Ray Moore Steps Down As Indian Wells CEO And Tournament Director
by Staff | March 22nd, 2016, 9:40 am
  • 127 Comments

Amid public outrage over his controversial comments Sunday, Ray Moore is out as CEO and Tournament Director of the Indian Wells Masters.

During an innocent breakfast meeting with journalists Sunday before the women’s final, Moore said the WTA should “get on their knees” and thank God that Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal were born because the women’s tour was riding the “coattails” of those two superstars.

He also made a remark that the future of WTA is in good hands because of “attractive” stars like Garbine Muguruza and Eugenie Bouchard are on the rise.

Several top women in tennis including Serena Williams, 2016 champion Victoria Azarenka, Martina Navratilova and Billie Jean King all took strong offense to the comments. And as the growing support for Moore’s resignation swelled, the tournament and owner Larry Ellison released this statement Monday night:

“Earlier today I had the opportunity to speak with Raymond Moore,” said BNP Paribas Open Owner, Larry Ellison. “Ray let me know that he has decided to step down from his roles as CEO and Tournament Director effective immediately. I fully understand his decision.

“Nearly half a century ago, Billie Jean King began her historic campaign for the equal treatment of women in tennis. What followed is an ongoing, multi-generational, progressive movement to treat women and men in sports equally. Thanks to the leadership of Billie Jean, Martina Navratilova, Venus Williams, Serena Williams and so many other great women athletes, an important measure of success has already been achieved. I’m proud to say that it is now a decade long tradition at our tournament at Indian Wells, and all the major tennis tournaments, to pay equal prize money to both the women and the men.

“I would like to personally thank all the great women athletes who fought so hard for so many years in the pursuit of equal prize money in professional tennis. And I’d like to congratulate them on their success. All of us here at the BNP Paribas Open promise to continue working with everyone to make tennis a better sport for everybody,” concluded Ellison.

The 69-year-old Moore took over as head of Indian Wells when Steve Simon left to lead the WTA last October.

While Moore has not made a public comment since the end of the tournament, on Sunday night, Moore’s daughter, Amanda, left this post under a blog post on this site.

“My dad has given his life to the game of tennis, and this morning he made a mistake – which every human has done. This by no means make him a sexist. In the world of tennis my dad has been fighting for equal prize money for women’s players and equal treatment in general for as long as I can remember. It is no secret that there are discrepancies between the genders in the game. My dad has fought for equality and has often told me that the women’s players work hard and the men work hard – there should be no difference in how they’re treated or rewarded. He is a champion of women – he is where I get strength from. He was the first tennis player to stand up against ex-hall of fame doubles playe Bob Hewitt for his crimes against female tennis players. He regrets what he said this morning more than any of you will ever know, so I felt I needed to stand up for him, because he has always stood up for me – especially when I make mistakes.”

Moore played on the men’s ATP tour mostly in the 70s reaching the Wimbledon and US Open quarterfinals, and won singles title and eight doubles. He also helped South Africa to the Davis Cup title in 1974.

Moore served as a player representative on the MIPTC (Men’s International Pro Tennis Council) and was elected Chairman of MIPTC in September of 1986. He was also a member of ATP Board of Directors and was ATP President from 1983-85.


You Might Like:
Novak Djokovic Agrees, Indian Wells Should Be At A Level Higher Than Masters 1000
Indian Wells CEO Ray Moore Says WTA Rides Men’s Coattails, Then Backtracks
Why Did Serena Williams Return To Indian Wells?
Federer Says He’ll Investigate Why The ATP Turned Down An $800K Infusion Into Indian Wells Prize Money
Novak Djokovic: Men Should Get More Prize Money Than Women Since We Sell More Tickets Right Now

Don't miss any tennis action, stay connected with Tennis-X

Get the FREE TX daily newsletter

127 Comments for Ray Moore Steps Down As Indian Wells CEO And Tournament Director

Okiegal Says:

Good!


RZ Says:

No surprise here. If he had been the director of an ATP event, he could have stayed on, but as a director of a joint event there’s no way he could have stayed after saying those derogatory things about the women.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

The internet age: say something off, witch-hunt goes on, next day you’re jobless. It was a rude thing to say, and offensive, but its a shame to lose a job one has dedicated so much to for something so minor.

Whatsisname the artist said, in the future everyone will have 15 minutes of fame. Now, it’s 15 minutes of shame– the internet attacks and we are all defenceless against the million-headed Twitter beast.


James Says:

Classic case of a really demeaning statement in poor state – but with a core message that actually is not that wrong. Still, he should have had more sense and less arrogance to not add the unnecessary insulting language in the statement. He should be fired for that, its the right decision.


RZ Says:

@TennisVagabond – it might seem minor to you, but it’s half of the participants of the tournament he was running that he offended.


Margot Says:

Serena didn’t need the “twitter beast.” Perhaps all tennis fans and players in the USA should go down on their knees and thank Serena and Venus Williams for keeping the US tennis flag flying.


chrisford1 Says:

RZ – I guess the point is at one time we had a political consensus that destroying the livelihood of a person, removing them from army, university, government positions because of what they believed was profoundly un-American. Even forcing resignations of Hollywood writers for statements supporting Russia that OFFENDED most Americans and maintaining a feminist-like blacklist – was so morally wrong, despite Stalin & Co destroying tens of millions of lives and tolerating no such issent themselves – it was a dark, dark chapter in US history. It was INTOLERANCE and to avoid being as bad as the National Socialists, Chicoms, NORKs, Saudis – we had to be TOLERANT Americans.

Well, that was then. Now thanks to PC and a new Fascist spirit on the Left – blacklisting is again an ideal way to retaliate against any speech that some are intolerant of and claim OFFENSE at. If that is the way voters want it, and want it in Canada and UK as well as other places…so be it. Free speech dies. Perhaps new people in power will just shift the targets of the new, acceptable blacklisting and free speech disrupting tactics we have fallen into.

How can a movie studio employ some communist subversives that offend not alf, but all decent Americans, I ask you, Mr Chairman??? Joe McCarthy US Senate 1951.


skeezer Says:

Amanda,
Thank you for your courage and statement about your Dad. Although the whole situation seems sad all around, your love and defense of your Father obviously shows the love he has for you and you for him. All the best going forward for you both. We ALL make mistakes, there is not one person in this world who has not made one.


Ben Pronin Says:

TV, the problem is, as the CEO, he’s one of the main faces of the tournament. And his views will be associated with the tournament’s views more often than not, and they can’t have that.

