Pete Sampras On GOAT Debate: Federer’s The Greatest, But Nadal’s Now In The Conversation
by Tom Gainey | September 27th, 2013, 9:42 am
  • 268 Comments

Just a few days after Andre Agassi gave his thoughts on the “bar-room” GOAT debate, Pete Sampras has now offered his take on who’s the best ever in tennis.

Speaking to the thetennispace.com, the 14-time Grand Slam champion said Roger Federer is still the man of the moment but cautioned that Rafael Nadal has put up quite a run and he isn’t done yet.

Said Sampras: “It’s always been so clear to me that Roger is the greatest. But I would say that, with Rafa doing what he’s been doing, he has an argument to be in the conversation. Rafa isn’t done yet. He could win more majors. He’s got a winning record against everyone that he has played in his generation. He’s won the Davis Cup, he’s won the Olympics. It’s such bar-room talk. You look at Rafa and what he has been able to do, you look at Roger and the fact that he did what he did for so long, winning all those majors. I hate talking about it. I feel as though every generation has the guy. Which generation was the best? You could talk about it all day. I just think that Roger was so consistent and so good for so long. But with Rafa, he’s sure to pass me on the list of most grand slam titles, and the question is whether he can take it further and go for that record.”

Sampras was considered the GOAT a decade ago, then along came Federer and now Nadal. While he trails Federer’s 17 Slams, he’s ahead of Nadal by one.


Also Check Out:
Fedal Wars: Nadal Well Ahead Of Federer In Masters Titles, But Does It Matter In The GOAT Discussion?
Fedal Wars: Agassi Puts Nadal Ahead Of Federer On The GOAT List, Is He Right?
Sampras: Nadal Can Pass Federer in Total Slams
Federer Lets Sampras Win, Looks Ahead to Rematch
Sampras a Current Day Top 5 Player? Federer Thinks So

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268 Comments for Pete Sampras On GOAT Debate: Federer’s The Greatest, But Nadal’s Now In The Conversation

Tennis for Life Says:

Looks like everyone is jealous of Federer. The list of Rafa koolaid drinkers is getting longer day by day.


Deborah Says:

It’s a shame they all want to lower the bar so Nadal can step over it. Once upon a time, consistency over time was an important measure. Sampras was so proud of that total weeks at number one but I guess since that’s been passed by Fed, it’s no longer important. Maybe Nadal passing Fed will take some of the sting out of Fed passing him. I guess since his number of consecutive years as year ending number one probably won’t get passed, he could care less who really deserves the GOAT title. Haters gotta hate.


hawkeye Says:

FedsHairIsTheBest Says:

Pmac, Sampras, Agassi…

The h8ers that never player real TENNIS gets longer by the day.


hawkeye Says:

Davis Cup? H2H? Olympics!!! Meaningful?

C’mon fed fans unite and sing together:

We’re not gonna TAKE it!
NO! We ain’t gonna TAKE it!
We’re not gonna take it!
Anymoooooore!


Tennis for Life Says:

Poor fed fans. They fought tooth and nail against considering H2H, gold and Davis cup valiantly in the Agassi thread. Now they have to start everything all over again here.
Thank you Sampras. I am loving it. Literally LMAO.


hawkeye Says:

Andy Murray Says:

‘There are many things I could have done a bit better tonight – but I didn’t. He’s probably the greatest player to play tennis.

- after playing Rafa, Wimbledon, July 2011.

Novak Djokovic Says:

I think he’s the best ever because, even though he’s 24 years old, he has done so much already,” Djokovic said. “Many years in front of him too, I think even to overtake [Federer] in the Grand Slam trophies.”

- after playing Rafa, March 2011, Indian Wells

Bah! What do they know. Must not play real TENNIS!!!


holdserve Says:

Deborah, I agree with you that its a shame to lower the bar. How can any logic accept that somebody who isn’t better than Rafa is better than everybody? Claiming h2h, Olympics, Davis Cup,any wins on clay do not matter etc are pathetic attempts to lower the bar so Fed can step over it.


holdserve Says:

correction…it’s a shame


AD Tennis Says:

Let us keep things in perspective:

“Said Sampras: “It’s always been so clear to me that Roger is the greatest. ”

and

“and the question is whether he can take it further and go for that record.”

Fair enough. So bottom line for Rafa kool-aid drinkers who think Rafa’s biceps are the best, take note:

1. Federer 2. Laver 3. Sampras.

Let Rafa cross Sampras without those knees giving up!


ID Fan Says:

” For Rafa fans and Roger fans and GOAT fans. there is a good article on GOAT analysis.
Google sportz cosmos “


ID Fan Says:

I think Sampras makes a great point Federer is a Goat now but Rafa is definitely in the conversation now


skeezer Says:

You types get itched and you think it means whatever you want it to mean, lol

“Said Sampras: “It’s always been so clear to me that Roger is the greatest.”

“the 14-time Grand Slam champion said Roger Federer is still the man of the moment”

I do think Sampras was self helping when he mentions “every generation has there guy”, I don’t know about that. What does he mean by that? Mmmmm


hawkeye Says:

Ahhh, yes, AD Tennis, am beginning to see who plays the real TENNIS now.

Reading between the tramlines.


skeezer Says:

@hawkeye
Don’t see an “AD Tennis” post on this thread?


James Says:

Pete’s said it the way it is. Roger’s ahead of others in the all time great debate. The way Nadal is going, he looks good to catch Roger and possibly overtake him.

If they both end their careers right now, there’s no doubt Roger’s had a better career.


hawkeye Says:

Respectfully, please stop stalking me @skeezer.

Wow, now even the Mighty Fed gives his take on the debate…

http://tinyurl.com/mkw5poo

Surprised.


skeezer Says:

hawkeye,

I simply just asked you a question. Google “stalking” before you accuse someone of it.


SG1 Says:

I think Pete’s right on the money about the H2H thing. When you basically own your peers, you have to pretty damned good.


josh Says:

Sampras is correct. You Fed fans gets so defensive at the mere mention of any negative comment about Roger. Pete’s not attacking Roger in any way here, he’s just stating fact. This is reality…Federer will not be the GOAT by the time Rafa is done with his career.

All Fed fans can keep denying, but reality will set in sooner or later.


SG1 Says:

This whole GOAT thing reminds me of a line from the movie “Coach Carter” where Samuel L. Jackson says, “Since when is winning not good enough?” in reference to his team’s on-court gloating.

Each side in terms of the GOAT debate not only has have their guy as the GOAT but they want to gloat about it too! One day, neither Federer or Nadal will be the GOAT. Some player will come along that’s better than both of them.

It’s fun to discuss who’s the GOAT but some perspective is required.


SG1 Says:

I’m sure there are a lot of Fed fans (including ones in this forum) saying their guy was the GOAT when Roger was 4 slams behind Sampras. Why doesn’t Nadal deserve the same kind of consideration? Is it because of his ugly game? Ugly as it may be, it’s wickedly effective and it has proved itself time and time again.


hawkeye Says:

Stanford passes Roger in the Race if he wins his next two matches in Kuala Lumpur this weekend. Gasquet and Milos not far behind.

Photo finish.


ID Fan Says:

SG1: Are you saying Weeks at no.1 donot matter? How can Rafa be greater than Sampras with only 102 weeks at no.1


skeezer Says:

@SG1

Coach Carter, good one ;)


roy Says:

sampras is grumpy that another guy is probably going to pass him. ”hates talking about it” funny stuff.
he also knows he got a bit cocky, thinking 14 was probably safe and retiring fairly early. he might have sneaked another wimbledon.

”consistency” is a nothing argument. it depends on your competition. and it depends on injuries.
federer has never missed a slam. how many has nadal missed? even murray has missed a few by now, two surgeries already for him.

let’s say nadal gets 17.
the consistency argument could look like this:
nadal has winning records over federer/djoker/murray and higher overall win % against top 10 and in general.

federer has losing records against nadal/djoker/murray lower win % against top 10 and overall but was more ”consistent”.
in what way?
it just means he streaked during a weaker era and when nadal was out of action.


ID Fan Says:

SG1: Since when is winning not good enough?

When the winning does not translate to No.1 ranking. :)


hawkeye Says:

Speaking of the Race, Milos Bionc’s serve is on fire!

He could make a late season surge if he keep this up.


ID Fan Says:

let’s say nadal gets 17.

We can also say Djokovic will have a winning H2H before Nadal gets 17.

Just saying!


hawkeye Says:

And, while we’re at it, Roger will have 20! Or 25 even!

Why not?


Giles Says:

Nadal has missed 6 slams so far in his career!


SG1 Says:

If Marcelo Rios can get to No.1 without even 1 slam, it tells me that the No.1 ranking can be a somewhat skewed way of evaluating greatness.


hawkeye Says:

Not to mention Wozniacki at No. 1 in the most recent weak era (zero great players continuously playing tennis).


ID Fan Says:

SG1:
Is Marcelo Rios in the conversation for GOAT? I am comparing Sampras and Nadal


Deborah Says:

Has anyone ever read the list of records held by Roger Federer? So they all accrue to Nadal by virtue of H2H?


hawkeye Says:

Dunno. Ask JMac, AA, Pete, Muzza and Nole. Maybe they have. Or perhaps we need to ask a real TENNIS player?


Brando Says:

LMFAO: Talk that talk Pete!

Bottomline (Yes Skeez, it’s back with vengeance :-) ):

FACT: Fed is the GOAT right now. Period.

BUT it’s also feasible that Rafa could pass him. Period.

Already FORMER, PRESENT pros have Rafa in the conversation and many feel that he could end up being the GOAT.

THEIR opinion- NOT Fed fans or Rafa fans- count in addition to the records.

ULTIMATELY:

IF former, current players and tennis commentators agree universally that Rafa is the new GOAT, then whatever Fed fans say is just pure and utter meaningless guff.

NO ONE would or indeed does care for it.

So what I say is:

Right now Fed is GOAT. That’s not in dispute. Just kick back and see what the future brings to us.


AD Tennis Says:

Deborah -

None of them have said Rafa is GOAT.

He has to overtake Pete then Laver and then Roger!

Let us wait and watch.


shiprock Says:

Weeks at number one…302, weeks at number 1…102 How can that stat not matter A LOT?


madmax Says:

hawkeye Says:
3 slams 3 consecutive years? 10 GS consecutive finals? 36 consecutive QF slams!!! 302 weeks at No. 1!!!!! 6 WTF titles Meaningful?

C’mon Rafa fans unite and sing together:

We’re not gonna TAKE it!
NO! We ain’t gonna TAKE it!
We’re not gonna take it!
Anymoooooore!

September 27th, 2013 at 10:26 am

Too funny Hawk eye. Too funny.


hawkeye Says:

Well said Brando!!! However, a few edits humbly and respectfully suggested:

FACT: Fed is the GOAT right now is not a fact (same for any player for that matter).

FACT: Already FORMER, PRESENT pros have Rafa AS the GOAT.


James Says:

LOL @madmax and @hawkeye
thanks for the entertainment;)

Well said, @Brando.


