Djokovic Back Spasms Don’t Stop Berdych Beatdown in Miami
by Staff | March 30th, 2016, 11:35 pm
  • 284 Comments

World No. 1 Novak Djokovic fought through treatment from the trainer for back spasms during a 6-3, 6-3 win over Tomas Berdych in the late match on Wednesday night at the Miami Open.


The Serb moved into the semifinals and improved his win-loss record to a sterling 26-1 on the year. He has won the last two Miami Open titles, and another would tie the record of six by Andre Agassi.

Djokovic received treatment from the trainer for lower back spasms in the second set, but said in his on-court interview afterwards that it would not impede his march toward the title. Berdych had only eight unforced errors during the match, with the Serb logging more than four times as many.

“No concerns,” he said of the back. “None at all

“This was overall from the first to the last point the best match I’ve played of the tournament,” Djokovic said. “And it comes at the right stage of the event.”

Djokovic improved to an amazing 20-0 career record versus Berdych on hard courts.

In the semis the world No. 1 will meet diminutive No. 15 seed David Goffin, who came from a set down to beat No. 18 Gilles Simon 3-6, 6-2, 6-1 and advance to his first Miami Open semifinal.

Rain delayed the start of the match, and Simon delayed Goffin’s progression, winning the first set with a wall-like effort that the Belgian seemed unable to break through. But from there on Goffin upped his service percentage and his aggression.

“The first set was tough because it was a good set with a good level,” Goffin said. “Gilles was really solid on his baseline, but I didn’t serve really well in the first set. I didn’t get any free points with my serve, so it was tough. I knew that the level was there and I had to keep going like this, just to stay more focused on some shots to finish the points. Maybe just be more precise, because I knew that I was feeling really good.”

In the second set the 25-year-old Goffin converted all three break points to level the match, and in the third set rolled to a 6-1 victory to set up meeting with Djokovic.

“I have nothing to lose,” Goffin said of playing the Serb. “He won almost everything this year. He’s playing
unbelievable tennis at the moment. But I played a great match against him last year in Cincinnati, and it could be interesting to watch the match.”

Thursday’s quarterfinal action in Miami will see (6) Kei Nishikori vs. (16) Gael Monfils, and (12) Milos Raonic vs. (24) Nick Kyrgios.

THURSDAY MIAMI SCHEDULE
STADIUM start 1:00 pm
WTA – [15] S. Kuznetsova (RUS) vs [19] T. Bacsinszky (SUI)

Not Before 3:00 pm
ATP – [6] K. Nishikori (JPN) vs [16] G. Monfils (FRA)

7:00 pm
ATP – [12] M. Raonic (CAN) vs [24] N. Kyrgios (AUS)

Not Before 9:00 pm
WTA – [13] V. Azarenka (BLR) vs [2] A. Kerber (GER)


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284 Comments for Djokovic Back Spasms Don’t Stop Berdych Beatdown in Miami

Humble Rafa Says:

Coffin will get put in the coffin in the next round.


bojana Says:

“Berdych had only eight unforced errors during the match, with the Serb logging more than four times as much”


Dave Says:

Djokovic had 9 unforced errors and Berdych had 45. Berdych had 5 times as many unforced errors.


chrisford1 Says:

On the dominance since 2011 issue – though some say he wasn’t dominant in 2012 or 2013, the record is quite clear. 4 of those 5 years he was year end number 1, now trails only Fed and Connors who have 5 and Pete has 6.
The year Rafa edged him out at the end – Nadal had ~13000 points. But Djokovic had 12,300. The next closest was Ferrer, at 5800 – some 6,500 points behind Djokovic. All swung on one net touch, maybe Delpo’s epic Wimbledon semi with Djokovic.

World Chamionships RUP and Winner 4/5 – 80%
Slams 2011 AO through 2016 AO. Made Finals 16 of 21 times for 76% of Slams played. Won 10/21 or 48% of the time.
Masters 1000s. Made final 28 of 42 Masters Novak entered. 69%. Won 22 of 42 Masters 2011 to present he played. 52%Masters win rate.

And all those stats are likely to get better.


Wog Boy Says:

Raonic and Kyrgios are going to bring out some heavy artillery, Kimberly if I am you I would bring some helmets for protection..


Okiegal Says:

Some hair gel for Milos and ear plugs for Kimberly’s son….he doesn’t need to hear Nick’s trashy mouth!


Michael Says:

It seems Novak can beat Berdych even without a net in the racquet !!


anki Says:

Novak was solid in today’s match. Don’t see Goffin giving him any trouble. Although playing an in form Nishi or Nick can be a bit tricky.


Green Lady Says:

Michael your predictions are as good as Jamies, it seems your getting your wish, as it looks like Novak will win everything this year ? ….


Michael Says:

Green Lady,

Novak is simply incredible and I have never seen any player in the past or present dominate the circuit as he is doing now with such immaculate ease. There is just no challenger in sight. During his hey days, Roger had Rafa, but Novak has none and he is the undisputed Emperor of the Universe.

Ofcourse, such overwhelming domination is not good for any Sport as certainty is sure to kill spectators interest and moreover, the players in general are feeling frustrated. I wonder how would Berdych be feeling beaten 20-0 ? And he is definitely not such a bad player to be beaten in such a hopeless fashion.

But as Rafa rightly said, Novak deserves it and he has earned what he has achieved. I bow in salute to Novak for his incredible dominance.


J-Kath Says:

RZ & GG

Johanna Konta has jumped 130 ranking points – she is now 21 in the world. Whew!


Gordon Says:

This is not a knock on Djokovic, for he is incredible and easily the best tennis player in the world.

However, years from now, when people compare, how does it look when the number 3 – possibly the number 2 within a month – player in the world is a former great who is 9 years past his prime?

What does that say about the quality of the current field?

And none of the ESPN commentators will admit this; they just fawn over Djokovic as if this is some golden age of tennis when really, it is anything but.