I don’t think the existence of Twitter started something new here. When big people make disparaging remarks, they deal with consequences. On the one hand, it definitely is a shame. On the other hand, you’re a CEO and you gotta be a lot smarter than that. In fact, you’re expected to be a lot smarter than that so obviously you come off in a bad light to everyone else who have control over your job security.

There are just some things you don’t say in a professional setting.


RZ Says:

@ChrisFord – no one is being blacklisted here. Ray Moore has plenty of other options for working at tennis tournaments. The WTA tournaments won’t hire him, and other joint-tournaments probably wouldn’t either, but there are many ATP tournaments, as well as the ITF.


chrisford1 Says:

RZ – And the blacklisted Hollywood writers were free to move to another country to gain employment, and free to continue writing using a frontman or frontwoman to mask their work in return for a cut from their upfront shill.
So I guess that wasn’t so bad after all, just as cops blacklisted for an ill advised off-duty interdepartment email slurring a criminal class can always find work as a security guard or mall cop.

Looking at it that way, free speech was not chilled and the blacklisted had no real beef.


SG1 Says:

Ben Pronin Says:

TV, the problem is, as the CEO, he’s one of the main faces of the tournament. And his views will be associated with the tournament’s views more often than not, and they can’t have that.

————–

Exactly. This was a business decision made by a board of directors. He said things that the B.O.D. felt would devalue the brand. They asked him to step down and gave him a golden parachute. He’s not being thrown to the wolves without another means of surviving.

Joseph McCarty never apologized for the climate of paranoia and insanity that he cultivated. Moore screwed up…in a pretty big way and he owned up to it. He showed contrition publically. The guy made genuinely f%^$^$%$d up and he’s now swallowing the medicine and taking responsibility for what he said. People have done far worse without any remorse whatsoever.


Jack Lewis Says:

@chrisford1
Your comments are hilarious, I wondered for half a second if this was april 1st of something.

There is a lot of black listing and idiotic SJW BS going on in the world, but THIS was not an instance of it at all. He made some really dumb comments and suffered the consequences. There was no witch hunt involved unless jumping down in the middle of a public space shouting “I am a WITCH!!!!” constitutes such a thing.


SG1 Says:

It’s also the result of cameras, media, cell phones, etc. being focused on famous (…or wealthy) people 24/7 365. I’m pretty sure that each and every one of us here has said or done something that we’re glad isn’t plastered all over social media. To err is human after all.


jane Says:

cf1, think of the very word “witchhunt” – from whence does it come? genocide of women who were thought to be witches? i think you’re mixing up two very different things: blacklisting was about racism and ideology – antisemitism and anticommunism in the context of the cold war.

fighting (or hoping) for equality isn’t the same. and it’s not like a bunch of people have been called before a committee and refused work, as RZ correctly points out. *one CEO* was fired for his unacceptable comments, particularly given his high profile position, as Ben points out. that happens in the real, business world every day.

[you know what else still happens? rape as a tool or war, and honour killings. :'( sigh... truly re-think the antifeminism. it's not about being PC; it's about being human and treating all human beings equally. ]


jalep Says:

♥ you, jane. thank-you for the perspective.

[you know what else still happens? rape as a tool or war, and honour killings. :'( sigh... truly re-think the antifeminism. it's not about being PC; it's about being human and treating all human beings equally. ]


jalep Says:

jane, may I copy your post and quote you elswhere?


jane Says:

sure jalep – and don’t even bother “quoting” me; i.e., it is all common knowledge, or it should be.


jalep Says:

Thank-you, jane. It should be common knowledge. But there’s a difference between how you word it and how I do. I admire your way. You use less words and put it succinctly.

A brief, to the point, reminder of history and a reminder of current events is relevant now more than ever. The reasons and importance for applying tact and compassion are important and humanitarian. Unfortunately, in this election year the sensibility of it is lost.


calmdownplease Says:

Good grief!
I am out of T-X due to yet more underwhelming performances from Le Muzzington (is there any other kind now?), I come back in hope for a Miami style renaissance and perhaps some reasonably worthwhile insights too (from a few of you at least) and;
WOW!
A full on ‘battle of the sexes’ has taken place in my absence!
Now I am up to speed on this controversy due to the enormous coverage and debate it has generated and think that Moore should have been fired, in my view.
Not because of what he had said which was, without a doubt, 100 PERCENT C.O.R.R.E.C.T.
But really, for the inexplicably tacky & unprofessional way that he had publicly chosen to express it.
It’s simply not necessary to say things to journalists like that, and now look at the result; his head is on the proverbial platter!
Well, maybe he was slightly intoxicated when he made it, I know the feeling, but still, it was not acceptable to go ON like that.
What with the vulgar (hopefully accidental!) suggestion that Serena and Maria should be bl*wing Fedal and all the rest.
Not very smart now, was it?
A rather bad show, so he had to go.
Oh, but duly scr*w the feminazis, SJWs, Jihadis and other evil cry bully sc*m, won’t you?
Or send them to/back to the Middle East where they would have good reason to whine.
Bringing up dictionary definitions of what ‘Feminism’ is is a nice tactic, oft implemented but quite irrelevant, I’m afraid.
In the real world, Feminism has mostly become an authoritarian movement that has NOTHING do with egalitarianism anymore (if it ever did) and a lot to do with misandry and the demonization of men.
The clue is in the name, you see.
And I’m afraid the victim status posturing and the shaming tactics are starting to ring a bit (read; a lot) hollow now…..
At least to anyone awake and in possession of a functioning intellect.
So well done CF1, I agreed with many of your posts in spirit, albeit just not for this particular matter.
And the rest of you can get off your effing ass*s into the G*d d*mn kitchen and make me a sandwich!!!!!
RIGHT NOW!
Or something like that…
Especially if you’re feminists!
Sorry for the length but you dont have to read it either
Peace!
😇


Green Lady Says:

Now please tell us all how you really feel ….


calmdownplease Says:

weeeelllll, funny you should say that because I thought long and hard about doing that but decided to reign it in, this time…

😘


Van Persie Says:

^ am very glad you did it


vox Says:

Interesring piece written by woman:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article
Is Chelsea football club paying the same to male and female teams? Real Madrid perhaps? What about NBA?
And what about juniors, seniors, doubles or disabled tennis players? They are paid less, so should we see them less worthy? No, and we shouldnt! No that’s not it.
I think that this is about economy, and ratings and not about gender at all, so if we want equality pay doubles players, juniors and disabled the same also, and pay female football/soccer players the same please.. Or at least raise the issue, because it is hypocrisy if you don’t..
I’m looking forward to some other oppinions, so please, exchange thoughts


Green Lady Says:

Well in football, if women are playing ninety minutes of football then they should get equal money, its not like they play only fourty five minutes, im not a feminist, or a sexist, but i do want equal rights, as long as everybody is doing the exact same amount of work, then and only then, they should get the exact same pay, its pretty cut and dried, well as far as im concerned ….