Michael Hendricks Says:

Nadal win be the GOAT when all is said and done, Fed won most of his grand slams when there was not much competition. Nadal always had his number. I don’t see why Fed has so many fans anyway, he is so arrogant, when he loses he never gives the opponents any credit, it’s always him having a off day or something.


queen Says:

All fed fans yell louder. Nobody can hear u. Bunch of fools. And put some more ### at the end of ur posts. They r not long enough.


Medley Says:

Rafael Nadal is the Greatest Of All Time and no opinion can change it. The fact is Nadal has won every major, Davis Cup and the Career Golden Slam but I do not stop there. It is in the numbers of him beating Federer 21-10 and most importantly, Nadal has the better win record. He has won 83.75 of his matches and Federer had won 81.30
You can cry all you want but Nadal became the Greatest Of All Time 2 years ago. These numbers are facts and not opinion.


joe Says:

Sampras was considered the GOAT a decade ago, then along came Federer and now Nadal. While he trails Federer’s 17 Slams, he’s ahead of Nadal by one.
—————
Sampras was the GOAT until Federer came along and passed him. Now, no question Nadal is currently the GOA because he dominated Federer and has so many slams, but we won’t know if Nadal is the GOAT until Nadal’s career is over.


James Says:

No need to be rude to the fans. We’re just discussing the GOAT in tennis.

Fed fans shouldn’t feel bad about Nadal fans hyping his GOAThood. Don’t blame the fans when it’s the McEnroes, Wilanders, Agassis, Sampras, and the likes who started it.

Rafa fans, easy, guys. Let Rafa win more slams, no? Because if they both retire right now, IMHO Roger’s career is better. Whether he’s the GOAT or not, Rafa cannot be greater than Roger if he doesn’t another slam.

My 2 cents.


Michelle Says:

What’s the big deal? Roger and Rafa are both in the GOAT club, just like Sampras, Laver and many others. IMO, the DC doesn’t matter. It’s a team event and Nadal was lucky to play for a country with a deep team (same with Pete and Andre). He didn’t have to play every tie and he didn’t have to play doubles every tie for Spain to have a shot. Fed does. And Fed has an Olympic doubles Gold and a singles Silver… so it’s not like he doesn’t have any medals. And what about Fed’s six YECs to none for Nadal? That’s a huge difference. IMO, winning the YEC is a heckuva lot tougher than winning the Olympic tournament which is similar to a TMS. And what about weeks at #1 and YE #1s??? Nadal is nowhere near Fed or Sampras on that front.


James Says:

*Rafa’s GOAThood


Michelle Says:

Medley… you are picking/choosing only facts that support your guy. Why not look at the stats/records that Fed has over Nadal like YECs, weeks at #1, YE #1s, streaks at the majors, etc. Why not give the PROs and CONs for both guys instead of just the ones favorable to your boy?


skeezer Says:

Post @3:17 is not a fact. Quit posting BS. If. Its your opinion fine, but don’t post BS.


SG1 Says:

ID Fan Says:
SG1:
Is Marcelo Rios in the conversation for GOAT? I am comparing Sampras and Nadal

——————–

My point is that being No.1 does not necessarily even mean you’re the best player at the time let alone the GOAT.

I’ll agree that being No.1 for 302 weeks isn’t No.1 in the way that Rios was. Being No.1 for 302 weeks definitely means a lot. It means sustained dominance. The problem with using No.1 ranking to validate GOAT-ness is that ranking is dependent on not only the actions of the player ranked No.1 but on the actions (or inaction) of the surrounding players.

While evaluating a player only by slam count is a little tunnel visioned, it ultimately measures the action of the player in a positive way. The player won a tournament. It’s a discrete, measurable achievement. Being No.1 can be the result of a set of circumstances, only some of which are controlled by the No.1 player. In other words, you can be No.1 and not actually the best player in the world. When you win a slam, you win it. You beat 7 players, best of 5 sets. I think that’s why more weight is put on the slams than on weeks at No.1. And it’s likely that if you’re winning a lot slams, you’re probably winning a lot of other stuff too.


Medley Says:

Michelle – these are facts apply to every male tennis player including Rod Laver. Nadal has the best winning percentage and that makes him the best of all time. His Career Golden Slam is icing on the cake. Roger Federer failed twice in the Olympics to win the Gold in singles. Accept the facts or get off the boards.


Medley Says:

Pete Sampras was never considered to be the Greatest Of All Time. It is nothing but folklore. You must win on all 4 surfaces in the Grand Slams to be considered. Sampras never won the French Open. He cannot play on clay. So much so, that he quit going to Europe due to defeats that were ruining his percentage average. He only went to Wimbledon. He was not eligible to be the Best Of All Time. You people need to do your research before posting. There is the ATP and ITF that maintain these records. Stop with the rumors and “what ifs”. They do not count. Only the facts count. Winning all four grand slams, the Olympic Gold for singles, the Davis Cup and the winning percentage. You are fanatics. You make up your own statistics that are not even counted.


Bob Says:

Medley, you can set your rules the way you want, no problem. But don’t cry too loud if nobody agrees with you.


Steve 27 Says:

Federer is done. But what moronic fed fans said: Haters gonna hate. But is simplistic to said that. The reality is the Djokovic and Murray of the swiss’s generation, Safin and Nalbandian were undisciplined players, lovers of the good life, not a damn history, failed to accept the challenges of being the best with their enormous talent.
The retirement of Sampras, the decay of Agassi and the little dedication of their stronger rivals, made the amount earned between 2004 and 2007 was excessive and not in line with what should be. But the lovers of the Swiss are the most blind in history, never admit it.


skeezer Says:

“Pete Sampras was never considered to be the Greatest Of All Time.”

Uh? Lol….


popsicle Says:

he has the best serve of all time!


skeezer Says:

^yes and if you were watching tennis at the time Sampras was consideration for GOAT. It appears some here were just born yesterday when Rafa was.


SG1 Says:

By Medley’s logic, we’ll just blow off Laver as GOAT candidate because he didn’t win any hard court slams. Yup, a guy with 2 calendar slams isn’t worth GOAT consideration.

Here’s a consideration. Imagine the 90′s where Sampras played 3 of 4 slams on grass. Roger would still be chasing Sampras down in terms of slam count. Sampras may have ended up with 18, 19 or even 20 slams.

Don’t bother trashing Sampras because he didn’t win at the FO. He played a game that just wasn’t suited to clay. His game was constructed by his coaches to win on grass and hard courts. If he were groomed for today’s game, he would have had as more success on the red stuff. I’m not saying he would win the FO. Just saying he’d find a way to make things interesting. He was a great competitor.


skeezer Says:

@SG1
Solid post as usual ;)


Steve 27 Says:

It would be interesting if the media ask Federer if he thinks his record is safe


Steve 27 Says:

Nadal save TENNIS for the boredom between 2005 and 2009 and Djokovic saves the record of the swiss between 2011 and 2012

All hail king Serb!


Jack Lewis Says:

Anyone that brings up davis cup results in a goat conversation needs to have a head exam.


Steve 27 Says:

What? No WTF, instead he mentions Olympics, H2H, and Davis Cup? Sounds like a Nadal fan. Lol


Steve 27 Says:

The sad thing, fed fans, is that nobody cares about the WTF outside of on this board. Pete’s won it. Even he doesn’t elevate it. It barely gets a mention. Not, only that, Pete thinks Rafa, with good health, will pass Fed. He said this today. I think he’s being nice to Roger out of respect for their “friendship,” but Agassi, today, believes it as well.

The WTF ship is sinking fast. Actually, it was never afloat in the first place.


Medley Says:

@Skeezer – Sampras was good on hardcourts and grass but horrible on clay. You can never be considered for Greatest Of All Time without the French Open. So sorry you hero is a fraud.


hawkeye Says:

skeezer Says:
Post @3:17 is not a fact. Quit posting BS. If. Its your opinion fine, but don’t post BS.

Wrong again. Please read more carefully. As stated, those are undeniable facts.

Jack Lewis, well I guess Sampras and JMac need their head examined LMAO. It’s their opinion. That’s a fact.

The federazzi can’t differentiate between facts and opinion.

Hilarious!


hawkeye Says:

In 2008, two of the top eight that were mandated to participate in the WTF were injured.

Everyone in the remaining top 35 except for Stepanek and Kiefer turned them down,.

Among the twenty-four players who declined to come – because they needed to prepare for the Davis Cup final, for reasons of injury, or to preserve themselves for the next season – were James Blake, David Nalbandian, 2007 Tennis Masters Cup finalist David Ferrer, Stanislas Wawrinka, 2007 qualifier Fernando González, Fernando Verdasco, Gaël Monfils, Robin Söderling, Igor Andreev, Nicolás Almagro, Tomáš Berdych, Tommy Robredo, Marin Čilić, Mardy Fish, 2007 qualifier Richard Gasquet, Ivo Karlović, Philipp Kohlschreiber, Dmitry Tursunov, Marat Safin, Feliciano López, Paul-Henri Mathieu, Mikhail Youzhny, Rainer Schüttler and Mario Ančić.

That’s a fact to grow on folks! So much for WTF significance. Abu Dhabi gets more respect from the players. Players only play WTF if they have to.


Fed is GOAT Says:

Why no former great is talking about WTF ?


skeezer Says:

Medley,
Apparently u weren’t around when Sampras was breaking records. All the greats past and present were discussing it. Where were u? And sorry, Sampras was never my fav.
And the pundits did say at the time that the FO was something that would have cemented it(Fed broke down that barrier), but the GOAT talk was there AND considered against Laver. 14 Slams was unreal at the time. Still is an achievement that no one, including your Rafa love, has not accomplished……yet.


hawkeye Says:

With a win over Melzer tomorrow, Wawa becomes the Swiss No. 1 in the Race to London.

Vamos Stan!!!


ID Fan Says:

The problem with using No.1 ranking to validate GOAT-ness is that ranking is dependent on not only the actions of the player ranked No.1 but on the actions (or inaction) of the surrounding players.

SG1:

You don’t get to be No.1 for 302 weeks, 286 weeks like Roger and Sampras because other players were not good.

How can Nadal be considered the best of this generation when there is someone with 300 weeks at no.1 and another with 100 weeks at no.1 – Djokovic? I think no.1 is a more important parameter for GOAT than H2H. Your thoughts?


Rafaisthebest Says:

Skeezer and SG1 are right.

Sampras is ahead of Rafa in the GOAT list.

My fellow Rafa fans:

Don’t bad mouth Sampras now. He has a better record than Nadal. I hope Nadal will overtake Sampras’ record.


Sean Randall Says:

Oh look, a GOAT debate! How can I join?

While I won’t get into my stance here, looking at the Slam leaderboard it’s…
Federer 17
Sampras 14
Nadal 13

That’s a FACT!

I know we get all twisted in the “ingredients” and what not, but do you think in 30 years people looking at that same chart – assuming it stays relatively as is with Roger on top (unlikely, someone we’ve never heard will be leading!) – they will care how many Frenchs Rafa won, or Wimbledons Roger won, or career Slams etc?

I dunno.


SG1 Says:

ID fan,

Being No.1 for 300 weeks is a formidable accomplishment. I’ve never implied otherwise. I had indicated in another post a while back that I do believe that it would help Rafa’s case for being the GOAT if he could put together another year next year like the one he just had. He would be showing sustained dominance which is a GOAT trait.