Oh, can Nole win a Golden Slam? He’d better; there is no one fit/talented/equipped enough to play against him. It’s too bad in a way; there will always be the “Yeah, but who did he beat?” question hanging over his legacy.


Margot Says:

Tennisxers, this post is just for Kath so please skip
@Kath
In answer to your “serious” question, if the steel works shuts it will be heartbreaking for the whole area. So many peripheral jobs depend on it. There’s high unemployment in S.Wales anyway. It’s like the closure of the mines all over again. The Welsh valleys were reduced to despair.
Never, never, never forgive Thatcher
Never, never forget.
As Michael Sheen said, the bloody bankers were bailed out why not the steel industry.
On a lighter note…
@OKiegal
Jeepers, creepers, upon my word OK, you have become the queen of tennix emoticons. I don’t have a kindle fire so alas here am I stuck in the 17C with my little old wind up laptop…..;) <- at least one I can do!
And Go Jo Konta!


Wog Boy Says:

Margot,

I know you said it’s not for us, but I read it anyway. If that makes you feel better steel industry is all but dead in Australia too and we had huge steel industry, two cities Newcastle (two hours north of Sydney) and Wollongong (one hour south of Sydney) were steel capitols of Australia. Newcastle was completely shut down 15 years ago and the last furnace in Wollongong will be probably shut down soon, and that will be the end. The irony is that Australia is exporting coal and iron ore to China and China is selling us steel products later.
Due to high cost of labor force in Australia all industry is dying out and moving elsewhere Vietnam, Thailand and other countries in SE Asia. The pride of Australian automobile industry, Holden, is shuting down their car production and moving in SE Asia due to cheap labor. That is story of western world. I am slowly closing down due to competition I can compete with since I don’t have access to cheap labor and they have. My employees cost me roughly $300 a day (wages, workcover, superannuation..) their employees cost them $150 cash in hands and that’s all. Every quote I give for the job they under quote me, the only thing that saves me they can’t touch my market since their employees don’t speak english, but that is matter of time anyway. Since govermant deregulated industry 30 years ago people from two most populated countries keep opening their businesses here and bringing their labor force here. I will disappoint you since you sound like Labour party voter, but they are the once who stuffed this country.

As for Thathcer, I dislike her too, but for the oposite reason, most of those Union leaders that she kicked out of UK ended up in Australia and took over Australian Unions, you couldn’t not get job in bigger companies unless you are Union member, and I despise unions, for the reason and never was the member of any of them.

This is article about steel industry in Australia, it is good article, you’ll recognize Welsh problems:

http://www.afr.com/business/does-australias-steel-industry-have-a-future-20150619-ghs0r7

Sorry TX people I just felt like posting it..


Wog Boy Says:

^^ due to competition I CAN’T compete with…should say


J-Kath Says:

Thanks Margot and Wogboy
Not a laughing matter, but maybe a wee brave grin in the face of adversity:

………………………………………
What we all need to do is to become high tech. computer whizzkids like Okiegal


Margot Says:

@Wog Boy
Thanks for that, relevant and interesting. Only said it was just for Kath because I didn’t want tennisxers going, “What’s she on about now? Off topic etc.”
Multi nationals are the “fourth estate” as C. Wright Mills called them. They are more wealthy than many countries. They shut factories, move production somewhere where labour is cheaper, then whaddyaknow they move again somewhere even cheaper..
And the very worst thing about Thatcher was, instead of investing in the areas where the mines/shipyards etc had closed, she squandered North Sea oil revenue in tax cuts for rich Tories.
@Kath
Nobody’s “grinning” in Port Talbot, I can assure you.


Okiegal Says:

@J-Kath I am enjoying my updated Kindle Fire…As for being a Whiz Kid, I won’t tell you how many days I used it before I discoved my little toys. The kid that rigged it up for me said it was lot better than my old one……need more instructions…..a computer whiz I am not! Margot, I read your post on Thatcher too, because I’m nosey and found it interesting. Especially when you said it was for J-Kath only……I knew then I was gonna read it. Lol All countries have their woes…..guess industry is bad everywhere. Thatcher was on Saturday Night Live all the time……her impersonator was very good. SNL is a hoot……that show is a survivor strictly because of politics and politicians.


gee Says:

Why is the competition more pathetic than Hewitt, Roddick, old Agassi & Safin? At least Tsonga, Berdych, Nishikori & old Wawrinka could beat Nole.

When Nole got his act together, Roddick was crushed at Year End Championship & on grass.
Vs. a ball bashing unintelligent washed up Roddick, Federer escaped 2 wimbledon finals & needed luck with 3 match points against him at 2006 Masters Cup.
Roddick & nalbandian never won the year end championship, but Roddick cashed in on a tv biography in which his family said he was a great athlete.
Roddick made tons of tv ad money for years just because he escaped match point vs. the injured Nalbandian.


Green Lady Says:

Agree with your post Gordon at 4.26am, sorry Novak fans ….


Vami Says:

@Gordon
Not sure where you’re going with “Yeah, but who did he beat?”


Ben Pronin Says:

Djokovic was simply incredible off the ground yesterday. This was never going to be the court where Berdych gets a rare win over Novak. The last few times they played were pretty close but on quicker surfaces and still ended in straight sets. This court is too slow and has too much bounce for Berdych to break through Djokovic not to mention Djokovic is insanely comfortable here to begin with.


Vami Says:

@GL
Check Novak’s H2H vs the two greats (31 GS titles between them) and one “could’ve been great”. According to you and Gordon he never beat anybody of any substance, just a bunch of journeymen.


Green Lady Says:

I never said that Vami, the point is nobodys a realistic challenge now, Michaels right and hes a Novak fan, not his fault, and hes an amazing player, but the competition seems a bit thin on the ground ….

Anyway ill stop there, as theres alot of Novak fans on this forum i get along with very well, and i wouldnt want to offend them ….


Green Lady Says:

^To add it looks like Rafas finished, Rogers 34, Andy hasnt been the same since the surgery, Stan is too inconsistent, Delpo meh forget it ? ^….