RZ Says:

@CDP – at least you didn’t miss another GOAT debate.


Tennisfan Says:

No surprises here. And this isn’t exclusive to Moore’s situation. Even if you work in retail and start saying demeaning things to customers you’re sure to get fired. Businesses are not going to risk damaging relations with their customers- which in this case would be the WTA and fans.


Green Lady Says:

But i dont agree with what Moore said, far from it, very sexist, and derogatory, and im not a feminist, as women can be just as sexist at times ….


Margot Says:

The dinosaurs on here should read this, and I have alas to include you too CDP it seems:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/35863208
Written by a man incidentally, rather than a poor unfortunate “portly/obese” left wing feminist of the Stalinist persuasion.
Should therefore be given more kudos on here, I suppose.


Ben Pronin Says:

Margot, perhaps we should show sympathy to all the men on this site who’ve obviously been demonized and marginalized. It’s a tough world out there for a man, unfortunately.


BBB Says:

Calm down please, I love the contrast between your handle and your post… Physician, heal thyself….


Travis Bickle Says:

I really think women Chelsea footballers should get the same salaries like their men colleagues (Terry, Oscar, Costa, Ivanovic…)

Also the best women NBA players (I cannot recollect their names at this time) should get the same $$$ like Stephen Curry, Tim Duncan et al…

Than and only then we would have true equality.

Don’t tell me people don’t watch women’s football or women’s basketball as much as they watch men’s sport, because that is irrelevant. They play the same amount of time – equal amount of work means equal pay, regardless of what is in between your legs!!!

Once I wrote a nnovel of 300 pages and asked publisher to paid more than J.K. Rowling for her Harry Potter third book! And I spent more time writing my book than she did since it was my first novel… They refuse to pay me the same for EQUAL work – they said some BS like more folks read HER book than MY book!?! But I spent at least (likely more) time writing my book – that was equal work (we are both novelists) and DEFINITELY unequal pay – she got several millions, I wasn’t paid even to recover printing fee!!!

And you tell me equality exists…


Van Persie Says:

Dinasaurs disapeared long time ago…..perhaps men should do the same ;)


Markus Says:

Thunbs up to Travis Bickle! It’s political correctness vs. common sense. Unfortunately, common sense has been abandoned in the USA because it is diametrically opposed to political correctness. You know it is PC when you feel it and want to say it but you cannot say it out loud because the same people who agree with you will not back you up and will be the first to condemn you. Everybody has to ride that PC train. The first amendment is dead.


J-Kath Says:

Travis Bickle

I feel for U. No kidding – Me too. Sold ss’s/articles/1radio play but none of my long, hard work…sigh, sigh

There is a comp. right now : 5,000 words + synopsis by 16th April…if you are interested can give you details??? (I’m T-X folk won’t mind???)


J-Kath Says:

Missed out “sure” re. Tx folk.


Ben Pronin Says:

Wow what a bunch of drama queens.

TB, your analogy makes no sense.

Markus, really? The first amendment is dead? And yet a bunch of you are running wild spewing utter garbage. But no, let’s focus on the PC nonsense because it’s a lot easier to yell WEEWOOWEEWOO than it is to sit down and dissect the real issues.

Smh, pathetic.


Okiegal Says:

@VP 4:29 Tee hee hee…..love it!! It be like if they can send one man to the moon, why can’t they send them all??? :)


Tennisfan Says:

@Travis
What a ridiculous false equivalency! The WTA is not saying that a challenger-level player should earn the same as a multiple-slam winner, which you allude to with your JK Rowling analogy- but that prize money should be equal! So that regardless of whether your last name is Raonic, Djokovic or Sharapova, if you’re good enough to win the tournament you’ll be rewarded with exactly the same prize money. It’s still a meritocracy!


Travis Bickle Says:

Ben Pronin,

You tell me my analogy doesn’t make sense?

First, it’s not an analogy – it is my real-life experience (something you sorely lack)

Second, don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house Ben. 90% of what you say on this site is nonsense, yet we all (mostly) tolerate you and don’t judge you.

So you telling me that my analogy makes no sense is kind of recognition and confirmation that it is actually good stuff – as some folks here already recognized (again something that never happens to you :-)


Wog Boy Says:

Obviously none or very few of you lived and earned for living in communist countries where everybody was paid the same for eight hours work regardless of quolity of work, couldn’t be sacked (unless insulted communist party and their liders), how I wish you lived in that system just for one year. If you didn’t noticed that system collapsed.

Equal pay for equal work BS (we are not talking about teachers, nurses, doctors but sport) let’s separate atp and wta tournamens and let see how many fans they will attract, sponsors and how much money they will generate and thrn we can talk talk, why anybody belive it will be different than football, basketball or any other sport? We all know hiw much money women generate there and how many fans are coming to watch them.


Ben Pronin Says:

So in real life you, a no name, demanded the same amount of money as JK Rowling, a renowned author, for her third book?

You cannot be serious!

It was a pathetic analogy.


Travis Bickle Says:

Tennisfan,

Equal pay for equal work!

Best soccer female player gets what Lio Mesi gets.
Best female basketball player gets what Steph Curry gets.
They play (and train hard) the same amount of time.

Drawing the line at challenger or some other level is against pure equality philosophy!
Again: equal pay for equal effort and work, regardless of entertainment value or paid audience…

That’s why I deserve the same as that Rowling chick!


jane Says:

meanwhile, the world is rife with extremist violence and we’re worried about the firing of one CEO? meh…

also i suspect no one studies logic anymore: ad hominem attacks, non sequiturs, false analogies, and hasty generalizations abound!


Ben Pronin Says:

Lots of uneducated people on this forum…

I think people forgot that tennis tournaments award prize money based on results, not revenue generated.