This being said, Novak has been No.1 for most of the year. From February onward, while Novak was No.1, Rafa was actually the best player in the world. Once again, this No.1 ranking thing has some issues with it.

H2H evaluation and total slams won are less subjective. You either win a slam or you don’t. You either beat your rival or you don’t. These are measurable events that are not biased by external circumstances.

Unlike Rios who became No.1 almost by accident, you have to actually go out and win a slam. Does anyone think that Rios was actually ever the best tennis player on the planet? What about when Serena wasn’t number 1? She was still the best player out there.


SG1 Says:

Sean,

The GOAT debate here is like the fly and the bug zapper. Tennis-X built the zapper. Most of us just can’t resist the light and are drawn right to it.


Rafaisthebest Says:

Sean

Are you saying only number of slams matter? What about weeks at number 1?

ID Fan seems to think they do. SG thinks they donot.

SG1:

If I may join your conversation with ID Fan, how is H2H subjective? Davydenko, as Federer fans point out, has a 6-5 H2H over Rafa. Does that mean Davydenko is now the best? To re-phrase your question about no.1 and Rios. Does anyone think that Davydenko was actually ever the best tennis player on the planet.

WTA and ATP are two different sports. Serena is way ahead of the class and applying same logic as many use for Federer, her generation is weak.


Sean Randall Says:

SG1, good analogy!

Rafaisbest, how many weeks was Laver No. 1?


Rafaisthebest Says:

Sean, point noted.

So you are saying Laver is inferior in GOAT list to Federer, Sampras and Nadal?


ID Fan Says:

Guys, there is a good post on this topic on sportzcosmos. Click on my ID
that is post


Steve 27 Says:

rafaisthebest, can you be less ironic?
Is fair is you go out the closet and say who your favorite player is instead of you hide in the “name” that contradicts your own opinions. would do us a huge favor.


Steve 27 Says:

is 6 5 similar to 21 10 or 22 15. I dont think so.


Sean Randall Says:

Rafaisbest, what I’m saying is Laver played in a time when there were no rankings, right?


ID Fan Says:

SG1: H2H is not subjective. Look at Nadal and Djokovic. what does it say? Nadal is 13-3 on clay and Novak is 11-7 on hardcourts


Rafaisthebest Says:

ID Fan:

Thanks for the link. I like that site. If you are a fan of GOAT discussions, that is a good topic and approach they have.


ID Fan Says:

Sean:

Let us keep the discussion to open era players then. So what is your take? Does a guy with 14 slams and 102 weeks , should Rafa get to 14 slams. Is he above Sampras in the GOAT list? or Sampras 286 weeks trumps it?


SG1 Says:

There isn’t some concrete definition of what constitutes the GOAT. It’s part statistical and part gut instinct. I never implied that Rafa plays a better game than Federer. However, I do think he plays a more effective game.

As for h2h, I did say that it is less subjective than the no.1 ranking. as for the davy-rafa match up, it’s very close. a match here and there and rafa leads the match up. rafa and davy haven’t played much in the last few years. I suspect that if they did, rafa would now be getting the better of him. not so different from the Sampras-krajicek thing where krajicek had a 6-4 record against pete. I don’t think anyone would imply that krajicek was better than pete anymore so than someone claiming that davy is better than rafa.


SG1 Says:

Given the choice, I’d rather play Roger’s style than Rafa’s. Roger makes something hard look ridiculously easy. Rafa…not so much. He looks like he’s working hard.


skeezer Says:

Sean,

Thanks for bringing sanity back to the insane and inept arguments of the unknowledgable. Seaching google for criteria for a fav for some shows there inexperience in the game.
It’s not complicated. Slams carry the most weight. Clear and concisely so. Then you add everything else.

And when has DC been a noted qualifier? LMAO.
Its a rafafanatic world, thats how.


SG1 Says:

ID fan,

Laver won his second calendar slam in the open era and deserves GOAT consideration.


queen Says:

Not the number of Slams or even weeks at #1 determine greatness but the overall # of titles won throughout career. Doesn’t matter 250, 500, 1000 or slam. Don’t they all play to win a tournament? Everybody would like a slam but all trophies count. Fed has like what 77 now to rafa’s 60. Well despite the fact that fed started in 1998 and rafa in 2001, and fed had a few easy years with nobody to really bother him.


Rafaisthebest Says:

SG1:

Agreed with you on these points:

“As for h2h, I did say that it is less subjective than the no.1 ranking.”

***That is the reason I want Rafa to get his weeks at no.1 to 250weeks

“Given the choice, I’d rather play Roger’s style than Rafa’s. Roger makes something hard look ridiculously easy. Rafa…not so much. He looks like he’s working hard.”

*** The mark of a genius! That is true for Sampras and Laver too. Rafa, Hewitt, Murray, Ferrer, they are the hard workers or as people mostly say grinders.


SG1 Says:

Rafa getting to 250 weeks at No.1 would likely go part and parcel with another 8 or 9 slams. However, I think those numbers are a little unrealistic. Given his injury problems and the fact that he has 13 slams with 102 weeks at No.1, I suspect his slam numbers will likely stop at around 16 or 17. Of course, I never thought Rafa would get anywhere near Pete’s 14 so what do I know? I don’t see any major stars that will burst through over the next couple of years, so if Rafa can stay healthy, who knows what’ll happen. I do expect some serious push back Nole next year.


SG1 Says:

And Murray will want to crash the party too. The back surgery will give him a chance to rest, recharge his mental batteries and generate a big push to complete his career slam.


Steve 27 Says:

The mark of a genius! That is true for Sampras and Laver too
You may say of laver or Federer but with Sampras your point is futile.
His “genius”, his “all court style of play” not help him to reach a wretched final at Roland garros. Moreover, against Kafelnikov in 1996, was severely beaten. Your argument is invalid, a genius is “adapted” to the circumstances and does everything to prevail. In the American case, completely lacks validity and is not an opinion, it is a proven fact with reality.


Sean Randall Says:

ID Fan, I have a “take” but I won’t get into it here, it’s a long post. Maybe I will once the season’s over. Watch this space in late November.


SG1 Says:

Sorry Steven 27 but I don’t agree with you on the Sampras argument. What about the Davis Cup match between Sampras and Kaffy? Sampras won that one.

Sampras had some physical issues as well which caused premature fatigue. He wasn’t just handicapped by his flat game but by a physical issue he never had any control over. The clay court game is a physical one and RG can be a really hot place to play. Having a blood disorder that saps your energy isn’t exactly helpful. Who’s to say what he could do on clay without that problem? Yannick Noah won at RG. Pete’s game was far superior to his.


SG1 Says:

Sampras could win matches on clay. It was the 7 match wins over 3 of 5 sets that was his Achilles heal in Paris.


Sean Randall Says:

Here’s what I wrote about Rafa in 2008:
http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2008-06-08/495.php#comment-34167

“While we are all looking at Roger in awe of his achievements, maybe the real GOAT is playing right before our eyes and we don’t even recognize it. Not out of the crazy realm of possibility.”


SG1 Says:

I think Federer and Sampras are the two most complete players to ever walk onto a tennis court.


SG1 Says:

Good call Sean. Good call.


Steve 27 Says:

Sg1, history is written and can not do anything to change it, perhaps you can make up with regrets and excuses. Look well, think about it and tell me Sampras did enough to win at Roland Garros and overcome their own limitations. From 1997 to the end of his career, the American record on clay is not worthy of a “genius”. Sampras is out of the fictional GOAT list.


Sean Randall Says:

Another oldie circa 2007, just after Novak Djokovic cracked the Top 10 for the first time:
http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2007-04-04/157.php

(I really picked Monfils to beat Djokovic in the 2012 US Open final back then?)


Fed is GOAT Says:

I am a Fed fan and believe he is the GOAT. But I do not want him to be declared as the GOAT by ignoring many important parameters like head to head, Olympics gold, Davis cup, etc.
None of the past greats have said these things should be ignored. Its only a few grumpy fans who want Federer to be set in stone as the goat want to ignore the glaring holes in his CV. Fed is the GOAT. But Rafa is almost equal to him in his accomplishments already. He will be the GOAT even if he wins one more slam because of his more complete CV.


Steve 27 Says:

fed is GOAT is the brother of rafaisthebest: very “genuine” fans.


skeezer Says:

^Now there calling out “genuine” fans.
This can’ t get anymore hilariously insecure from rafafanatics lol..


Fed is GOAT Says:

Skeezer at 11:27 pm,
You mean Sampras, Agassi and other greats are all rafafanatics ?


SG1 Says:

Sampras was a grass court genius. In my opinion, a better player on grass than anyone in history. He was also a hard court genius. He played in 11 hard court slams and won 7 of them. Sampras had more than enough genius in him to be a GOAT candidate when he retired. It’s your own biases that prevent you from seeing this, not any trumped up weaknesses in Pete’s game. Sampras, like Federer, had no weaknesses. American tennis players just weren’t groomed for clay whereas Euros grew up on the stuff. Conversely, I can’t think of any baseliner who won the USO or Wimbledon in the 90′s that wasn’t named Agassi (an American). The 90′s was a different era. You can’t use today’s standards to evaluate players from a different generation. The 90′s had more of a conflict of styles. Certain styles were more suited to grass and h-courts, others to clay. There were more surface specialists in the 90′s than there are today because today’s game is almost exclusively played from the baseline.


holdserve Says:

Fed is GOAT and rafaisthebest are well matched!!!


SG1 Says:

Sampras won 14 slams taking it to his opponents. He attacked. He went for winners. He played on knife’s edge and was usually the one coming out on top. No one today plays a game anything like his. It’s sad that he’s has to become unappreciated so that other players can be propped up.

And he, much like Fed, made the game look too easy.


SG1 Says:

Sampras wasn’t quite as smooth as Federer but he was the better athlete and he hit a bigger ball both on serve and from the forehand wing. I also think he was a little stronger mentally than Federer.

Despite this, I do concede that Federer is the GOAT…for now.


skeezer Says:

Fed is GOAT
No not what I meant. Just a “sarcasm” play.

@SG1
To add, there is no way Rafa is going to match Sampras 7 Wimbys and 5 USO’s, so all is relative in surface land no? Rafa is relatively a 1 court wonder comparedto the others. With 13 Slams, 8 have been on one surface. A big negative in the debate.


madmax Says:

Steve 27 Says:
Federer is done. But what moronic fed fans said: Haters gonna hate. But is simplistic to said that. The reality is the Djokovic and Murray of the swiss’s generation, Safin and Nalbandian were undisciplined players, lovers of the good life, not a damn history, failed to accept the challenges of being the best with their enormous talent.

September 27th, 2013 at 6:50 pm

You show your ignorance Steve27!

Safin won two Grand Slam tournaments and reached the world no. 1 ranking during his career.

Safin is one of only two men to have managed to win a Grand Slam tournament where at least three of the Big Four have competed, the other being Juan Martín del Potro.