Ben Pronin Says:

Who did Federer beat in 04 and 05? Who did Nadal beat in 2010?

Seems like these things kinda go in cycles. Overall, it’s extremely difficult to dominate when you have a rival who is also your equal. I think what Djokovic did in 2011 is maybe one of the craziest things ever. But then the titles and number 1 ranking were shared between 12-14 because Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic all hit strong stretches that overlapped each other at some points. Now Nadal and Federer are struggling and Djokovic is still in peak form. Keep in mind this is a part of the season he’s always done extremely well during and it’s only 1 quarter of the season completed. Things can change very quickly.


anki Says:

Err, Rogie had a free run for three years.


George Says:

For me, the highest level Federer ever played was in 2015 and AO 2016. In my book, Djokovic faced/faces probably (one of) the toughest competition ever. Similarly to Nadal and Murray, he didn’t get any free ride.


gee Says:

Shriver, Carillo, Drysdale, Gilbert, John & Pat McEnroe have been fawning over Federer since 2000.
The endless praise by them & every channel in usa, Canada, Europe, south American & Asian countries made it sound like the ljubicics, Moyas, Nalbandians, elderly Agassis, Hewitts, Safins, Roddicks, Gonzalezes & Baghdatis’s were the greatest brave rivals in history!
Canas beat Fed twice. That meant that hero warrior Fed was “declining” rapidly!
However, Fed said he got revenge on Canas in 2007.
What a relief…
When “lucky” nole won his matches back in 2008-2010, he was supposed to be forgotten because Fed was the “meaning of tennis”, and Fed suffered forever after “mono” struck him!


Green Lady Says:

Personally ive never said this is a weak era, as i dont believe in that theory anyway, aside from 2011, and last year, GS and other titles were shared out, and i enjoy years like 2012, 13, 14, where things were shared out, Novak has still been the best player since 2011, but it wasnt all about outright domination like it was last year, and is at the moment ….


Green Lady Says:

Just to add, when you get years like 2011, 2015, or Federers many dominant years, they are absolutely fine if they happen to be 1 offs, just not all the time, is whats im not in favour of ….


Green Lady Says:

Im not a fan of Leciester City FC, but im really pulling for them to win the EPL, as i think it would make an amazing story to see another team win something, a team thats never done it before, i found it tiresome to see Manchester UTD, Arsenal,Chelsea, and all the usual suspects cleaning up everything ….


George Says:

@Green Lady: What makes Leciester City exciting is that they don’t have money and power as opposed to MU, MC, Arsenal, Chelsea etc. Their victory would be unscripted victory against predetermined, “natural”, order of things.


Green Lady Says:

George very true, nobody can take them seriously, and thats the sole reason im pulling for them, so they and their fans can say up yours, so i really hope the football gods let it happen ….


James Says:

I agree with you Gordon.

For all the people going ga-ga over Djokvic’s level of play – as I mentioned in an earlier post on an earlier thread – there has NEVER been a period like this in the open era when a 28 year old great player (yes, Djokovic IS a great player) has NOT EVEN ONE younger great player to compete with. 3 times in the last 7 slams his final opponent was a past his prime 33/34 year old player.

This has NEVER happened before. If you don’t agree, show me the facts as I showed you earlier.

djokovic is a great player, but he is also incredibly lucky to be where he is right now in the last couple of years.


Margot Says:

Herbert and Mahut beating the Bryans at the mo!
C’mon!


chrisford1 Says:

Much talk about the “lack of quality of the young guns” but I think it is more about the nature of the Near Impervious Obstacle they face.

That is, to win big, they have had to face at least two, possibly 3 all-time greats + Andy to win a tournament. And further cursed with two consistent power hitters always in the Top 10 – Berdych&Tsonga, and the past 8 years of Ferru, the Little Beast being the never quit grinder veteran that even if a young gun beats him-leaves them a bit worn out. And Stan is death to a young gun when he is on his game.

When Djokovic was a “young gun”, he still ended up getting stuck behind the “co-GOATs” as they were called, for 4 years, an ATP record. His breakout, beating the “co-GOATs” in their primes back in 2011, was insane.
Then poor Andy had to get through the 3 to win, and this vastly talented guy may never get a week in as #1 because an insane miracle blossoming never happened like it did for Djoko.

If Andy can’t do it, and Andy is a genius talent at tennis – what fault is it that Kei or others could not land a Holy Slam or Masters or two and displace 4 future Hall of Famers?

It’s not that the young guns “failed” – it is trying to get past the Greats, plus Berdych, Stan, Ferru, and Tsonga.

Put it this way, if teen “Rusty” Leyton Hewitt had come up now, no Slam wins, no #1 for 75 straight weeks because the Top 10 is far more talent loaded than back in 2002-07. He’d be chewed to little bits – not just by the Greats, but all the others in Top 10. I think many “young guns” in the discussions in the last 5 years have been better players than Hewitt


RZ Says:

@Margot – I had thought that PospiSock would be the successors to the Bryans, but it’s beginning to look like it’ll be Mahut/PHH. Nice that Mahut is getting a second act as a successful dubs players.


chrisford1 Says:

James – My 3:04 post was the facts to counter your 1:57 post.
There are great younger players, but now the competition they are stacked up against and must beat in 2-3 successive matches to win an event is higher obstacle than what “young gun” Djokovic faced 2007-2010.
Back then, Djokovic was not thought as great. Just another unrealized, failure of talent that gave the two co-GOATs a fight now and then, but who ‘never really challenged Fedal. Aside from the time he got lucky and won one major when Mr Tennis was indisposed and lost to him in the semis.


Green Lady Says:

J-Kath thanks for the info about Jo, and with Murray junior doubles number 1, British tennis looks pretty healthy ATM….

Looking forward to Monflis / Nishikori, like both so dont care who wins ….