Should Murray have earned more prize money for his third round exit than Borna Coric for exiting the same round? I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to prove Murray generates more revenue for the tournament.


calmdownplease Says:

Ben Pronin is a f**king drag q**en!
never mind a ‘drama queen’
Spare me your estrogen infused mangina BS ‘dude’
How much you earn should be related to how much VALUE you bring in.
Stop trying to pretend gravity doesnt exist you stupid c**ts
Gender shouldn’t even come into it!
Of course that was what the feminists said they believed in all along
Except when it didn’t suit them!
hahahaha!


Ben Pronin Says:

So, CDP, you believe Murray should have earned more for his third round exit than Coric did.

Alright, well, pack it up boys. Problem solved.


Markus Says:

Yes, the first amendment is dead, OK, Ben Pronin, not exactly dead yet but will soon be if proponents of political correctness continues to choke it. The average American is getting sick of political correctness and their boohoo cry for equality in everything regardless of the more important and relevant factors such as merit. That’s why Donald Trump has become very popular and may end up as president of the USA. The average American, which is the majority, sees him as a defiant man brave enough to not cower to political correctness that eschews common sense.


calmdownplease Says:

Yes Jane
‘extremist violence’
FROM ISLAMISTS!
You might be the first feminists EVER to complain about it.
They are usually supporting multiculturalism
Of course you didn’t mention the dreaded ‘I’ word
You know you would be one of the first that they would stone to death if they had their way.
Unless you got your ass into the kitchen and had yourself some FGM


calmdownplease Says:

@BP
How difficult is this to understand?
Coric, Muzz, Novak or number 204 from uzbekistan
It’s a business and the tour requires and rewards accordingly.
If it was in the 80′s we wouldnt be having this conversation
We’d all be watching Martina Seles Graf etc
and NOT demanding special compensation for the men.


Ben Pronin Says:

CDP, it’s not difficult at all although your deflection points in the other direction.

Players are awarded prize money for their result. That one player generates more revenue than the other has no effect on how he’s paid each round. So why does gender suddenly matter here unless you’re a bigoted, sexist, backwards thinking misogynist?

Markus, the average American is an idiot. Trump’s popularity more than proves that.


Wog Boy Says:

“I think people forgot that tennis tournaments award prize money based on results, not revenue generated.”

Some of us may not be as educated but not as stupid either.
They first have generate interest and possible revenue in order to give prize money, if there is not first two there is no last one either.
It is very easy to find data about wta tournamets that are played separately from atp ones and to compare audience, revenue and prize money, I think we all know the results, same as in the other sports where man and women are playing, and that’s not to do with sexism, there is roughly equal number of male and females on Earth why don’t females go and watch those wta events (because we are sexist and don’t watch them) but even females rather prefer to watch atp tournaments.


calmdownplease Says:

Deflection?
You’re the one trying to over-complicate it more than it needs to be.
(Which in itself is a deflection).
I’m very okay with the women making more money if they earn it overall.
But they are not in this instance.
They are hanging onto the coattails of the men’s game.
Which is by it’s design a different beast.
And persoanlly i think it is to the detriment of women’s game.
Anyway, I’m not advocating that women should now be paid less, just as Novak indicated, that men (right now but probably for a long time) should be paid MORE.
I don’t care if you think I am a misogynist or any other attempt that you have to silence me and common sense.
I’ve been called a lot worse and frankly I couldn’t care LESS.


calmdownplease Says:

@Wogboy

If Ben Pronin had made it out of the local community college gender studies course,
I would be very surprised indeed!


Wog Boy Says:

“Markus, the average American is an idiot. Trump’s popularity more than proves that.”
They are even bigger idiots if they choose war criminal Hillary Clinton, and they will, really nice choice of candidates for the President of the most powerful nation on earth, I don’t remember ever seeing this kind of presidential candidates in the country that I dreamed of as a kid, thanks God I am not kid anymore.


Vami Says:

1. So, I was of course smiling at TB’s posts but when I came across “That’s why I deserve the same as that Rowling chick!” I was literally laughing out loud.
What’s funny, If Travis wrote a book I’d read it (contrary to that Rowling chick’s books).

2. Oh Ben poor Ben. Are you pretending not to get it or you really don’t get it?

3. And WTA and ATP should separate their events. Let everybody sell their own entertainment. That’s equality.


Travis Bickle Says:

Ben Pronin really does not add any value to this site.
He used to bring some entertainment value by his opinions being unintentionally funny, but now there is nothing but endless stream of cliches…

Tennis X sacked him as a writer, so he is not allowed to write any more. If only he should sack himself as a poster and spare us all of his drivel on a daily basis…
That said, I have nothing against Pronin posting here every 5 minutes – I truly support freedom of expression and opinion – I an just painfully bored by his posts :-(

At least Giles is honest, speak his mind and is very entertaining in his anguish over Novak! success


Wog Boy Says:

Vami,

Agree, I, may self, never read any of Rowling’s books (saw only first movie when the kids dragged me to to cinema, same as Lord of the rings, I’ll rather watch “Ice Age” anytime anywhere) but I would be the first to by TB’s one, the man has a style.


calmdownplease Says:

Isn’t it about time that you REAL Novak fans saw this Ben Pronin character for what he actually is?
A Fed fan looking for his next high.
God damn, it should be obvious NOW.


J-Kath Says:

Maybe a good thing we don’t have audio for TX at the moment…???!!!!


Wog Boy Says:

Actually JK, I would like to hear voices of certain posters, are they are squeaky, deep, damaged by cigarettes and whiskey…


Wog Boy Says:

My post at 6:21pm should say “to buy” not “to by”


Tennisfan Says:

It’s an absolute fantasy to believe that the American electorate which gave Obama two terms is going to let Trump near the Oval Office. Trump vs Clinton will be a whitewash and the GOP know it. Why do you think they’re desperately trying to bring him down? Anyway, there’s clearly no point engaging with some of the commentators on this site because they’ve made it obvious they’re not open to reason.


skeezer Says:

Damn Harry Potter books were written by a man!
Robert Galbraith. 😬


SG1 Says:

I believe that Moore’s sexist comments and the payment equality (…or inequality) are somewhat mutually exclusive. I don’t think the words of one man can undo what Billie Jean King and many others have worked for over the past 40 years.

I think the whole issue of pay in tennis is no different than it is in any other fan-driven industry. The amount someone worth is based on free market forces and the revenue that can be generated from their work and their presence. I think the key words are “free market”. No one is forcing people to decide which tennis matches (ATP vs WTA) they are going to pay for. The public makes this decision for themselves and for the moment, the ATP tour draws better and generates more revenue. So, should the men be paid more? Well, based on free market principles, the answer is yes. But is this a practical approach? No, it’s not.