He defeated home-country favorite Lleyton Hewitt in the 2005 finals to secure his second Grand Slam in five years. En route to this final, he defeated top-ranked Roger Federer in a five-set semi-final match,and future World No. 1 Novak Djokovic, in the first round for the loss of just three games.

After ending Federer’s 26-match winning streak over top-10 players, Safin described the match as “a brain fight.”

As a junior, Nalbandian reached as high as no. 3 in the world in December 1998 (and no. 5 in doubles).

So yeah, I can see that both Safin and Nalbandian were undisciplined players. After all, you have to be undisciplined to get to World No. 1 and World No. 3!

And as for Safin not being counted in the era of Djokovic, most definitely wrong, as you can see, the start of Novak’s career, but nevertheless they played each other and this is a part of both of their history’s!

You let yourself down with your distorted view on the facts.

Hopefully you will get better.


skeezer Says:

SG1,
Who would you take in a showdown between Fed/Sampras in a Wimby match(with both in there prime?). I think Sampras was the better grass player with that unreal secnd serve and net game to back it up. But wait, on the old surface or post 2001? Ahhh… .?


Tennis for Life Says:

On the slow grass conditions post 2001 it will be 60 40 to Pete. It will be 90 10 to Pete in the true fast grass. True baseliners like Fed, Rafa, Nole will not have a chance at US or Wim in the 90s.
But with Rafa’s competitive spirit and consistent improvements we can’t say for sure.


SilverBullet96 Says:

For me Rafa will never ever be the greatest. He’s too inconsistent, too many injury breaks, playing style includes too much of plain power grinding and chasing balls and waiting for opponent to make errors.

Rafa fans can call him GOAT if he surpasses the GS count, but no offense, very very less people outside them will agree.


Michael Says:

And the discussion on who is GOAT goes on and on…. It will never end. I think it is a bit premature to compare the careers of Roger and Rafa. While Roger is in the twilight of his career, Rafa has still some good years of Tennis left in him. We do not know what he will ultimately manage to achieve when he finishes his career and that can only be hard speculation. So, let us wait for their careers to end and then make an honest assessment based on the achievements. If you ask those who are enamoured of the Laver’s era, they would straightway nominate him for the GOAT title for having won two Grand slams, but immediately you will have counters from Roger and Rafa fan clubs. So, the conclusion on that debate would be elusive. Let us just enjoy what these legends offer and have the discussion another time.


Giles Says:

http://alturl.com/gbwso
China Open draw. Looks like Kohlschreiber is stalking Rafa! Lol


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Great post Michael as always,Pete and Andre are both entitled to their own personal opinions,as is everybody else,and thats all they are opinions,and they have certainly suceeded in opening up a can of worms between them,Roger is the GOAT Rafa might overtake him at some point only time will tell,its actually a discussion that goes around in circles,personally i think its fantastic that there are so many great players past and present that have their own areas in greatness for me that is what makes the game more exciting,not one GOAT but many greats IMO anyway.


holdserve Says:

Except for Fed fans like skeezer who discount facts, grand slams on clay are just as valid as grand slams on other surfaces. Rafa has a formidable total of 13 grand slams in total.
The fact that 8 of them are on clay make his claim to GOAT greater because no other person in history has dominated any grand slam surface as Rafa has done.
When he lost RG 2009, there was massive disbelief. It was as if the universe had spun in reverse. This kind of domination in an era where other tennis geniuses like Fed and Djokovic exist, both of whom were brought up on clay, is totally amazing and is the stuff of legends. So mind boggling is this achievement that it puts in the shade his victories on other surfaces which being 5 are enough by themselves to make him one of the greatest of all time.
His unprecedented record on clay qualifies him for GOAT.
As for skeezer’s claim that Rafa is one dimensional because he has won 8 on clay, there is absolutely no logical argument to refute it as it is based on no logic.
According to skeezer’s reasoning or rather unreasoning, if you are the best at something and better than more than 99% of others in other things, your excellence in other things is to be completely discounted. For example if you get 100 in Math and say 99.5 in English, history,geography, Science etc you should be considered as failed in those subjects even though the passing mark is say 40.
According to skeezer’s skewed reasoning, if Rafa had won just 2 instead of 8 at RG he would be multidimensional and eligible to be considered for GOAT! If he has won 8, he is disqualified!!!!!
7 grand slams with 2 clay, 2 grass, 2 US Open, 1 AO is BETTER according to skeezer logic than 8 clay,2 grass, 2 US Open and 1 AO!!!!!


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Never seen the need for fans of either fan group to dump on one players achievements to make them feel better about their own favourites,seems some people cannot be 100% happy unless the rest of the world is miserable.


Fed is GOAT Says:

In terms of victories Rafa leads the way with a very good variety of trophies on his least favorable surfaces. Federer has just 1 slam on clay, Nole has nothing to talk about on clay even though he is a clear number 2 on clay during the last decade.
Rafa has 3 slams and a gold on hard courts. Period.


hawkeye Says:

Hmmm, “interesting” takes from the fed fans.

Who to believe…. the federazzi above or the likes of Sampras, Agassi and the other Top 3.

Great posts holdserve. I’ve been muzzled.


Fed is GOAT Says:

In terms of match ups Rafa is more likely to beat the other top 4 on their favorable surfaces than being beaten up on clay. This clearly shows that Rafa is the most multi dimensional/all round player out of the top 4.
Is there anyone in the history to win a minimum of 2 slams on all three surfaces ?


hawkeye Says:

Wawrinka lost so for now Fed is still holding on to his spot in the Race.


hawkeye Says:

Finally FedisGOAT. Many good Fed fans like yourself restoring some sanity here on Tennis-X. You must be a real tennis player. I can tell.


Skeezer Says:

You can twist it any way you want, that is your twisted opinion. The fact is Rafa has won 8 of his 13 Slams on one surface. I never said the FO was any lesser than any of the other slams either, your words, not mine. Its a slam. Only pointing out, which is a FACT, that he won a majoirty of them on ONE surface. I’ll say it again, read closely;
“Rafa is relatively a 1 court wonder compared to the others.”
Rinse and repeat.


hawkeye Says:

Telling that only federazzi spew such simplistic opinion about Nadal. Methinks they doth protest too much. The criticism stems from Rafa’s domination of their fave. Ironically it’s not the Rafans that make a big deal of the 10-31 h2h. It’s the federazzi.

Who to believe. Sampras, Agassi, PMac and the other Top three or the opinions above.

Hilarious!!!


hawkeye Says:

^^^ 10-21. Not that it makes much difference.


holdserve Says:

skeezer if somebody wins umpteen slams on one surface it doesn’t DIMINISH his achievements on other surfaces!!!! It just proves how great he is on that surface.

How many among the 1000s of players on the tour have won even 2 slams at US Open or 1 slam at AO or 2 slams at Wimbledon? If you leave out Fed and Djokovic, the answer is none.
After 2008 when he reached his prime his record on every slam surface is better or equal to Fed’s
Fed: 2 grass, 1 USO 1 AO, 1 RG
Rafa: 2 grass, 2 USO 1 AO , 5 RG

Do not forget dear Fed’s 12 grand slams were collected between 2003 and 2007 when even in the words of Sean Randall in his 2007 article, there was no competition i.e. it was a weak era.
Look at his record after his rivals came of age.
He is not only not a GOAT because of his h2h against Rafa , he is not even a GOAT on even ONE surface.


Giles Says:

http://alturl.com/3adso
The Goat(?) bleats!! Lol


holdserve Says:

I agree with hawkeye.
We need more sane Fed fans like Fed is GOAT. Obviously these sane Fed fans are probably the only Fed fans who watch tennis.


skeezer Says:

holdserve, hawkeye, giles…same poster? lol

holdserve

never start an argument with an “if”. you aren’t going to win battles that way. ;)

ok so now you want to change the subject to GOAT of one surface? ok…lol. blog on…


holdserve Says:

Nadal is undisputably GOAT on one surface. The only Question is, is he the all time Greatest, which question will be answered probably by 2016.

In case of Fed, the question is already answered . He is not the GOAT because of his h2h against Rafa. The question we could examine was, is he the GOAT at least on one slam surface? He is not.
Sorry for skeezer and other Fed fans but facts are facts.

When people relate facts, they all say the same thing. Everybody says sun rises in the East. That doesn’t make them the same poster.
hawkeye, Giles and me are different posters just telling the FACTS.


Teeg Says:

@holdserve

I guess you can say Roger is the best hc player in Grand Slam history, with 9 titles (5 US, 4 AO).


Teeg Says:

Interesting to see another great come out an make an argument for Rafa’s case. Two in the same week, in fact – Agassi & Sampras. Rafa surely making alot of folks take note.


Giles Says:

skeezer jumping to the wrong conclusions as usual!
#SoWhatElseIsNew


ID Fan Says:

ID Fan, I have a “take” but I won’t get into it here, it’s a long post. Maybe I will once the season’s over. Watch this space in late November.

Thanks Sean. I will keep watching this space and I hope you will not cop-out like Steve Tignor and others saying you are tired of the GOAT debate.

We will keep the GOAT analysis going on our site (sportzcosmos – clicky my ID). Feel free to join our analysis and lend your expert advice/suggestions


hawkeye Says:

Haha yeah sure!

Me, holdserve, Giles, Sampras, Agassi, Muzza, Nole, JMac. We’re all the same person!

We’ve got our own resident Sherlock Holmes!

He’s got us!


SilverBullet96 Says:

@hawkeye – Djokovic also said Federer is the best ever at the US Open 2011.


madmax Says:

holdserve:

“When he lost RG 2009, there was massive disbelief. It was as if the universe had spun in reverse”.

September 28th, 2013 at 6:44 am

The problem with this, is that Soderling never really got the praise he deserved.

holdserve,

sorry to disappoint you, but I got on with my life, the world continued for me.

..,and Skeezer is right. Rafa is GOAT on one surface and one surface only – clay. A very simple fact and I don’t see him or anyone else disputing that.

“In case of Fed, the question is already answered . He is not the GOAT because of his h2h against Rafa. The question we could examine was, is he the GOAT at least on one slam surface? He is not.
Sorry for skeezer and other Fed fans but facts are facts”.

Holdserve,when are you going to get it that your argument with head to head alone is just skewed. Tennis is much more than a head to head. If that is all you have to go on then you are ignoring the history of the players whose head to heads have been one part of a rivalry, one part of the tennis history, not the composition.

holdserve:

Do not forget dear Fed’s 12 grand slams were collected between 2003 and 2007 when even in the words of Sean Randall in his 2007 article, there was no competition i.e. it was a weak era.
Look at his record after his rivals came of age.
He is not only not a GOAT because of his h2h against Rafa , he is not even a GOAT on even ONE surface.

September 28th, 2013 at 10:44 am

holdserve, seriously, you take the opinion of Sean randall who (after reading a mighty lot of his threads over the years), has said fed is the greatest, then he isn’t then he plays in a strong era, then he doesn’t. You haven’t been here that long, so before you rely on the word of one person (who isn’t always consistent), you need to go back a few years and read the comments.