Wog Boy Says:

I didn’t hear or read this kind of conversation during or after 2003-2007, is anybody asking the question who were Roger’s oponents in his first ten GS or who was his competion against then? No, everybody is talking about genius and the GOAT, rightfully so. I don’t see anybody in 10 or 30 years asking that question about Nole, on the oposite, everybody will be talking about golden era of tennis where three best players in the history of the game played aginst each other for the titles…and No1e came out as winner…;)

BTW, in all but one GS out of eleven he won, Nole played against two best players ever and thre best players in the last ten years, fact, no player in the history had to that to become and stay #1 !!


Wog Boy Says:

^^ had to DO that…


skeezer Says:

“Shriver, Carillo, Drysdale, Gilbert, John & Pat McEnroe have been fawning over Federer since 2000.”
Not a bad group of qualified opinions on the matter of Fed, no? Don’t forget Laver.
“Canas beat Fed twice”
Oh, the guy who was caught for Illegal doping?
Uh uh….
Love these “lets minimize Fed achievements” Djoker fans are doing nowadays…lol. You really need to pee on the GOAT to make your fav a great player?


RZ Says:

@J-Kath, it is great that Jo is on the cusp of the top 20. I don’t think she has many points to defend until September, so she will probably move up some more. Hopefully she will continue the good play on clay.


George Says:

@James: As 28 today is equivalent to former 18, I read your post as follows:

For all the people going ga-ga over Djokvic’s level of play – as I mentioned in an earlier post on an earlier thread – there has NEVER been a period like this in the open era when a 18 year old great player (yes, Djokovic IS a great player; it would be ridiculous if I say that he is not) has NOT EVEN ONE younger great player to compete with. 3 times in the last 7 slams his final opponent was in his prime 23/24 (i.e. 33/34 pensioner in old days) year old player.


Green Lady Says:

Wogboy i dont believe that any player can do anything other than beat whos in front of them, and i dont believe in the weak or strong era of tennis either, my problem is that im not in favour of too many years where one player is doing the outright domination, so for the rest of the year id like to see the GS, and other titles getting shared out a bit, years like last year are OK for me as long as there aint too many like that, and yeah to be honest it was irritating when Federer did it too, same with any sport, SO ONTO ANOTHER SPORT, AND COME ON LEICESTER CITY FC ;)) ….


Wog Boy Says:

GL,

It is not you that started this discussion, to my knowledge it is Federer fan on this thread and mostly his fans are the ones who start and keep going about that as of lately, not Rafa fans, simply because they can’t handle the truth, and the truth is that No1e is playing best tennis ever, better than Roger ever played..


skeezer Says:

^LMAO no way.


Wog Boy Says:

GL,

You see what I told you, they just can’t handle the truth.


Green Lady Says:

Wogboy you sound like Jack Nicholson to Tom Cruise, in the film A Few Good Men, you cant handle the truth ! LOL ….


George Says:

@skeezer: If you are fair you will admit that Federer was welcomed by the establishment, groomed and loved even prior his great achievements. However, with Djokovic it was/is different. He was/is not embraced and for him everything was/is more difficult. As an example, Nishikori is a guy with most frequent retirements. Yet, I never heard anybody making big deal about it, nor mentioning SARS, anthrax, cancer etc.


Vami Says:

I don’t believe in weak eras, Roger was simply better than anybody else at the often mentioned “weak” era.
Ferrer got it right the other day; “either Novak’s level needs to drop down or everybody else needs to lift up his own”. That’s what happened to Roger, other players started playing better, it was harder to win matches. He lifted his own level because of others.
Sports rarely go backwards; there’s never been more money, practice, team work, equipment improvements etc. in tennis. These players are the most dedicated ever. A decade ago it was not uncommon to have top 100 players that smoked.
So, right now that one guy is harder to beat, it speaks volumes about that particular person then how inadequate the rest of them are. Novak will still need to beat Rafa and Andy and Roger and whoever is hot at the moment to get his slams, nobody is going to gift him anything.


Wog Boy Says:

George,
Even when they were talking about Nole’s retirements few years back it was few top players who had more retirements than Nole but yet nobody talked about them. One of them was Roddick and yet he had a guts to talk and abuse Nole.


Wog Boy Says:

Meanwhile Monfils won first set agains Samurai.


J-Kath Says:

Green Lady + RZ
Great for Jo.
Jamie is the older brother
…hopefully the two of them will re-inspire Andy.

Ah …there goes Leicester City…I intended to put a bet on them but by the time I decided it wasn’t worth while….but a lot of people did plump up their bank accounts.

Anybody know what has happened to the other court..only the Kei v Monfils match is on….?


Lapinroyal Says:

@WB
“… Bird flu, SRAS, Anthrax…”
Always entertaining this A-Rod… LOL

PS: Novak only missing USopen to have career GS retirement! ;-))


J-Kath Says:

Monfils won first set against Kei!!!


Lapinroyal Says:

@WB
“No1e is playing best tennis ever, better than Roger ever played…”
Pleeeease, the best player is the one that win the last point of a tournament!


skeezer Says:

@George re: 4:03
Agree with you there.

Vami
Spot on analysis.👍


Wog Boy Says:

Lapinroyal,

Don’t worry Nole will achieve that too…after he achieves career GS and calendar GS..


Wog Boy Says:

Lapinroyal,

But Nole is winning those last points more often than not, that makes him the best player, no?


George Says:

@Wog Boy: I just don’t get it. My impression is that even people who hate Djokovic, can’t clearly explain why, i.e. there is a discrepancy between intensity of their hate and declared reasons. Nobody yet told me “He financially ruined me” and yet intensity is there.


Lapinroyal Says:

@WB
Will have to count that…


Wog Boy Says:

George,

I read nice article in Serbian that analysis why Nole is not as loved as the other two, it is pretty good, I’ll give you the link so you can try google translate unless you speak Serbian.
I liked the quote from one ESPN article that basically said that Nole spoiled the party, Fedal party, and nobody likes gate crashes:)

Here is the link:

http://www.rts.rs/page/sport/sr/story/38/Tenis/2264476/Indeks
%3A+Zašto+publika+ne+voli+Đokovića%3F.html


Wog Boy Says:

Sorry, my link made this thread almost unreadable, but blame Sean too, he doesn’t want to make mobile friendly site.