Both the women and the men are doing equal pay for equal work (outside the majors) and this premise is something that for too long, has not been recognized. The women do the training, they travel across the world (leaving their families behind) and endure all the pressures that the men do. Not paying them the same is tantamount to accepting a double standard that for too long, has kept women in the dark in many parts of this world and in a lot of parts you’d expect to know better.


Travis Bickle Says:

@cdp

Of course!
I saw that ages ago. Pronin is a Fed fanatic. I even posted a link to one of his article from 3-4 years ago when he was allowed to write for Tennis X. That article is such a piece of Federer idolatry that is vomit-inducing.
He is huge Federina, and as all unoriginal bandwagon-jumpers do, once he saw Federer is becoming Novak’s punching bag, he is trying to show now that he is Novak’s fan.

Pathetic…


Travis Bickle Says:

@SG1

“The women do the training, they travel across the world (leaving their families behind) and endure all the pressures that the men do. Not paying them the same is tantamount to accepting a double standard that for too long, has kept women in the dark in many parts of this world and in a lot of parts you’d expect to know better.”

What about pro-soccer and pro-basketball then?
They get something like 1% of what their male counterparts get?
Should we fire commissioners of those leagues for sexism?
I guess that is the only way to avoid “dark ages”.


Wog Boy Says:

“Damn Harry Potter books were written by a man!
Robert Galbraith. 😬”

Good, that just shows how little I cared for either of them, but they suit your intellect, so keep reading them until you are ready for something more serious 🐒


calmdownplease Says:

@TB
That’s a relief, I thought we were in the twilight zone for a while there.

‘It’s an absolute fantasy to believe that the American electorate which gave Obama two terms is going to let Trump near the Oval Office’

Having a black or mixed race President generated a similar impression to most of us.
But it still happened
I’ve yet to see any ineresting policy anouncements from Trump however, other than he will do it better than before.
Yeah, alright then…


calmdownplease Says:

‘announcements’ and ‘interesting’

😡


Wog Boy Says:

““The women do the training, they travel across the world (leaving their families behind) and endure all the pressures that the men do.”

But fo they produce same quolity of work and generate same revenue? Let’s they industry I am, if you have two coach captains (coach drivers who are tour guides at the same time, they do commentary) they do same work, they come in the yard on time, clean and tidy, never late, clean and wash coaches after work, they both have nice atitude, but, the big but is that I have feedback from the agencies that supplies work they would prefer one of them more than the other. That’s mean that one of them does better job and generates mor mone for the business. I can’t sack the other one, he is still doing the best to his abilities, I can’t pay him less since they are all on same hourly rate, but I can give the other one better jobs (groups with more tipping), more hours in order to keep him not to elsewhere. You have to give incentives to employees so they know you appreciate their good work in order to maintain quolity and keep customers happy, it is cut throat industry, like probably any other today.


Wog Boy Says:

^^ to many mistakes but you get what I am saying?


mat4 Says:

@jane:

A few trivia. First, about “witch-hunt”.

First, it wasn’t a medieval phenomenon, but a matter of the Renaissance. They weren’t only women, but men too, although a majority were women. The real numbers were about 30 and 50 thousands which is less than we usually believe today, but it’s a lot, especially when we know their terrible fate.

Then, they weren’t condemned by the Inquisition most of the time (with one notable exception — I mean one Great Inquisitor), especially since it happened more in protestant countries. The ecclesiastic authorities were, most of the time, against witch-hunt.

Finally, until the rediscovery of the Roman law, women were considered the equal of men in the middle-ages, and their status was very high. In France, it was Napoleon, if I remember well, that changed the status of women before the law, and partially restored the Roman pater familias.

Michelet’s and Margaret Murray’s stories were simply invented, and very far from the truth.


J-Kath Says:

Wogboy

Then I shan’t speak for a while – until I get back to normal if I ever do…video might be better… everybody to scan and post a picture??? That might be equally charming?….


Vami Says:

@7.04
Thanks Mat4. It’s so easy on certain subjects to develop a tunnel vision.


mat4 Says:

@Vami:

Norman Cohn has debunked the subject, and he did a tremendous work, relying on and rechecking primary sources. He destroyed the work of Lamothe-Langon about the history of Inquisition — the reference work for almost two centuries on the subject.


J-Kath Says:

“campaign to pardon the last witch jailed as a threat to Britain at war”.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/13/secondworldwar.world


calmdownplease Says:

So now Andy refers to Serena’s US Open final as evidence, which exceptionally, sold out more quickly than the men’s final as an example of, well what exactly?
That was not the norm?

No surprises there from him but so f**king what?

Men do NOT play women in tennis so there is no reason that their revenues should be synchronised together anyway.
And again, there are very few men (I believe) that would argue against it if women were paid more due to the any increased commercial popularity.
Because that’s economics and reality.
But that is not what we are seeing with women & manginas now.
It’s really not disrespectful to say women should be paid differently from men if they bring less MONEY in generally.
OR VICE VERSA.
Why is this so difficult for seemingly rational people to accept?


mat4 Says:

@J.-K.

Interesting article.


mat4 Says:

Thanks, JK.


mat4 Says:

I remembered the name finally: the only crazy inquisitor was Konrad von Marburg. All his victims were rehabilitated.

Let’s notice that he fought heretics, and witch-hunt was just an expedient, an “extra” to the main charge of heresy.


J-Kath Says:

U R Welcome. Witches are something my hubbie and I discussed at length, including UFO’s about which he knew too much.


mat4 Says:

@JK:

I have a comment waiting for moderation about the same topic: the name of the inquisitor I mentioned en passant in my first post.


J-Kath Says:

Sorri – I didn’t mean the two were connected – simply fascinating subjects.


mat4 Says:

J-Kath:

I was interested in both topics. Don’t worry. Unfortunately, I can’t work and read as much as I could before. I am very familiar with Wes Penre’s work, among others.


Vami Says:

Witchcraft is well and alive. When the news broke about Moore’s comments every paper in the western world showed almost exclusively his recent picture with Novak (and another guy). Guilty by association?


mat4 Says:

@Vami:

When one reads Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie’s “Montaillou”, it’s fascinating how much these early middle-ages’ villagers are modern, and the fact that we didn’t change much since then is obvious. No, inquisition — not Inquisition! — and witch-hunt are not dead.