Weak era – God! That old chestnut!

hawkeye Says:
Telling that only federazzi spew such simplistic opinion about Nadal. Methinks they doth protest too much. The criticism stems from Rafa’s domination of their fave. Ironically it’s not the Rafans that make a big deal of the 10-31 h2h. It’s the federazzi.

hawkeye can you count? or is that just wishful thinking? and you are kidding right? that the Rafutopians are the ones who, at every single opportunity, rely on the h2h which forms part of a tennis players overall career to date, not the whole. But have it your way and enjoy the h2h, just look at the history beforehand and see the h2h’s of all the other greats – see where it takes you, but I can see, I am wasting my time here.


ID Fan Says:

Nadal is undisputably GOAT on one surface

And he is also a chump at the WTF. Has a less than 50% win ratio. 9-10. When top 8 players come to play, Rafa vanishes. LOL!

I don’t think Rafa can be GOAT with such a horrible record in a tournament where there are no free matches and qualifiers or luck losers to beat


ID Fan Says:

Skeezer:

“never start an argument with an “if”. you aren’t going to win battles that way. ;)

ok so now you want to change the subject to GOAT of one surface? ok…lol. blog on…”

Hold Serve was handed english/debating lessons on another site, I know. Reasoning is not her strength. [or his] For that matter, most rafa fans are not to be gauged on reasoning. :)

As for GOAT of one surface – it is obvious to all. Rafa is the biggest beneficiary of courts slowing down. If he was truly adaptable, he would have won the YEC atleast a few times. Federer or Djokovic have won atleast 3 masters on clay. Federer even has 6. Yet, on his worst surface/conditions = indoor hardcourts, Rafa has 1 Masters. Madrid 2005.

The biggest beneficiary of this slowing down conditions is Rafa. More than Murray or Djokovic. It is not a miracle that the entire ball-fetching Spanish armada also started doing well outside clay this decade. Guess what Spanish players were doing in the 90s? Busy whining that Wimbledon doesn’t care for them.


ID Fan Says:

Federer is the best on Grass – 7slams 8 finals, Hard courts 9 slams, Indoor Hard courts 6 titles.
What exactly has Rafa got?


Teeg Says:

@ID Fan

“What exactly has Rafa got”

He’s got 9 consecutive years winning at least 1 Major. The best winning % (83.75%) in the Open era. He’s won at least 2 majors
on each surface. A career Golden Slam. He’s the only player to win 4 different tournaments at least 7 times each. And really, I can go on and on.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Teeg i agree with all of ID Tennis post right till the last sentence,Rogers records are second to none so ill leave it at that,but to then fire back with what has Rafa got?is rather unfair,not claiming Rafa is better than Roger but the guys career is not exactly one thats of a complete failure,13 GS,only two players in history with more,multiple slams now on all surfaces,a career GS,the 1st player in the open era to have won 1 GS for 9 staight years,26 masters 1000 titles more than any other player.


Teeg Says:

@Tennis X Hippy Chic

I too am not claiming Rafa is better than Roger. I for one do believe that as it stands now, Roger is the best. But when he said what does Rafa have, I just thought I’d list a few of his accomplishments, some of which are all-time records.

As a Rafa fan, I can’t help but be in awe of what Roger has achieved. But for some of his fans to still be so naiive towards Rafa’s tremendous success and still label him as simply as clay court specialist I think is utterly disgraceful and totally unfair.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Teeg well exactly Rogers the greatest ever,but that doesnt mean that Rafa shouldnt be given credit for his achievements too?


Humble Rafa Says:

Federer is the best on Grass – 7slams 8 finals, Hard courts 9 slams, Indoor Hard courts 6 titles.
What exactly has Rafa got?

Nothing really. I just pick my butt and run around like a rabbit.

I hope this makes you happy because I know you could use some happiness at this time. It’s been a rough year for you. Take it easy. Get some Prozac.


Steve 27 Says:

Indoor Hard courts 6 titles.

Even the fanatics fed fans know nothing of their idol. 4 of the 6 titles were on indoor hardcourt (Shanghai 2006 and 2007, London 2010 and London 2011). If you do not know, lazy, in 2003 and 2004 were played in Houston in hard court outdoor.
The best indoor player is between Sampras, Becker or Lendl


skeezer Says:

@ID Fan
Sampras has some pretty amazing stats also. Sure he never won a FO, but he is miles above everyone else ( excluding the Maestro ) in most other categories of achievements and varied surfaces/tournaments.
Question for all, do you get a trophy for having the best percentage H2H against your rivals or do you get a trophy for winning a tournament? I believe the way the game works is the goal is to win the trophy…………no?
So which one will stand and be recorded in the record books?’
—–

Alison & Teeg
Spot on comments..thanks…. and Rafa may very well be the greatest ever if he keeps this up ;). No one has talked about this much, but Rafa is probably at this point a shoo in for the all time Masters wins. Rafa should have a few good years left to rack up those, and I would expect him too, at least on Clay, maybe of few more hard….


Majestic Tennis Says:

I will modify ID Fan’s question:

What has Rafa got outside clay?

Tennis X Hippy Chic and Teeg:

Maybe you should address Rafa fans like hold serve who have clearly said Roger is not the GOAT?

If you think you have not claimed Roger is NOT the GOAT, you can ignore such questions.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Thankyou Skeezer i dont know what will happen,but that post means alot ;)..


hawkeye Says:

Well I’ve reviewed the “interesting” arguments from the federazzi here and weighed it against the opinions of McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi, Muzza and Nole.

Wow. Who would know the best from those two groups?

Not a difficult decision. LMAO.


SG1 Says:

skeezer Says:
SG1,
Who would you take in a showdown between Fed/Sampras in a Wimby match(with both in there prime?). I think Sampras was the better grass player with that unreal secnd serve and net game to back it up. But wait, on the old surface or post 2001? Ahhh… .?

————————–

On 90′s grass and without Luxilon, if I were Federer, I wouldn’t want any piece of a Pete Sampras firing on all cylinders. I think that Sampras was the best player to ever set foot on the grounds of SW17.

With the improved technology (strings/rackets) and slower grass surface, Fed would win his share. This is such a tough one to judge.

I like to think that a guy like Sampras who can win 7 Wimby’s pressing the action and on the full out attack has the game to win in any era and against any player. It’s not easy playing the high risk way he did.


SG1 Says:

skeezer Says:
Fed is GOAT
No not what I meant. Just a “sarcasm” play.

@SG1
To add, there is no way Rafa is going to match Sampras 7 Wimbys and 5 USO’s, so all is relative in surface land no? Rafa is relatively a 1 court wonder comparedto the others. With 13 Slams, 8 have been on one surface. A big negative in the debate.

——————————-

I wouldn’t say that Rafa is one surface wonder. The guy has won 5 slams off the red stuff. That would be a pretty great career in and of itself for most mortals.

This being said, I did mention to Ben that I think he needs to win a couple of more h-court/grass slams to cement himself as the GOAT.


holdserve Says:

ID fan
“Hold Serve was handed english/debating lessons on another site, I know. Reasoning is not her strength. [or his] For that matter, most rafa fans are not to be gauged on reasoning. :)

Which site? Who gave these lessons? And Why? Why on earth would anyone waste his time giving english/debating lessons on a tennis site when no one is likely to take lessons from a poster hiding behind a screen name and of unknown credentials?
Guess the wannabe teacher was a Fed fan. Only a Fed fan could possibly be so illogical as to attempt giving such lessons on a tennis site.
Not surprising. Fed fans have to be illogical because if they accept logic they would have to admit Fed is totally disqualified as a GOAT contender!!!


holdserve Says:

Don’t worry skeezer you will not be asked to write tennis history except maybe by Ruan’s Federer blog.
Official History will definitely record the most famous h2h in tennis which has irretrievably damaged Fed’s legacy!!
Also an h2h is built up on wins but I guess it is too much to expect a Fed fan to analyze the meaning of a h2h especially when it is the thorn in the side of Fed fans. Fed fans would prefer to be in denial about this h2h which has, sad to say, put their fave out of contention for the GOAT title.


Hawkeye Says:

RafaGoat


Teeg Says:

I was just on that sportzcosmos site and I couldn’t catch myself laughing. It seems like that is where Rafa haters gather for commiserations and for the sole purpose of bashing Rafa. AD Tennis was there, also the so called Rafan “Rafaisthebest”, and a few others.


skeezer Says:

SG1
i know he has 5 slams other than Clay. i said compared to others off Clay. Sampras, Fed, etc…


Tennis for Life Says:

Skeezer
5 slams is just one less than what your (fake) favorite all court player has won in his career on all surfaces.
Complete mockery. LMAO


Tennis for Life Says:

A lot of past greats have opined that h2h, gold, Davis cup, etc matters a lot in the goat debate.
But they don’t seem to suggest that Rafa needs to win more outside FO. Its only a few frustrated fed fans who are particular about this.


James Says:

To be the GOAT, all Rafa has to do is win more slams than Roger, spend more weeks at #1 than the Swiss maestro, at least 3 more Wimbledons, at least 4 WTFs, and more 250 level titles than Federer. Then he is the GOAT!

I hope Federer fans appreciate my post.
Thanks.


skeezer Says:

“5 slams is just one less than what your (fake) favorite all court player has won in his career on all surfaces.”

Uh? What are you talking about? Lol…

“A lot of past greats have opined that h2h, gold, Davis cup, etc matters a lot in the goat debate”

Plaease post quotes and links to “A LOT of past greats have opined …”. Please share so we all can see!


Rafaisthebest Says:

Sean:

Thanks for the articles. I hope you are right and Rafa actually becomes GOAT – for this fan atleast I would like to see Nadal win more slams outside clay and more weeks at number 1. 250 weeks at no.1 and 17 slams and the H2H will then make Rafa the GOAT.

“I was just on that sportzcosmos site and I couldn’t catch myself laughing. It seems like that is where Rafa haters gather for commiserations and for the sole purpose of bashing Rafa. AD Tennis was there, also the so called Rafan “Rafaisthebest”, and a few others.”

Ok Teeg. Now I am Rafa hater? Why because I am not blinded by Rafa kool-aid like you? I am sure Tennis X Hippy Chic is also a Nadal hater. Look at James’ last post- I think he is a Rafa hater too.

I know you are getting scared there being a Rafa fan ad seeing actual facts and tennis history being discussed. I personally think they did a great job with their GOAT analysis.

ID Fan : Do you run the site? I liked the satire on Agassi! I would like to write a similar one on Djokovic/Federer.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Majestic Tennis@4.33pm September 25th,read my post at 3.53pm,i think i made myself pretty clear then :)..


Rafaisthebest Says:

“Plaease post quotes and links to “A LOT of past greats have opined …”. Please share so we all can see!”

Skeezer: I apologize for the lack of knowledge of the other Rafa fans, and their personal attacks on you and ID Fan (and sportzcosmos, if it is your site) and even SG1 or AD Tennis

You guys have some great points and a good knowledge of history.

I would like to see these experts who have said “Davis Cup and Olympic Gold” matters more than weeks at no.1 and the 5th slam – WTF


Rafaisthebest Says:

Let me help prove another of my fellow Rafa fan, in correct. Let others decide who does Rafa a dis-service by spreading lies.