Wog Boy Says:

It looks like Monfils is imploding, and I cheer him in this match:(


RZ Says:

@J-Kath, I think I read somewhere that Judy Murray said that when they were younger Andy was always trying to keep up with Jamie, which motivated him and got him to be where he is today.

If Andy never becomes #1, it’s not for lack of trying. Consider that in July 2013 Andy was the reigning Wimbledon and US Open champion (he was the only man at that point in time to hold 2 GS titles), had the Olympic gold, had won Miami, and was runner up at the Australian Open – yet despite all those points he was still not ranked #1. Djokovic and Rafa were just too tough to get past in the rankings.


Lapinroyal Says:

@WB
How to Insert a link:
1. Specify the target in the .
2. Then add the text that should work as a link.
3. Finally add an
tag to indicate where the link ends.


Wog Boy Says:

Lapinroyal,

I’ll count for you, h2h is 23:22, finals 12:6, GS matches 9:6, WTF 2:2 with one WO, in all these matches Nole won last point so that’s why he is ahead, no?;)


Wog Boy Says:

Lapinroyal,

I have to study that, looks too complicated to me..


George Says:

@Wog Boy: I read this ESPN article by Peter Bodo. I am not sure whether I buy it? In my time, upcoming players were usually embraced. Exceptions were Lendl, Navratilova and Seles (Seles in particular). Also, GOAT was never discussed. I never heard anybody saying something like “Borg is an excellent player, but he doesn’t dominate as Laver did”. The last No1 one was considered to be the best player.


Green Lady Says:

Sorry J-Kath i thought Jamie was younger than Andy ….


Lapinroyal Says:

@WB
You count the wrong stats of course. I forgive you… (LOL)

1067-240
88
17

;-D and Nole will never achieve this:65 (try to guest…)


Wog Boy Says:

“Lendl, Navratilova, Seles..” and they are coming from ..?

That was the third point in the link I gave, I haven’t read Bodo’s entire article just saw that quote, Bodo is blowing hot and cold when it comes to Nole.


Wog Boy Says:

Lapinroyal,

No, it is not wrong stats, just the ones that suits our cause, you know..:)


Daniel Says:

I was wondering about this same issues one other day.

And CF1, Federer was not on hos peak on 2011, hosmpeak ended in AO 2010.

The thing is this qiestios will raise, is Djota that good now?
If he is the GOAT why didn’t he beat Nadal and Federer more consistenly in bog matches pre 2011? He ogr some victories but bot in the way it is now.

He is lucky that there is no young guy but it’s not his fault.

But one have to consider that he is amassong the bulk of all his Slams when Fedal are past thier primes. There is no denying that. Even Murray seema a huge question mark for future Slams wins at thos point and could end his career witout ever reaching #1 (hope not).

I posted this before, we hardly ever had 2 , let alone 3 or the 4 of them playing great and at their peaka at the same time.

That’s why agree with Ben, 2011 was crazy by Djoko but he couldn’t last all year, hos last 2 months was a no show.

Now he is mpre composed.

I don’t like weak era theories but the ones who point them out on Federer all the time has to apply the same standard for right now and must because FedalUrray have their name and their Slams doesn’t mean the are the same players now.


Wog Boy Says:

For example, 88 titles, but 47 majors ones, the rest are 250/500. Now on the other side, 62 titles but 43 major ones and only 19 of 250/500 ones.

You see depends how you lokk at numbers, stats can be deceiving and abused, like politicians do..


BBB Says:

I’m watching Monfils/Nishikori, and Monfils looks like he’s wearing oilskin. Not a good ad for Asics clothing.


George Says:

@Daniel: In 2015, Federer was better player than ever before. This is my personal assessment, but also assessment of Federer himself and some others (Tim Henman, Sue Barker, Andrew Castle, Pat Cash that I know of). I also believe that Djokovic now is significantly better player than in 2011.


Wog Boy Says:

I don’t get it, why Monfils doesn’t change shorts and top? It is dangerous to play like this, the sweat is coming down on court like it is raining.


gee Says:

Who are people kidding?
Even Ferrer, Wawrinka, Berdych, Tsonga, benneteau & 35 year old doubles players had a long second half of great tennis years.

It’s not Nole’s fault that Roddick got away with taunting anyone who made him look bad on the court.
He bragged in 2012 that he had only 1 warning for making a mockery of himself.

He failed at convincing anyone that Nole was never better than Fed. Poor Roddick.
If Roddick was winning more than losing, retiring numerous times and choking to Fed, 2002-2009 would’ve been better than 2011-2016.
Instead of succeeding as tennis’s golden boy, Roddick failed at respecting tennis employees and tennis fans.
Then watched his brother John succeed as tennis coach for educated strangers (not Andy Roddick).


Green Lady Says:

I Really feel for Monflis if he doesnt win this, all those MPs he had ….


Wog Boy Says:

Where is Michael Chang in Nishikori’s box..not that I miss him..


Green Lady Says:

OH Dear so sorry for Gael, this match will haunt him, all those MPs ….


Green Lady Says:

On the other hand,such mental toughness from Kie, nice to finally see a player actually growing a pair ….


Wog Boy Says:

That was brainfart by Monfils, open court and he doing drop shot, it is over now.


chrisford1 Says:

Points: The Weak Era did not start with Fed at #1, it started when Pete ended , in 2000. You had Guga and Safin getting a month or so, shifting #1 back to the other guy, then you had Guga for 30 weeks. after, pretty much finished with injury issues. Then a year and a half #1 by Hewitt, straight 75 weeks, then 9 months f back and forth between Agassi back from dead, Ferraro, Hewitt again, Roddick (3 months)

Then Fed had a situation of no real rivals and 234 weeks straight until Rafa developed all court consistent good results.

Weak era didn’t start with Fed. It ended with Fed as #1 still, though. With Djokovic arriving and Rafa beginning to give Fed fits on all surfaces probably by spring 2007.