J-Kath Says:

23.48 my time -am off.


Wog Boy Says:

JK,

Have a tight sleep and take more honey every morning, that’ll fix your voice cords, but only natural honey.


SG1 Says:

Travis Bickle Says:

What about pro-soccer and pro-basketball then?
They get something like 1% of what their male counterparts get?
Should we fire commissioners of those leagues for sexism?
I guess that is the only way to avoid “dark ages”.

——————

These are just the unfortunate economic realities of these sports because they don’t generate anywhere near the revenue that women’s tennis does. While the ATP tour generates larger revenue than the WTA does, we’re not talking about orders magnitude difference. The women’s game generates piles of money. I’ve been to the Rogers Cup many times to see the women play and it’s always packed because the product is top notch. I don’t know if WNBA games or women’s professional hockey games pack the house but I suspect not. I just think that the athletes in these sports don’t seem to connect as well with the public as they do in tennis. It’s not the commissioners fault. It’s a marketing problem.


jane Says:

@mat4 – “women were considered the equal of men in the middle-ages”

thanks for your thoughts. have you read the anti-feminist writers from the church? i can post some quotes later. women were not considered equal in the medieval period based on what i’ve read.

——————————————
on a general note, why do you people resort to personal attacks? use reason if you want to debate something. reading through this thread is a bit like a playground. at least ben tried to reason, as did some others.

and HELLO? where’s the moderator around here? or is that too “fascist”? lol.

has tennis-x even more fully lived up to its dyfunctional moniker?

————————–

cdp – there is plenty of extremism to go around. it doesn’t belong to one group only. some are more covert.

my point is that in the grand scheme of things, the firing of this CEO has been hyped to ridiculous proportions, as have novak’s comments.

it’s like “12 angry men” or something. sheesh.


jane Says:

wog boy, i agree with you about the 2 likely USA presidential candidates. what a choice! : /


courbon Says:

Travis, send me your novel and I’ll give you couple of bucks..
Mat 4-I applaud you-how did you get from equal pay in tennis, to which craft, only God knows..

Thanks God Miami is starting, so we can discuss the matches and forget about gender money discussion…


chrisford1 Says:

SG1 – ….This was a business decision made by a board of directors. He said things that the B.O.D. felt would devalue the brand. They asked him to step down and gave him a golden parachute. He’s not being thrown to the wolves without another means of surviving.

Joseph McCarty never apologized for the climate of paranoia and insanity that he cultivated. Moore screwed up.

===============
In the same way Raymond Moore did, he Hollywood writers screwed up, openly pledging at parties, synagogue functions – loyalty to Comrade Stalin and the correctness of the Moscow centered revolution.
McCarthy never fired any of them. He was just part of the “Outrage Brigade” of the time. Leaders of the American public that was offended that influential people in the mass media were in bed with the people that killed tens of millions, got the A Bomb, we “lost” China to, took over E Europe and were trying to take over 20 other countries in subversion and bloody revolution.

In that context, the mostly Jewish studio heads and franchised distributors made a business decision. Blackballing. Protect their wealth. Their brand. Just like the IW Board and Ellison did. Of course the Hollywood bosses also ensured the blackballed, and not all were Jews, got money and work under the table so they wouldn’t name other names – the actors, directors, and yes, studio bossed that were also prominent at local CP meetings. Or were at those other functions where communists loud and proud extolled the Marxist Way. Throw some little fish out to protect the big fish or lovers that could bring major stars or moguls down if they were snared by the Shocked! Outraged! ACWs (Anti-communist warriors)

McCarthy never apologized because he was basically right on most of it. The evidence was there today with the vindication of Chalmers and the V. The film industry did have people come out in testimony and affirm the communists were embedded. Many in the industry made deals to point fingers to keep their jobs, and as instructed by the bosses to protect more valuable commodities.

The authoritarian feminists have never apologized when their targets are clearly found to be innocent. Ever. It goes against ideology on the Fascist Left to admit error when you have the people targeted still the ones expected, even compelled to apologize. The feminists, like McCarthy, believe they are the ones who are politically correct. Correct people never apologize, even when their targeted victims (Duke Lacrosse, professors denied tenure, more qualified men passed over – are innocent)


Wog Boy Says:

thanks jane, and if this makes you feel good your Premier looks hot, according to my girls, including my wife, and quite a few other Aussie ladies I know, I don’t know if he is as good as the lider of your country.


SG1 Says:

The other reality is that sports fandom (…fanaticism) is still more of a man thing than a woman thing. I’d say, just from my own experience, that most men are interested in sports. I do know some that aren’t but it seems rare. By the same token, I know many women (..including my ex BTW) that really don’t care about sports. Yes, they will go jogging or hit the gym or even play the occasional round of golf or tennis. But, I don’t know too many women (…if any LOL) that will sit down and watch 4 hours of Masters coverage and actually enjoy it.

My point is pretty simple. If the same number of women and men were sports fanatics, it’s likely that many of the women’s sports the presently face pay inequities, actually wouldn’t because these women would frequent women’s sporting events. Just my personal theory…which I hope isn’t offensive. It’s certainly not meant to be.


Wog Boy Says:

“Mat 4-I applaud you-how did you get from equal pay in tennis, to which craft, only God knows..”

Only Frenchies can do that..you included..


jane Says:

ha ha wog boy. the jury is still out on how good of a leader he is. :)

i can see what you mean sg-1, although i know a lot of women who are interested in tennis in particular, and lots who love hockey, too, especially north americans perhaps. it seems like a lot of the women i know like 1 or 2 sports that they follow but not too many follow more than a couple sports closely, just in my experience.

i wonder if that’s a cultural thing though, given how people are raised… ? but that’s a discussion for elsewhere.

it many indeed be reflective of attendance issues at the stadiums.

i prefer men’s tennis overall because i dont have a favourite right now on the women’s tour. i used to LOVE watching graf, and really started watching tennis because of the female players in the 70s-80s. i just haven’t taken to a player in a long time. i thought petra might be the one who i’d follow but she is so mercurial, in part because of the mono slowing her progress, alas.

i like a lot of the wta players, but i just dont have a “Fave” and thus am not as invested. but they play some beautiful matches contrary to what some people say.