Sportz Cosmos which Teeg accuses of being a Federer fan commiseration site – has a lot of pro-Nadal articles. Feel free to check the site up and I can even give you links if you are internet-challenged like Teeg and others who spread lies about sites/people because they happen to disagree with them.

Here is a comment from one of their writers (a Federer fan himself as his name suggests)

“Teeg:

Everyone here has been polite to you and treated with you courtesy. We welcome fans of everyone with open arms. We might be a fledgling compared to Tennis-X, a site I admire a lot personally, but we are slowly growing and I am sure we are as fair to every group of fan as any other site.

Our team has fans of everyone. Please explore our site and you will find a lot of pro-rafa articles too!”

Yes, that does sound like a Federer-fan site where they are busy bashing Rafa.

Thanks for the lies, Teeg. Now please join other “Rafa Fans” hold serve and co and continue badmouthing skeezer, SG1, ID Fan and continue suspecting Tennis X Hippy Chic and myself about how we are not genuine Rafa fans.


madmax Says:

Tennis for Life Says:
Skeezer
5 slams is just one less than what your (fake) favorite all court player has won in his career on all surfaces.
Complete mockery. LMAO

September 28th, 2013 at 10:42 pm

Huh?

You need to do your maths!


Michael Says:

Alison,

Thanks !! The best way would be to set aside this GOAT discussion and evaluate the players for what they are worth. Roger, Rafa, Laver, Borg, Sampras are all generational players who have set their respective benchmarks from which they are being evaluated. I just think we should leave it at that. As I said, the time will come to reopen that debate when some player does something extraordinary just like say winning 19 or 20 majors.


James Says:

I’m glad to see an objective Rafa fan in rafaisthebest. Just says the way it is. Also objective Federer fan, Federer is GOAT. True fans.


montecarlo Says:

Barring another long injury break Nadal is almost guaranteed to have atleast 40 more weeks as world no. 1 starting from this month. So instead of looking at 102 you should already be looking at close to 150 weeks when you bring the GOAT discussion.

I am pretty sure He will pick up tonnes of points at AO so he wont need to defend all his IW and SA region points. Also barring any major surprise he is liekly to defend his clay points. He can gain tonnes of points again at Wimbledon which will definitely make up for all the hard court points he won’t be able to defend next year.

The fact is if Nadal, Murray and Djokovic keep sharing major chunk of points on Hard Courts & Grass Nadal can remain world no. 1 for a long long time only by virtue of his clay results.

IMHO 200+ weeks as world no. 1 is already looking very good.

Also Nadal has 8 slams on slow surfaces and 5 on fast surfaces compared to Sampras who got 14 slams on fast and zero on slow and Federer who got 1 slam on slow surface and 16 on fast so its better to stop this bu!!sh!t about Nadal only being a slow court player.


Slice Tennis Says:

Fed is GOAT,
Some great posts.
Good to see a fair fed fan finally in tennis-x.
LOL.


Slice Tennis Says:

“You need to do your maths!”
Skeezer and Madmax,
How many slams Nole (as per your gang the true heir to Federer in terms of all court dominance) has on all surfaces ?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Rafaisthebest both myself and Teeg actually gave credit to Roger for been the worlds greatest ever player which Skeezer thanked us both for,the only thing we were asking was for Rafa to be given credit for his achievements,no offence though but im at a loss and rather frustrated sometimes with some of your posts,im not asking you to bad mouth Roger/Nole and all their achievements,and i certainly dont expect you to defend each and everything Rafa does because god knows he aint perfect,and hell i dont either,but you dont seem to send in many positive posts regarding Rafa or his achievements,your a fan of Rafa so could you show it sometimes?


Tennis for Life Says:

Slice tennis
Thank you.
Their (fake) favorite multidimentional all court player has only 6 compared to Rafa’s (one trick pony) 5 outside clay.


skeezer Says:

Slice Tennis,

So that is what a fake fav is….Nole? You types are inventing things as you go, and trying to twist up the conversation as usual. LOL. How did he get injected into the goat conversation? You.ll try anything no? Guess bringing up h2h is getting old.
The only type of GOAthood Nole would qualify for now is the greatest crushing of a #1 player in a year. 2011? It was a debacle for Rafa, and a asterisk in his record book that will live in infamy………..7 h2h in finals…lost….since you types are changing the subject here by bringing Nole into the picture.


jatin Says:

To rafa fans (if fed played in weak era and does not deserve his slams like you are trying to imply)
Then what was rafa doing in that era ?
Why he didn’t took advanatage of weak era ??
Well , you guess it right. He was being toyed on by the players of supposedly weak era. It took him 7 to 8 years to even reach his first hard court slam finals.
Infact ,one could say rafa was lucky to win 3 slams in 2010.
with whom did he got to play in wimby and french final’s ??
Berdych ,soderling ??? Seriously.
Infact his US open 2010 was a fluke in which his only competition was a tired and immature djokovic.
Semifinals
youzhny ???? Seriously lol.
He won most of his french open slams with no comeptition other than roger. So those slams don’t count either.

So, now the actual question is .

Did he even deserved one single slam out of his 13 ????

My point is. You get to play 7 players in a slam and it don’t matter who the players are. What counts is your SLAMS.

The players of supposedly weak era like roddick have positive head to head against today’s generation’s best player (novak djokovic) and he has like 5-6 against rafa too.

Tommy hass from that era is still beating the likes of djokovic.

How can anyone say safin was a weak player ??
He was one of a kind and one of the best player i have ever seen.
How about nalbandian ??
The same player who once had a positive h2h against roger and who used to beat nadal rather easily ??????
What about hewitt ??
How can anyone say in his mind that roger’s era was weak ??

Ridiculous.


hawkeye Says:

TXHC, rafaisthebest a Rafa fan? You cannot be serious.

I think the real TENNIS players – McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi, Muzza and Nole are the true experts on GOAT. By naming Rafa, they view his collective achievements which include DC, majors, 1000s, Olympics among many others as a whole.

One by one, the real experts, PROFESSIONAL players are recognizing the true GOAT.

Cry me a river federazzi.. Too funny!!!


hawkeye Says:

jatin, waaaay too long dude. Nobody is saying Fed doesn’t deserve his 17 majors. Please provide a quote! Too funny!
And uh yeah Rafa was 17 when the weak era began. I know he’s GOAT but that’s a bit much, no?

And now skeezer wants it both ways. Hilarious !!! Typical but hilarious!!!


Giles Says:

Some of these hostile fed fans keep reminding us Rafans of Joker’s “miraculous” 2011 when he beat Rafa 7 times in finals.
Ok, so joker had a good year where he beat almost every player in sight, not just Rafa. But at the same time where was fed? Why wasn’t he in those same 7 finals? Because he wasn’t good enough!! He was beaten by lesser players well before the finals! Some Goat, eh!!!
#Vamo Rafa
#Goat


Majestic Tennis Says:

Tennis X Hippy Chic:

You are an objective Nadal fan along with Teeg and Rafaisthebest. I hope you see there is ridiculousness on both sides – Federer and Nadal fans?

Good to see some fans keeping a leash on “objective Rafa fans” like James, holdserve and others.

Jatin:

Great post. I don’t think anyone can say Roger’s era was weak. To say that implies belittles Nadal as a player, since he was the biggest rival Roger had till Djokovic joined in 2008.

Monte Carlo:

I think Djokovic will get more weeks at no.1 than Rafa, when both their careers are done!


Teeg Says:

@Tennis X Hippy Chic

Thank you…lol. I dont know what his problem is. I always give Roger his due respect. In fact, I do regard him as the best ever. His achievements are second to none. What I take offence to as a fan of Rafa is when he is not given his due for all he has achieved. He may not have made 23 straight Grand Slam SFs, or 36 straight QFs like Roger. But he has won at least 1 Major for the past 9 years – and this alone trumps Roger’s SF & QF streak.

Rafaisthebest – I have never bad-mouthed skeezer or anyone else. I just called out you, AD Tennis, and ID Tennis, because I recognised your names on that site. And I did explore the site, and in fact it was indeed a pro Rafa article I stumbled upon. When I read the comments however it was clear to me like I mentioned that there were few if any Rafa fans there. As the people commenting had one purpose and one purpose only – to bash Rafa. That’s all I pointed out.


hawkeye Says:

I’m greatful for the challenge Nole presented to Rafa (and the rest of the field for that matter) in 2011. For me, the first eight months Nole played represented the highest level of tennis I’ve ever seen from one player. Outstanding!!!

How Rafa found solutions to this formidable challenge only further cements his GOATness. In contrast, Rafa presented a similar challenge to Fed which Fed could not solve.

I’m sure past and present tennis greats on record also consider this as well.

Ajde Nole!!! You are a true great!


hawkeye Says:

^^^^ grateful. Too eager to press that send button lol!


hawkeye Says:

Well no offence Majestic, but glad you haven’t been fretting over Rafa’s recent 5-1 domination over Nole. What’s Fed’s and Muzza’s record been against Nole over that same time period?


jatin Says:

@hawkeye

So by this logic. You are trying to say “strong era began when rafa started dominating the tour “?
But wait ??
Rafa never dominated the tour.

The fact which most people knows and understand is.
“There was a guy named roger federer who took the tennis world like a Strom and raised the bar to such ridicously high standard that all the players who faced him looked weak in comparision.”
As a fan of tennis a 2 decades now. I have never seen such domination ever.
In a era where players were ruthless. Safin, hewitt, roddick ,rafa etc.

There is no such thing as weak era and i think this argument was created to despise roger’s federer achievement because lets face it. His achievements cannot be matched by any player ever.

He has defeated the best of the best including nadal (3 times with one bagel ) 6 TIMES. And for me , there is nothing more harder or difficult than winning a WTF facing the best of the best.


jatin Says:

@hawkeye

And even in 2011 when novak destroyed every opponent ruthlessly. There was an old man (a player from weak era) standing firm and gave nole the run for his money everytime he faced him. I still remember that french open semifinals and the USO 2011 semifinals.

It was an old roger federer from weak era who stopped novak from winning a calender grand slam.

I still think if roger could find his game back then he will win atleast 2 more slams


hawkeye Says:

Roger Federer is an amazing tennis player. It is not his fault he played in a weak era. The weak era ended when Rafa, Nole and Muzza began to reach physical maturity in 2008 or, as holdserve intelligently pointed out, more than one player consistently reached slam finals.


hawkeye Says:

Here is holdserve’s quite genius post IMHO:

holdserve Says:
2003 to 2007 is called the weak era not because Fed was winning everything but because there was no true rival. A true rival is one who is also better than the field and so would have been the other finalist most times and even assuming Fed was better than him, he, the other guy would have been no. 2. Was there anybody of Fed’s generation who satisfied this ? No.
Fed being so much better than the others accounts for his winning everything but there being no consistent other finalist proves there was no great rival who was better than the field.
Contrast it with today. There are 4 guys who are better than the field and they are generally the semifinalists and finalists. A super strong era.
Each of the greats has 3 great rivals!!! Fed had none between 2003 and 2007.