2. This isn’t just Nole vs. Fed argument. There was this other guy that battled both plus Andy, subjugated 2 of the 3 other Big 4 players – and is a Legend. No one can say Raphael Nadal had it easy off clay – he was just so talented he madeit on oth grass and hardcourt – not a typical clay courter from Spain. No weak era when Rafa was fighting.

Point 3 – If a weak era started, it was only started in 2015. Since 2011, Novak was supplanted by Fed in 2012 for 17 weeks since Roger capitalized on Novaks late 2011 falloff. Andy battled in 2012-13. Rafa took #1 from Nole in 2013 and held it for 39 weeks. In the last 4 months of 2014, Federer was breathing down Nole’s neck to wrest #1 back. Didn’t get there but 2012-14 Nole only got 1 Slam a year, and no Olympic medal for 3 big reasons and a 4th -Delpo.

Point 4 – The consensus of writers and players is that 2015 was Novak putting together critical improvements not the field magically getting weaker, collectively. Save for Rafa. And Andy – Novak has done to Andy in his prime what Rafa id to Fed in his prime before Novak did it – beat Roger into submission.
So at best, we are 1 year into a Novak Domination. And the “young guns” are no bums. They would thrash Leyton, Ferraro, Roddick. They just got in the wrong place, wrong time. Tough to make inroads on this Top 10. But Raonic is there, Kei is there, Thiem soon will be, and Grigor might reverse his regression and get back in.


J-Kath Says:

Yep Green Lady – Jamie’s nearly 30. He’s married but one never sees his lady-wife so much that I’ve forgotten her name.

I really wanted Gael to win…because have no confidence that Kei can carry the win forward to win again whereas Gael – with him you never know.

@George: I might have bought your comments re. Federer but not after you used Sue Barker, Tim Henman and very, very worst of all Andrew Castle as surety for your view…oh my god! Andrew Castle!

Vami – liked your comments.


mat4 Says:

OK, since everybody is on it, let’s add my two centimes, deniers, dinars, cents, whatever.

From Novak aged 20 to Fed aged 30, their h2h was fairly equal, about 10-10. After that, I think that Federer was behind his physical (emphasis) peak, and before that, Novak wasn’t a top player.

They both had ups and downs, but the fate of the draw didn’t spare them: they were always in the same half of slams, and they have played the most matches in slams ever: 15.

At their best, their rivalry produced the best tennis in the last 15 years (with some matches DelPo played): WTA final 2012, RG 2011, WB 2014 — especially the last one: the first three sets are probably the best I ever watched in a WB final. The level was simply unbelievable, two notches above the 2008 final. And I compared thoroughly those two encounters.

This said, we come to the weak eras theories: Fed won his slams in a weak era, and now Novak is winning in a weak era (BTW, Laver also won the GS in a weak era). So, what is left? The only player that won fair and square, against a tough competition is… tata!!

Then, ask yourself why even now, when he’s irrelevant in tournaments for almost two years, there are more articles about… Rafa, than about Roger and Nole together.

Already in 2007, Nike had made his choice: Rafa was the real deal. Since then, until he left IMG, he was completely covered and protected. Let’s say the truth: he has charisma. He’s good looking, he’s valuable for the Spanish speaking market, and while Federer and Djokovic are incarnations of extraordinary talent and physicality, both in different ways, he was the ordinary boy who won just by the strength of his will.

So, don’t play the game of the weak eras. That’s what PR companies want you to do. That’s what sells Nike and a mediocre Rafa.

And don’t be fool: his fall happens because he has left IMG. No other reason.


J-Kath Says:

Apologies to anyone else.

Margot…I am sad that honest hard working people using skills developed from generation to generation – making the basic goods needed for our world – motivated by pride in their work and the deep human need to care for their families and communities – are in great danger of being destroyed. It resonates strongly with me. I can’t stand this English government.


Wog Boy Says:

mat4,

Does that means Nole’s rise happened because he joined IMG and Roger’s fall started when he left IMG..something doesn’t add up, sorry?


BBB Says:

I want to believe that Gael really has changed his approach to tennis because he seems like a good guy and he’s a great athlete. You wonder, though, if he has left it a bit late, so that he’s not quite sure how to close out these matches. He had a similar problem against Federer a few years ago at the USO, if I remember correctly.


gee Says:

Other than Kyrgios, the 20-35 year old players are usually dignified and fighting for the best wins.
Roddick and Hewitt were pretty mouthy, but not good enough to beat the top players and some journeymen. That’s why 2000-2006 era was incredibly embarrassing.

No offense. Why are politics printed in this thread but the post about Roddick was ignored?


kjb Says:

Whats with all the trash talk about Roddick? He was in the top 10 for like 12 years straight. Won a slam, made 5 slam finals(what other active players other than the big 4 can say that?). He had a winning record against Djokovic, with all those wins coming after Djokovic won his first slam, and I can’t think of another player that has at least 3 wins against each of the Big 4.


kjb Says:

^Stan probably has 3 wins against all 4.


Wog Boy Says:

2009/10 everybody was beating Nole and had a winning record, Tsonga, Verdasko…
Roddick beat him four time in that period, just retired on time when Nole was trashing him again in the last two matches. To take those years as examples is pretty tennis unwise, Nole was thinking of quitting tennis altogether, that’s how low his game and confidence was.


kjb Says:

@Wogboy

I doesn’t take anything away from the fact that he lost. Controlling your emotions and your confidence is all part of being a sportsman. Its like saying that Novaks wins over Fed in the last 3 slam finals don’t count because Fed is old and he is not as confident as he was in his heyday. You can’t just pick and choose what qualifies as a good win or a bad win. A win is a win is a win.


Lodhi Says:

Hi skeez how’s it going ? Long time no c ma man ! Fed didn’t play Miami in case you’re wondering.


gee Says:

Roddick and Ljubicic couldn’t show up to compete, especially on clay, and when they did, it was unwatchable.
Still, the weak era was so dismal that they were ranked #2 & #3.
Blake was ranked #4 above Roddick because Roddick couldn’t reach Year end semifinal in 2007.
What slam champ never reached semi of Masters Cup and choked against top 10 players in the olympics and every wimbledon final?