MMT Says:

Meanwhile the core issue recedes into the night. Anybody know, or care to know, what formed the basis of his claim that the men were carrying the women?


jane Says:

^ yes.


mat4 Says:

@jane:

The equality of women until 1500 was rather a matter of established tradition. Don’t forget that more than 80% of the population were rural, and not affected deeply by theological thought — although I agree with you about the ecclesiastical writings [I have the impression that I didn't write what I wanted].

I mentioned “Montaillou” above; it is a good testimony of the role of women in those times.


SG1 Says:

CF1,

I’m not much for conspiracy theories. Hollywood was an easy target for McCarthy. Probably because he let some of his own bigotries cloud his judgment. Not so different than Moore’s sexist inclinations clouding his. McCarthy committed the scientific cardinal sin of fitting his personal theory to a set of facts rather than letting the facts speak for themselves. If you’re looking for “communists”, Hollywood is the natural place to start as artists do tend to be more liberal in their views. However, being liberal doesn’t make you a communist. Were there communists in Hollywood at that time…yes. Are there communists in the US today? Yes. Do they pose a threat to society? Not anymore than anyone else with strong opinions. You can’t have a free country without freedom of thought.


Vami Says:

@MMT
How about a simple fact that the tournaments that bring most of the profit are shared. The prizes are the same but prices of the tickets are not, nor is the advertising space during the matches.
This came from a guy who’s job was to bring in revenue and was obviously pissed off because he felt what he was paying to one of the sides was undeserved. The way how he expressed himself was idiotic, nobody disputes that, but if you look at “the core” of his statement think again who’s right and who’s not. He knows much more about how is money generated in tennis than any of us.


SG1 Says:

Jane,

I agree. At the moment, there just isn’t that compelling rivalry in the women’s game. When Evert and Navartilova were in their prime, I pretty much never missed any of their grand slam match ups. Same with Graf and Navratilova and Graf and Seles. Great players…great matches that fired up the imagination. Women’s tennis is missing that right now.

Right now, there are three all time greats all competing at the top of the men’s game. It’s a golden age for the sport. This casts a big shadow over everything else. But tennis is cyclic. Sooner or later, the women will have their time in the sun.


Wog Boy Says:

^^ good one, he obviously knew what was his talking about but voiced it very wrong way.


Wog Boy Says:

^^ that was for Vami.


MMT Says:

@Vami (or anyone else for that matter) This is not a rhetorical question, but I didn’t follow you.

What did he even mean by men carrying the women? More ticket sales? More TV money?


chrisford1 Says:

Jane – “cf1, think of the very word “witchhunt” – from whence does it come? genocide of women who were thought to be witches? i think you’re mixing up two very different things: blacklisting was about racism and ideology – antisemitism and anticommunism in the context of the cold war.”

1. Witch hunts involved 10-20,000 max. Some believe it was under 7000. Men and women. Not targeted by age, gender, or ethnicity save pagan gypsies believed to be using witch craft in their rigged games to bilk the suckers in the next village their caravan pulled into.
2. Jews had a big issue – inside their ranks, deep concern they had gone so far Leftist that most of the A-bomb spies, Stalinism apologists in the media, and subversives at work in Hollywood came from their ranks. The anti-Semitism, the purging of communist aligned Jews from businesses was done by Jewish business owners, as a business decision. As the call to abandon captured A-bomb spies to the criminal justice system. Not anti-semitism.
3. Ideology plays a big part in university and government hiring these days. The purges of incorrect thinkers in public by the “outrage brigades” and SJWs. It is not confined to a short historical period 60 years ago. It’s going on today.

———————–
SG1 – ” You can’t have a free country without freedom of thought.”
And my point is with pervasive PC and activists perpetually outraged still able to get people they brand as “incorrect thinkers” sacked, you no longer have freedom of thought, or a free country. You have a society where he majority of the population lives in fear of their livelihood being destroyed if one wrong thing is said on or off the job. Lenin said the Red Terror was best not spread to put all the proletariat and bourgeoisie in fear of fighting back by mass slaughters at first but by the selective targeting of populations everywhere to dread the knock on the door after dark, by the hauling of accused to a tribunal of Soviet workers to beg forgiveness, apologize, and to grant mercy in a small number of cases. That was how best to consolidate the Revolution. Cow the population into newcorrect behaviors. The necessary large purges could follow.


Vami Says:

@MMT
I don’t know how to explain that to you properly, English is not my first language, but I’ll try. Men carrying the women means that men tennis players have to carry on their back female tennis players during practice. The ranks play the role, e.g. #10 guy has to carry around #10 gal etc.


SG1 Says:

CF1…just my opinion but our discussion doesn’t belong here. This is a place to talk about tennis. Moore is fair game. Beyond that, I’ve said what I have to say.


jane Says:

cf1, the original witch hunts targeting women first. jeez. that’s a fact. maybe go read malleus maleficarum for some context.

and the hollywood blacklist was not done by jewish business men as a “business decision.” Are you saying Nixon and McCarthy were jewish business men?

finally, a lot of the people who were identified (or identified themselves) as communist were looking for alternatives to starving under capitalism during the depression. for example, charlie chaplin saw things differently when he left the states and did some traveling. oh, and he wasn’t jewish either. nor were ronald reagan or elia kazan – people who “named names.”


jane Says:

^ and i agree with sg-1.

let’s get back to TENNIS. this digression has been given A LOT of leeway by the moderators around here.

time to refocus.


chrisford1 Says:

SG1 – Moore is “fair game” in the same sense that the bourgeoisie were “fair game”.

Jane – “meanwhile, the world is rife with extremist violence and we’re worried about the firing of one CEO? meh…”

The Islamists are very similar to the Fascist Left. That is why they generally get along so well together. Both are intolerant and perpetually offended, angry, outraged. Both believe in elimination of those who disagree with them. One group targets their enemy’s livelihood, the other tagets lives.


chrisford1 Says:

Jane – “and the hollywood blacklist was not done by jewish business men as a “business decision.” Are you saying Nixon and McCarthy were jewish business men?”

Read the history sometime. It will illuminate you.
Those writers were not called into Nixon’s office fired, and told they could not work ‘in the clear’ again
They were called into Hollywood mogul’s offices.