… plus my humble follow up…

From 2003-2007, Fed’s wins in slam finals came against:
Philippoussis
Safin
Roddick (3X)
Hewitt
Agassi (35 yrs old in a slam final, telling)
Bahgdatis
Gonzalez
Djokovic (20 yrs.)
Nadal (2X @ 20-21 yrs old)

No one could consistently make it to the final in the other half because, other than Fed, no one else rose above the pack.


hawkeye Says:

Majestic, since Rafa’s gone 5-1 vs Nole, Nole holds winning records over Muzza (5-4) and Fed (3-2) so you might want to rethink your fretting, no?

Just sayin’.


holdserve Says:

Jatin, the point is Fed had no rivals of his caliber in his age group in the era 2003-2007 and could therefore easily dominate the field. This is a fact and no matter how much you deny this, it still remains a fact.
Mention one other player in Fed’s age group who was consistently the other grand slam finalist?
In fact teen aged Rafa, Nole and Muzz gave him more rivalry than the players in his age group.

Mark what happened when Rafa, Nole and Muzza came of age. Fed no longer dominated as he had in the weak era. All 4 are usually the semifinalists and two of them are usually the finalists. In fact there hasn’t been even one grand slam final since 2008 when at least one of the Big 4 is not in the final. There has been only one slam winner ( Del Potro) outside these 4 and apart from him only Soderling (2), Berdych (1), Ferrer(1)and Tsonga(1) have been able to make a slam final. Out of 24 finals i.e. 48 finalists, only six have been non Big 4.
In fact in the years 2008-2012 when both Rafa and Fed were in their prime, Rafa leads Fed. (I am taking 2013 as out of Fed’s prime). In slams Rafa:7, Fed: 5. Slam finals (despite Rafa missing two slams till end 2012): Rafa: 11, Fed: 10
In masters, there is no comparision. Rafa is way ahead.
Both had two year end no. 1s.
Just because it is your opinion that nothing is more diffult than winning WTF, it does not make WTF most important.
Fed has never won Rome. Why is it so difficult for him if nothing is more difficult than WTF?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Majestic Tennis thankyou and yes i do realize that the two fan groups can be as bad as each other,i always try to be fair to the best of my ability,not easy when you get pulled this way and that way,but i never have had any anymosity towards Roger or Nole,whose achievements are fantastic,well maybe a little when they beat one of my favorites,Murray been the other lol.


holdserve Says:

Correction…..Fed had one year end no. 1 to Rafa’s 2 year end no. 1s.


Stewart Haimson Says:

In mens top 50 or so tennis, everyone is good enough to beat any other player. Rodger had plenty of tough competition, you probably just don’t like him that much. He is the best ever and just has trouble with Rafa’s style.


Skeezer Says:

Rafa was and is the best 2nd ranked player in this era.


Slice Tennis Says:

Rafa has beaten Federer twice as many times and won everything including the gold medal and Davis Cup.


Slice Tennis Says:

Federer, Rafa and Laver are the top three GOAT contenders.


James Says:

Roger is the best ever but Rafa is better;)

Enough of this GOAT battle between the fans, no?

Is Rafa the GOAT or greater than Roger Federer? The answer is revealed in 2015.

Keep watching tennis.


holdserve Says:

When Fed was below 22 he was not even ranked no. 2. Rafa has a long tenure at no. 2 only because he was better than Fed.
So skeezer you are just proving that Fed played in a weak era and Rafa is more talented than Fed.

Stewart Harrison, true anyone can beat anyone on any day but how many of the top 50 in 2003-2007 who were in Fed’s age group i.e. do not count Rafa, Nole and Muzz because they were pre-prime and do not count Agassi as he was post prime, how many of them consistently made semifinals and Finals.
Assuming there was one strong rival for Fed then he and Fed should have made at least 90% of all slam finals (remember there are two finalists so just Fed making finals would make the percentage just 50%)
If there were two rivals, Fed and those two should have together made more than 90% of all slam finals.
Who were they? Name those one or two otherwise stop repeating the same unsubstantiated by facts claim.


Steve 27 Says:

I think Djokovic will get more weeks at no.1 than Rafa, when both their careers are done!

No, the Djoker will be married, when a player is married, their sports performance floor a lot, let alone if it becomes father.


Slice Tennis Says:

Federer cannot be the best ever because he didn’t beat Rafa.


Slice Tennis Says:

“when a player is married, their sports performance floor a lot, let alone if it becomes father.”

No thats not entirely true. That was just one of the umpteen excuses fed fans have come up with for Federer’s decline since he turned 27.


Steve 27 Says:

Hhahhaa


jatin Says:

@holdserver
andy roddick.
Lyton hewitt
marat safin
David nalbandian
To name a few. David nalbandian had a posititve H2h against fed until roger reached his absolute peak.
Andy roddick. A guy who still has a positive H2H against novak. (do i have anything more to say ? )

They didn’t consistently reached finals because the field was quite comepetitive where players like blake could beat anyone in their days. I still remember the way blake defeated rafa in US open.

These guys of today are finally reaching the BAR roger has set for a decade.
I have no doubt that roger of 2006 could still dominate the filed like he did back then. Infact roger of 2012 pretty much did it and showed the flashes of roger of 2006 in wimbledon 2012.
What about cincinatti’s finals where he bageled the best player of the world ??

You are underestimating roger.
Roger didn’t won rome because it was on clay (his weakest surface ) and because of king of clay.

But tell me a single tournament other than WTF where you have to play the world’s best without any bye’s or journeyman’s ???
These players fight tooth and nail to participate in WTF


James Says:

This weak era argument is stupid. Fed did not win most of his slams in a weak era. Rafa just collected his against tougher opponents.

Rafa still needs to win a couple of slams more off clay to be the GOAT of his era, over Federer and others. It’s very much on his racquet.


James Says:

Roddick was just a bad match-up for Nole. Roger is also pretty much a bad match-up yet Nole’s beaten him 13 times. Gotta say, Novak’s quite a fighter.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

I wouldnt be at all surprised if both Roger and Rafa have the same amount of GS by the time they both retire.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Just to add,if both were to end their careers with the same amount of GS,i wonder what it will come down to on deciding who is the GOAT?


holdserve Says:

Jatin,
How many finals did Roddick reach? How many Hewitt? How many Safin? Or Nalbandian? The fact that you claim these are only a few of those who challenged Fed proves my point that none of these guys made the finals consistently.
There being many different finalists is a sign of a weak era because it shows none could separate themselves from the pack.
Only Fed was consistently the finalist so he had separated himself from the pack.
No other player had separated himself from the pack i.e. they were all part of the pack so Fed had no rival.
A rival for Fed is one who has also separated himself from the pack and usually loses only to Fed. No one satisfies this in 2003-2007.
Weak era proved!!!
The current era has 4 who have separated themselves from the pack. They usually lose only to each other.


holdserve Says:

I realize it is an exercise in futility quoting facts to Fed fans.
I am now calling a halt to my participation in the GOAT debate at least for a couple of months.
By 2016 we will have a better idea of Nole, Rafa and Muzz’s legacy. What if Muzz does a calendar slam? He will enter the GOAT debate. What if Nole does it? He strengthens his claim to GOAThood.
The only known fact so far is that Fed is not the GOAT.


holdserve Says:

ok, Fed can be the GOAT if he reverses that h2h in slam finals before he retires.


holdserve Says:

correction…..Fed can enter the GOAT debate if he reverses that slam final h2h. Till then he is disqualified.


Steve 27 Says:

“Rod Laver is in the picture,” Nadal said. “If I have to say something about Rod, if we can compare Roger with another one to be the best of the history, is with Rod Laver because he won two times, no, the Grand Slam, so then he didn’t play the Grand Slams for few years because he turn professional, so he was not able to play. So he won once, and then he played again another time and he was able to win.


skeezer Says:

holdserve,
until you can come up with a logical objective goat debate YOU are disqualified. to say Fed is dis qualified only makes you look uncredible. he is at the cery top of the debate, and the cery best qualified.


Hawkeye Says:

Holdserve already said he’s done on this debate for a while. He deserves a break. He has no need to repeat himself.

He and I plus a growing number including tennis greats both past and present agree Rafa is GOAT in our opinion.

Of course fed fans are entitled to their own.

You’re welcome.


hawkeye Says:

There’s no such thing as an “objective” GOAT debate. It’s subjective opinion by its very nature. There is no agreed criteria LMAO!


jatin Says:

@holdserve
Cannot understand your logic at all.
Weak era proved ?
Says who ?

I am done. Its impossible to have a logical debate with you.
Ok , rafa is a GOAT. Happy.


Skeezer Says:

Hawkeye aka holdserve,
Its obvious you and holdserve hold hands when fantasizing Rafa love, but try to keep up with reality please. You claim facts but don’t back it up with link eveidence, or do and twist it at best.
And saying that holdserve is finished debating goat talk?
Lol, she(how do you know she is a he?) is too addicted here to stay away from that!
——
Hey breakserve,
“The only known fact so far is that Fed IS the GOAT.”
Live in it, deal with it, enjoy it, cherish it, own up to it.


ID Fan Says:

Rafaisthebest: I do the website maintenance for sportzcosmos

Skeezer: Let us all close this topic with, as of today, Federer is the GOAT. Nadal is in the conversation. That is what Agassi and Sampras said.


ID Fan Says:

I don’t see anybody stopping Rafa to the final so he is definetelly getting number 1 place at ATP rankings…

Courbon – I agree with you. I hope Nole will stop him in the final and start his own come-back.


hawkeye Says:

Wow, I’d say something but that post pretty much speaks for itself. I’m not going to stoop to such a low level. Tennis, after all, is just a game.

I don’t expect the federazzi to accept the new GOAT. What kind of so-called fed “fan” would do that, no?

I put more weight in the opinions of past and present tennis greats who are stating that Rafa is the GOAT.


hawkeye Says:

Peter Bodo, yet another Rafanatic from Rafatopia…

“The ATP has a similar problem with its World Tour Finals, even if the event is a huge hit and a hot ticket in the capital city of tennis, London. You don’t get the sense that players are falling all over themselves in the race to qualify.”

“The anticlimactic year-end champs”

http://espn.go.com/blog/peter-bodo/post/_/id/447/the-anticlimactic-year-end-champs


jamie Says:

1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras.
4. Nadal
5. Borg


skeezer Says:

I hope all tennis fans here, not fed fans nor rafa, see through the constant BS that gets posted here by these types.

Posting a link by Bodo and then cherry picking the story, when it was mostly about the WTA, is Tennis blasphemy. He also went on to say that WTF was “the event is a huge hit..”. Its easy to do this and twist, no?

Same with this;

“I put more weight in the opinions of past and present tennis greats who are stating that Rafa is the GOAT.”
Example; Sampras stated as of late Rafa was in the conversation, but clearly did not state currently “Rafa is the GOAT.

Rafa may very well wind up being GOAT, but he is clearly not atm. His records do not match up to Fed. The argument that should be in more discussion is compared to Sampras, who still holds the lead over Rafa in Slams.


Polo Says:

If I were a professional tennis player and my career was to end now, I would like it to be more like Federer’s than Nadal’s. Federer’s is more complete and more fulfilled. Nadal’s still needs some finishing touch.


hawkeye Says:

Weak. The excerpt I quoted was in full context and stood on its own plus I provided the referenced link. Doesn’t change the fact that players don’t try very hard to make the WTF because they’d rather use the time to rest, prepare for DC and the new year

WTF is a showcase. Only players obligated to play attend.