Hewitt was so awful and injured for many months.
He became a lapdog to Roddick until 2010.
Even 35 year old fed can beat 22-29 year old Roddick, Safin and Hewitt.


chrisford1 Says:

kjb – Part of Roddick’s retirement talk was that by retiring, he would save his status as the only former or present Top 10 player with a winning record over Djokovic (7-6), of those who played Novak more than a few times… That of course was well before Novak passed Fed and Rafa, widened his h2h with Andy.
Andy Roddick saw the writing on the wall.


skeezer Says:

Hi Lodhi aka HR,
Rafa retired early in case your wondering….ya know…couldn’t handle the heat..☀️


Wog Boy Says:

kjb,

You didn’t get it did you? 2009/10 are Tod Martin’s years, years when Nole was playing his worst tennis.

As for for “Fed is old and he is not confident..” statement, that’s a load of crap that you, Fedefans, are trying to sell to devaluate Nole’s wins, but id doesn’t work, keep trying.


BBB Says:

I’m not sure a 35 year old Federer could beat a 22-29 year old Safin. Depends on whether Safin was a particular head case that day. The AO semi in 2005 is the only time I’ve seen Federer tripping and falling on multiple occasions. Even when Federer loses, he usually looks physically graceful doing it. But Safin had him at sixes and sevens.


Daniel Says:

mat4,

Nadal has a “problem” that he needs ti grind several of his wins so even in 2008, 10′ or 13′ we never got the sense of invencibility Fed and Djoko(now) produces, apart from clay of course. As Nadal had to battle more and get some wins from the brink of defeat hos efforts seems more important. Because Fed and Djoko win making the game look easy, whch wasnevee the case with Nadal, apart from RG 2008 whihc is one of the biggest runs in tenjos history.

My two cents, is more like a perception thing.

CF1,

I only have a problem with your logic that you dismiss all players from the pass. I rememberwatcging Hewitt when he was #1 and almsot all the same acolades Nadal had were used for him back than. To me you seem like you have short/selectove memory and thinks/assimethat every player from now on are better the ones before kust because we are watching tennis now and how the game evolved.

You need contest here and all players uou dismiss were great back in their days. Ferrero was a beast on clay, Safin oozd talent almost at will, Hewitt used to beat Fed 7 out of 8 and so was Nalbandian. Even Roddick got a bunch of wins over Novak with a very limited game.

You make ot sound like everyone is playing the best tennis of thier lives in order to make Djoko’s win more relevant.

Djoko os great right now and as Fedal he are vert unique player. But the second tier, third tier and fourt tier players of today are just as good as the ones before.
Is ot really that much difference frok
robredo or Wawrinka (part from 1 Slam). Safin or Murray, Hewitt or you name it. Roddick or another 1 with 1 Slam?!

Apart frok Big 4 who are the inly ones with more than 3+ majors finals. Everybody else from the last 3-7 years are just the same of the ones from Federer generation with 1-2 Slams finals. Right now there ar only 5 active players with multiple Slam finals (3 all time greats – 2 in their final run) another inna limbo and last (Wawa) seeming going down as well. In 2 years time we can have only 2 multiple Slam finalists: Djoko and Murray.

In Fed’s day there was Guga, Ferrero, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Nalbandian, Federer, Agassi, Rafter, Ivanisevic. Waynkore than now.

The hyperbole now is because we have 3 players with 42 Slams won of the last 51!!


Daniel Says:

^meant difference from Ferrero and Wawa, not Robredo…
Many typos, phone typing after some beers😜


Daniel Says:

And Djoko hard core fans keep saying everytime he beats the poor man version of Nadal that “Nadal would have beaten anybody else with his form that day”, just to make Djoko’s win sounds more impressive. 2 standard much!!heard after MC, Beijing, London, Doha, IW… And will be heard many times more as Djokokeeps beating Nadal again and again.

That’s why some keeps saying: the game needs a fit Nadal, it’s best for sport. BS, sole just wants him “back” in order dor future losses looks more legit towrds thros favorite. In this reagrd I love mat4 view who always said he will ratherhave Djokobeating Fed and Nadal as easy as possible, no drama, perfevt match wins.

I few the same way, I want Fed and Djoko to beat their rivals without drama, straight sets anyday. Only when my two faves play each other i want close matches going the distance as they produce the best shot making in my view and I like whatever result comes out of it.


Okiegal Says:

@Daniel….Here is another 🍺 for you!!


kjb Says:

wogboy

Why are you devaluing Roddicks wins over Novak then, its the exact same thing. Saying he was going through an unconfident faze, but it doesn`t work, keep trying. A win is a win.And Fed is 35 man, he is so old and has played so many matches.


kjb Says:

wogboy

Why are you devaluing Roddicks wins over Novak then, its the exact same thing. Saying he was going through an unconfident faze, but it doesn`t work, keep trying. A win is a win.And Fed is 35 man, he is so old and has played so many matches.


Wog Boy Says:

kjb,

I heard you first time and you failed, keep trying with your old man BS.


kjb Says:

wogboy

obviously you didn`t. I think you have to reread my original post, I was comparing the fact that you were blaming Novaks losses to Roddick on low confidence or whatever and I said its the same as blaming Fed losses to Novak to age or confidence, I am saying that it is ridiculous. Novak was a better player on those days the same as Roddick was a better player than Novak on the days that he won. Do I think that Roddick is a better player than Novak……No. Do I think that Roger is a better player than Novak…….Yes, just not anymore.