———————–
Speaking of history, read up on the early ATP under Ashe and Laver, plus guys like Moore. Once the men players had consolidated a Tour, made being a pro OK with the organizers after a 7 year lockout, the Sainted Billie Jean showed up with 6 of her rather mannish friend tennis amateurs. Demanding that the men add the full compliment of women, led by the feminists, into the Tour. And they would be ‘chauvinist pigs’ if they did not give the women equal pay.
Ashe and the other ATP union leaders told Saint Billie Jean, Casals, and the others to pound sand. She wold not force her way into a male sports athlete union. Never happened in other sports like soccer unions, wouldn’t happen in tennis. So the outraged women went and formed a Tour sponsored by a cigarette company. Basically, after that got their “equal pay for trying their best to be as good as the men’s Tour” not through business arguments, but political pressure. Even pulling the race card, as Venus did at Wimbledon after the WTA business argument made to the All England Club failed on facts found of actual revenue brought in by the 2 separate businesses – ATP vs WTA.


MMT Says:

There’s a 25 year old Harvard Business Case about the rivalry between BSB and Sky Broadcasting in the 90′s. I can’t recall which was the larger entity, but eventually they agreed to a 50/50 merger, where the smaller competitor wound up making out like a bandit, because the larger competitor calculated that half of the entire market was worth more than all of their current market share, even though current market share was much bigger than their competitor’s. In the end, everyone made more money, so they made the deal to the significantly greater benefit of the weaker competitor.

I suspect something along those lines is happening with the joint ATP and WTA events – otherwise why would the ATP do it? So while the argument is framed by many as an issue of fairness, I think that’s hogwash – it’s strictly economic where the men are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Even though I agree that the men are the much bigger draw and the women need the joint events more than the men do, if both tours benefit economically and they agree to joint events, they must accept an equal share of the prize money.


Wog Boy Says:

Very easy ti find out the truth (though I am pretty sure we all know it just pretend we don’t), next year AO organizers can schedule WTA one day and ATP matches next until the very end when they can play women final Saturday and men Sunday.
Do you really believe they are ready to shoot themselves in the foot? They would lose sponsors in an blink of an eye.


Margot Says:

Let’s “play the ball not the person” shall we?
I wish.
Let’s personally insult Ben because he has a difference of opinion from the “dinosaurs” on here?
Just losing the arguement when you do.


Van Persie Says:

Okie,

Your post from 5:05 made me smile :)

I hope you do know, that dinosaurs did not completely disapear.
According to science the T-Rex “evolved” to chickens ;)


calmdownplease Says:

Well Margot

If Ben doesnt want any Ad Hominems thrown his way he might want to consider NOT throwing them around himself
It seems that if you don’t adhere to some marxist feminist narrative there is something wrong with you, that you are not too bright or ‘sophisticated’
So somebody that probably works at McDonalds or something & lives with his parents is telling me that I am an unsophisticated dinosaur?
Purleeze!
I would say that we did NOT lose this argument either
hehehe


Margot Says:

Hmm CDP aren’t you being a wee bit snobby about jobs? Nothing wrong per se with working in MacDonalds is there.
And while I eouldn’t dream of calling you a dinosaur, I think some of the language you come up with is pretty pre-historic.
@mat4
Instead of challening jane on her figures for the killing of witches, very contentious what you said TBH and history is written by the winners isn’t it? Anyway, how about pointing out in your scholarly way how very similar chrisford’s quaint idea, about “muzzling” 21st century women in order to keep them quiet, is to that delightful medieval practise of using a scold’s bridal to silence and punish women.
And yes, I’m bloody outraged that such mysogyny wasn’t immediately challenged by every decent man on this site.


Van Persie Says:

CDP,

perhaps I will sound like a bootlicker now, but, I love your style.

P.S. All my colleagues from my office love you now :)


calmdownplease Says:

Not at all Margot dear!
Macdonalds is a fine destination, with hardworking kids,
I’ve been!
The ‘mcmuffin’ actually hit the spot, although I am not too sure of the long term health implications of that one…..
But if you are pushing 40, and remember BP stated that he has been posting here since the 90’s, it might be time to reassess one’s gameplan!
Perhaps he’s a manager there?
Or he could return to college where he will fit right in with the North Korean style atmosphere of PC culture with it’s no platforming & microaggressions and safe spaces etc.
And perhaps he could major in feminist dance theory or something this time?
Give himself a boost!!!

Van Persie, Just.stop.it 🤗


calmdownplease Says:

‘And yes, I’m bloody outraged that such mysogyny wasn’t immediately challenged by every decent man on this site’

Why ask for the ‘decent men’ to do it for you, Margot?
Challenge him yourself!
Anyway I missed that one but tbh it sounds quite funny and was probably meant to be taken in that manner…..


Van Persie Says:

I know CDP. I was pathetically enthusiastic, but WTF. Nobody knows who I am

Am off now, was a pleasure to read all that stuff today


Margot Says:

Bloody hell CDP! Of course I challenged him and so did jane and green lady.
But, men and women are in it s**t together aren’t they, and should show solidarity with each other over these important issues. I’ve got to feel that there are at least some men out there who can empathise with women.
And no it’s not a “joke” at all. We are talking about the “silencing” of women here, literally and metaphorically. We all know about jokes too don’t we?
Have you seen what he just wrote under Andy thread? Jeez I feel I’ve stepped back into England circa 1950, and that’s not a good thing at all. Sexism, racism, homophobia all perfectly acceptable and celebrated then of course.
Ben SG1, Jack Lewis, I salute you. Keep on supporting women please.
Lol probably the last thing they want/need…..a salute from a “Marxist/feminist of the extreme left Stalinist persuasion”…..;)


mat4 Says:

@Margot:

I wrote about the topic of earnings in tennis on another thread and made my opinion clear and unambiguous, while listing a few pro & contra Novak’s opinion.

On the other side, I DON’T CARE WHAT MOORE SAID, and I DON’T READ EVERY CF1 POST, especially when it’s long.

I exchanged a few posts here en passant with jane and J-Kath, I read WB’s posts and, in the last few months, yours, even when I am tired as I was last evening.

I don’t see what was contentious in my posts about witch-hunt, especially since I wasn’t aware of the context of jane’s posts.

I quoted Malleus maleficarum in one of my short stories and I know this work, which has been written after the little Renaissance, at the eve of the cinquecento, when the position of women did indeed start to change under the influence of the rediscovered Roman lex.

I am against any feminism, just like I am against any machismo. I am against both positive and negative discriminations. I think that men and women are different, but equal.

And finally, I don’t want to argue further with you, especially since I believe it’s all a misunderstanding.

Top story: Djokovic Reaches SFs Stage At ATP Finals, Cilic Beats Isner; Federer-Anderson Rematch