Very desperate attempt from the federazz.

I don’t see the past and present tennis greats singling out Fed as GOAT anymore. They are jumping on the Rafutopia bandwagon one by one LMAO.


skeezer Says:

^it wasn’t in full context of the article. Google search some more, after all your a REAL google search player.


hawkeye Says:

The federazzi are not fond of the facts. Google is their enemy LMAO.

Next time I will post the whole article for you since you have difficulty clicking on a link.

Poor federazzi. The tennis greats no longer support the paper GOAT. Don’t worry. Like Fed and Sampras before him, Rafa won’t be GOAT forever. Some future star will eventually come along LOL.


skeezer Says:

1500 ATP points matters. More than a Masters. Winning against the rop 8 players in a tourney…….. matters. Its the only tournamnent where only the top 8 get invited). It matters……
And regardless of some uneducated goodle search fanatics, your year end rankng could be affected. It matters……

And they don’t care, its a show only. Why do they play?
It matters.


hawkeye Says:

Yeah just me and all of those players who declined the opportunity in 2008 don’t think it matters I’m sure.

Hilarious!


hawkeye Says:

Oh and last but not least ( well ok least) Bodo!

Whatever helps you sleep federazzi lol! Too funny.


skeezer Says:

All tennis fans here are “fond of the facts”. Problem is, you don’t post them, you post your “own” facts you invent. Everyon here can read and determine…..

And Bodo? Funny you types are giving him credibilty now. Awhile back the rafafanatic clan was claiming he was a rafa hater and the worst writer ever.
Hey, its now whatever way the wind blows, eh? LMAO. Bodo is awesome!! Hehe…

Keep up your professional “google search player” opinion. It matters…..


hawkeye Says:

Hahaha well it would seem to matter to you lol with all of your arguments.

Yes you are correct that Bodo (never thought I’d see the day) has also jumped on the Rafutopia wagon with his recent praisings of Rafa. Took him a while but he got there eventually.

Look, dear skeezer, I respect the opinion that you and the Fed faithful have of Fed as GOAT. His WTF multiple wins are part of the argument for him as GOAT along with his record majors.

As you might have gathered, I don’t agree but it’s just my opinion. Don’t get too worked up over it. I have no problem with anyone who sees Fed as the best player of all time.

Ok?

Nighty night now! :)


roy Says:

”Only pointing out, which is a FACT, that he won a majoirty of them on ONE surface. I’ll say it again, read closely;
“Rafa is relatively a 1 court wonder compared to the others.”
Rinse and repeat.”

nadal slams

CLAY: 8
NON CLAY: 5

fed slams

HARD: 9
NON HARD: 8

so if nadal wins two non-clay slams next year suddenly his ratio essentially matches federer and he goes from ”relatively a one court wonder” to a ”balanced” champion? with 2 slams?
pretty flimsy argument. the ratios aren’t that different at present.


skeezer Says:

@roy,
Uh?
Sampras has 13 non Clay titles, or 7 Wimbys on Grass and 6 HC Slams.
And your sayin IF rafa wins 2 more non Clay titles then?? Whaaaa?
Sampras was clearly not a one court wonder by far in comparisan.
Soooo laughable.
But …you know….It’s Rafalogic of course. Hehe…

“so if nadal….”
Ahhh the “ifs”, so common with rafanatics.
@roy,
Come back when …..”rafa has done”…..not “if”.
There is plenty of “ifs” goin around in rafa loveland.
When rafa changes the “if’s” to “done”(which he may very well do) then you all can claim whatever. Till then, respect to the person(s) who are clearly ahead of your man. And quit the ditzing, it shows your biased ugly colors.


James Says:

Among the tennis GOATs, Rafa Nadal perhaps in the only one with multiple slams on all three surfaces. The rest are two surface wonders.


Perfect fan Says:

Does that mean that fed is a 2 surface wonder….?? u mus be kiddin’ me huh??…..

Fed has reached 4 consecutive RG finals & 5 in total(’06 to ’19 & ’11) winning once and in other 4 got defeated to rafa himself (who is simply inhumane on clay)….this is no bloody joke.

I completely agree that rafa himself is no one surface wonder and is truly a complete player….but excuse me! fed is the most complete player ever….remember what the great Jimmy Connors once said, “In an era of specialists, u r either a HC specialist, a CC specialist, a GC specialist or u r Roger Federer”….he didn’t say that jus for the heck of it.

Plus, had rafa not there in 2006 & 2007 RG finals, Fed wud have been completed the calender slam 2 times and that too consecutively….lotsa people 4get that.

But all said, i still believe that rafa (if his health permits) could be the next in line to best fed in terms of all court versatility and to be the best ever…..but till then he is 2nd in line.

Rafa has multiple slams on all 3 surfaces….spot on! fed is 2 surface wonder….BS….chk the facts!!


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Perfect Fan great post completely agree with everything your saying.


hawkeye Says:

Real TENNIS greats past and present know who the new GOAT is today. Don’t see too many greats coming out and naming fed anymore.


Steve 27 Says:

Nadal and Wilander are the only ones to win at least 2 majors on clay, grass and hardcourt. The question is if Rafa can win another Wimbledon he would be the only one to win at 3 on each surface and with another Australian open he would be the only man in the open era to win a double career grand slam (Laver and Emerson are the only ones to have done so far)


James Says:

LOL Perfect Fan. Agree with you completely.


hawkeye Says:

Yeah Jimmy said that back in 2006. He was right back then too.


SG1 Says:

Competition is a relevant argument. Andy Roddick won his USO in 2003 when he beat Ferrero in the final. What if it’s Roger Federer on the other side of the net instead of Ferrero? Roger won Wimbledon in ’03. It was a possibility. What if he’d run into Agassi in the final? He ran into a guy not nearly as accomplished on hard courts as either Fed or Andre.


SG1 Says:

Roger wasn’t ready to win the USO yet.


skeezer Says:

SG1
totally concur. some of these idiots just don’t get it. you have to get the final. sometimes the best player doesn’t get there. why? he got beat by somebody supposedly not as good, lol.
doesn’t matter, whoever makes it to the final, deserves to be there, no matter what year they played in.


Giles Says:

skeezer. Am somewhat surprised the moderator is allowing your post to go through. You calling posters “idiots” is extremely rude. You Havnt bribed them by any chance?
Just asking!!!


hawkeye Says:

Giles, that’s all @skeezer knows. Nothing substantive to say unfortunately. Kind of ironic given the pot-black-kettle content of the post.


skeezer Says:

Gills
“Some of these posters..” Some, not all, nor specific. Quit trying to be a rattlesnake.


skeezer Says:

Sorry, mis spell…Giles………………;)


Hawkeye Says:

When one has nothing of substance to say and is defensive, one unfortunately resorts to insults.

Even though I (and many TENNIS greats past and present) think Rafa is GOAT, I can still respect the opinion of others. It’s just a game.

Some fed fans should chillax.


skeezer Says:

“When one has nothing of substance to say and is defensive”

Like

“Even though I (and many TENNIS greats past and present) think Rafa is GOAT”

lol


Rafael Nadal Says He’ll Need 4 Years Of Good Health, Results To Pass Federer’s 17 Slams Says:

[...] round win over Santiago Giraldo in Beijing, 13-time Grand Slam champion Rafael Nadal addressed the GOAT question that both Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi raised last [...]


Hawkeye Says:

Novak Djokovic Says:

I think he’s the best ever because, even though he’s 24 years old, he has done so much already.


Hawkeye Says:

John McEnroe Says:

This guy is to me, I think you can make an argument right here and now, the greatest player that ever lived. If you look at his record against [Andy] Murray, [Roger] Federer, and [Novak] Djokovic, it’s way better than that. He won the Olympics. He’s got Davis Cups, which Roger doesn’t have.


Hawkeye Says:

Andy Murray Says:

There are many things I could have done a bit better tonight – but I didn’t. He’s probably the greatest player to play tennis.


Hawkeye Says:

Skeezer Says:

Where did my Lindt chocolates go.


Hawkeye Says:

Andre Agassi Says:

Until Nadal, you would say Fed was probably the best of all time.

Agree with Andre. Explains all the upset tummies some Fed fans have watching Rafa LMAO.


Hawkeye Says:

Brad Gilbert said on Twitter immediately after the final won by Nadal: “There’s your GOAT [Greatest of All Time]”

Fed bandwagon is having a seat sale. Keep the faith Federazzi.


hawkeye Says:

Jim Courier, a four-time Major winner, believes that because Nadal dominated Federer head-to-head, it’s impossible to call Federer the GOAT.

On Fed’s anemic h2h vs Rafa and its affect on Roger’s GOAT claim:

“Very good question and tough question to answer,” Sampras said. “I do understand the argument as far as being the best ever. You have to be the man of your generation. He has come up short against Nadal. I can see the point. It’s hard to answer that. Roger’s career isn’t done yet. He’s going to play Nadal a number of times over the next number of years, and he has to beat him. He has to beat him in the finals of majors.”

“It would have bothered me if I had a losing record against Andre in majors,” said Sampras, who was 6-3 against Agassi at the Slams and never lost to him at the US Open on a surface they both grew up on. “It wouldn’t have sat well with me”

“I mean, if I was 7 15 against Andre and I was done, it’s hard to say I was the player of my generation just because he got the best of me.”

So many TENNIS players past and present say it like it is.

You’re welcome.


hawkeye Says:

Roger Federer says:

It’s KILLING Me!


hawkeye Says:

Nice to see that “recluse” Pete Sampras will be at next year’s Aussie Open and Fed will be the ambassador for Kids’ Tennis Day. Also good that Papa Tomic will be banned.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/reclusive-pete-sampras-to-present-rich-2014-australian-open-prize-20131002-2urxh.html


hawkeye Says:

Wow, 2nd week in a row that Stan failed to win a match that would have made him Swiss No. 1 in the Race to London against guys he should have beaten (Querrey and Benneteau).


Slice Tennis Says:

Hawkeye,

Some great posts as usual from you. Keep it up.

Where is that guy who asked for quotes ?


hawkeye Says:

Thank you Slice Tennis. I don’t think I’m any worse than that guy, no? (Or any better admittedly.)


There is no GOAT Says:

Before Sampras hit his 13th slam…was there ever any talk of GOAT? There was debate who was better but tennis really didn’t care about GOATS or Total # of Slams until Sampras came along and made it his mission.

If players in the Open Era really cared about # of slams they would not have missed/skipped so many in their careers. What if Borg played the Australian?

From Borg: “When I boycotted the Australian, I was trying to make a statement. I had made my mind up. My point was that a player requires some time to himself, he can’t keep rushing from one court to another all the time without a break.”

For Rod Laver it was about a calendar slam. For Jimmy Connors it was about the total titles, for Sampras it was about Slams and 6 years at #1.

Sampras only cared about Wimbledon and the US Open. He never cared for the French and how many times did he miss the Australian Open?

I would say Sampras started the movement for Grand Slam importance.


Benjamin Ben Kirby Tennyson Says:

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