh, memories are so short:

Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative Scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Laboratory_Co-operative

October 20th, 2012 at 10:56 am

@theDA ?? And?

October 20th, 2012 at 11:01 am

If u read the article Spain, the country, admits it has a doping problem.

October 20th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

What Noah or Blake are doing isn’t helping the sport in any way. They make general statements without really saying anything. They present their own sport in a bad light. Sure, there is doping in any sport, in any given country. Not just a few selected countries. Forget about that. And also why is there the opinion that a doctor of a specific country only “treats” his own countrymen or women? Never understood that. There are examples of this in cyling.

October 21st, 2012 at 8:56 am

I just find it sickening that LA is being murdered all over the world and that Ferrer and Errani who are named in the report because they make use of the same docters as LA did are not even having to answer questions. Why is that? Because Ferrer is such a nice guy he would not dream of doing dope?

Cycling is the most tested sport and why are other sports not being investigated? Do we really think dope is just a cycling matter?
Vamos….

October 21st, 2012 at 3:43 pm

@Ben Pronin – I think you’ve taken what I said out of context – I’m not saying there should be no testing, I’m saying if they’re going to test, they should conduct tests that catch dope cheats, otherwise the whole program serves no purpose.

And I don’t necessarily think we’re saying different things – you’re saying they need to fund testing so that it catches up with modern doping, and I agree. Why spend $1.5 to catch nobody, when you can do the same for nothing. Better to spend the money to catch actual dop cheats, rather than waste everyone’s time and money catching nobody, and pretending you’re doing due diligence.

I also have to point out that it is not every player on tour that has the millions to spend on doping – most players don’t make that much, but I agree that there is a lot of money in the game, and the paucity of caught dopers in all likelihood means there is more spending on skirting the doping regulations than there is on enforcing it, so it’s six on one-half…

Take the case of Wayne Odesnik – he got caught with vials of human growth hormone, yet he never failed a drugs test. He made $90K in his best year, and it would surprise me if he were supplementing his income by selling HGH to other players who haven’t been caught by the testing yet, but nobody has been – not even Odesnik.

And most of the cases of doping in tennis that I’ve found have been really soft offenses that didn’t really catch the person in the act of intentionally cheating, but rather just having a banned substance in their blood that most of us wouldn’t associated with being particularly performance enhancing.

I just think it’s a waste of time and money to have any anti-doping activities that don’t catch anyone.

October 22nd, 2012 at 11:11 am

Finally the UCI acts:

World Cycling Body Strips Armstrong of Titles

http://tinyurl.com/8gd9hxm

October 22nd, 2012 at 11:12 am

The subject is way bigger than Armstrong. Interesting read for the topic..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/22/uci-wada-armstrong-drugs?newsfeed=true

October 22nd, 2012 at 5:30 pm

I agree the drug problem is way bigger than we presume it to be.

I also agree that not enough funding is allotted to testing, and IMO, it’s a sham to allay suspicions and/or criticisms that WADA is not doing enough to beat the drug problem in sports. That $1.5 million is WADA’s security blanket when questions arise as to their role in dope testing. Additionally, how much of the $1.5 million is actually lab testing fees, and how much is being paid to the people in charge of the program? e.g, After the usual high stipends that are paid to top level personnel and salaries, how much of that money is left to take care of other labor costs, lab testing, etc.?I’d say very little.

With respect to athletes being stripped of their titles, I doubt that will change the outcome in some people’s minds as to who won the titles at those times. Yes, there will be an asterisk on those wins, but there will always be some who wouldn’t care to be bothered with the whys and wherefores of how those wins were gotten. In their minds it will be so and so who won, and that’s that for them, especially if the players involved are their faves. They will only remember how well the athlete performed.

It’s a shame that only Armstrong is being held up to ridicule, and I’ve a feeling that this is more political than anything else.

October 22nd, 2012 at 6:29 pm

Armstrong’s fall from grace is quite astounding at this point. It looks like he’s due to lose a lot of money, as well. Maybe this will send a strong message to those who dope or consider doping.

But still, this goes back to my previous point. It’s not like Armstrong is sitting around spending his winnings on recreational drugs or something. Through Livestrong he’s doing a lot of good in retirement. Even if he made that money by cheating, at least he’s putting it to some serious good use. So now he’s going to lose it all and then what? What are the organizations going to do with the money? Chances are, they’re not going to fund Livestrong, and more importantly, they’re not going to put this money into the anti-doping fund. They’re just taking it back for themselves. If he’s giving back $150 million, that’s 10 times the ITF’s budget. The UCI, the USADA, WADA, all these organizations that wanna strip titles and reclaim prize money, I hope they allocate properly. I just have a strong suspicion that they don’t. So why take it back? It’s simply greed.

And seriously, like Alok says, are people going to forget that Armstrong won from 99-05? No.

October 23rd, 2012 at 11:50 am

I don’t know much, actually hardly anything really, about cycling or Lance Armstrong.

All i can say is, it is ONLY SAD to see what’s happening with him at the moment.

Once a publicly lauded figure, an idol to many really, now a publicly shamed figure.

It’s unfortunate and sad to see.

But ultimately if he did cheat then it really hard to feel for him since- bottomline is: he knew what he was doing and the consequence of it if he ever got caught.

October 23rd, 2012 at 12:11 pm