Wog Boy Says:

kjb,

You failed again, Nole was beating Roger on regular bases since Montreal 2007, that is ten years now, check the records, Nadal was the one that Nole couldn’t crack until 2011, not Roger, and yes, do I think that Nole’s best beats Roger best, yes and I am not the only one, so keep trying with your old man BS.


kjb Says:

@Wogboy

Oldest #2 ever?


chrisford1 Says:

DAniel – Don’t even think of comparing Rafa Nadal to Runty Rusty.
In fact, look at their H2H. Hewitt beat Nadal 3 times when Rafa was 17, 18. Last time he beat Nadal was back in 2006, from a grass court retirement when Rafa got injured.
After that, nothing but Mallorjan thrashings of the Aussie.


Van Persie Says:

I Think Federer, Nole and Rafa (I am including him cos he’s the king of clay) will be considered the gratest ever.
Nole-Fed’s rivalry is one of the greatest in the history of tennis. The fact, that these 2 do not like each other very much, add some salt and pepper ;)


Van Persie Says:

P.S. This “love” between Rafa and Fed is one of the fakest things


Van Persie Says:

Federer and Djokovic will respect eachother in a few years more that we can imagine now


Dave Says:

One thing I find funny is how many people are referring to Federer as 35 years old. Not one person has ever referred to Nole as 29 years old. Yet, Nole is 3 months closer to turning 29 than Federer is to turning 35. Just another way to try and make Federer seem like an old man and Nole to seem so much younger. Also, no one has brought up that Federer beat a legit 35 year old, overwieght Agassi in the U.S. Open finals and Agassi was winning that match half way through the 3rd set. Agassi at 35 wasn’t even close to what Roger has been at 32, 33 and 34 in his last 3 major finals. These were actually Federer’s official ages when he played Nole in the last 3 finals they played at grand slams. A lot of biased going on against Nole as well on this form. So lets get our facts straight.


Giles Says:

VP. Lol. You can’t even analyse properly. It’s not ” love” between Rafa and Fed but actually ” deep respect”.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄


Green Lady Says:

I am including him because hes the king of clay ! err what ? ….


Van Persie Says:

^^ ok, he’s also king of hard and grass courts ;)


Wog Boy Says:

Dave,

I don’t have a problem calling Roger best player looking at his career overall, he has a numbers that others don’t, not yet. I am not going to call him better player than Nole because I believe he isn’t, Nole at his best is better than Roger at his best, that is my opinion.

If you follow this forum lately, as Roger is progressing through tournaments you can read here, “maestro”, “magician at work”, “genius”, “hasn’t dropped a set or service game”, then the final or SF comes and Nole is on the other side of the net. Roger is not just dropping serve, sets and matches, but he is dropping his pants too when he sees Nole on the other side and then his fans are changing the tune, he is not anymore “maestro”, “magician” he is an “old man” and it is no big deal to beat “an old man”.
One thing that they keep conveniently forgetting to mention is that Nole hasn’t started beating that “old man” two-three years ago, he kept beating that old man regulary since 2007, when he was 24/25 and Nole was 20. “Old man” was at his peak then and had yet to reach his peak, but he kept beating until today and regulary so.


Wog Boy Says:

^^^ “and Nole had yet to reach his peak..”


Green Lady Says:

I didnt say that Van Persie, i just didnt understand the” IM INCLUDING HIM” statement especially as the guys won 14 GS, of course he gets included, it surely goes without saying ….


Van Persie Says:

yes GL, 9 of them were on clay… for me personally he was relevant only on clay as a greatest. taht was my point. Ok, he won 1 AO and 2 UO, but he never won the Tour finals…


Green Lady Says:

But why is a surface deemed less relevant for one all time great, we dont take surfaces away from any other all time great, or in some cases we evidentally do then i suppose ???? ….


Van Persie Says:

I said that he is one of the greatest due to his dominance on clay. What is so wrong with that????
I did not say that clay courts are not relevant…


Green Lady Says:

Err OK then, put it this way, you wouldnt be the first ….


Green Lady Says:

And you wont be the last ….


mat4 Says:

@WB:

Novak joined IMG only recently. And look at his schedule here at Miami: toughest match in the heat… Ask yourself some questions. Ditto for last year Cincy, when he played Wawa (1 against 4) at 11 am, and all his matches under the sun.

So no, it doesn’t mean this. But Rafa was a project from the beginning.


Van Persie Says:

GL,

I have mentioned Rafa, because my feeling was (perhaps is not correct), he is ignored as a greatest in the discussions…if you are not pleased the way I did it, sorry.
I have the right to say what I think, like you have the right to say, that tennis lacks competition these days.


mat4 Says:

@Daniel:

We have seen in many other sports that physical decline doesn’t really start at 28.

The theory Rafa had to grind his opponents to win is a nonsense: if you look at the stats, you’ll see that the distance he covered isn’t a lot more than what Djokovic covers, or DelPo, or any of the players who don’t rely much on his serve. It varies from 600 to 900 meters per set. If you think that running 2 to 3 km every second day destroys the body, think about the training, and that children aged 12 do the same. Then, in the last 15 years, training, fitness, nutrition, have made warp 6 improvements: it’s Galactica against wooden ships compared to the time when I played tennis myself.

Let’s also look at the list of players aged more than Rafa, or about the same, whose game hasn’t dropped despite injuries, travels, training, and age:

Stan Wawrinka 31 (improving with experience)
Tomas Berdych 30.5 (as good as ever)
David Ferrer 33.9 (slowly fading)
Jo Wilfried Tsonga 30.9
Richard Gasquet 29.7
Gael Monfils 29.5
Gilles Simon 31.2
Pablo Cuevas 30.2
Philipp Kohlschreiber 32.4
Jeremy Chardy 29.1
Guillermo Garcia Lopez 32.8
Andreas Seppi 32.1

Finally, enough excuses for Rafa’s losses. He loses against Novak because the Serb has improved his serve and his FH. And these matches, these beat-downs are so one-sided, that they should count for two.


Green Lady Says:

Van Persie fair enough, i get on my high horse at times, as im a Sagitarian, and im also bi polar, so sometimes its me that reads people wrong, im not perfect im afraid, im far from it, anyway just to say as ive said in previous posts, i dont think there is such a thing as a strong/weak era, i just think at the moment as ive said in previous posts, theres too much domination by one particular player, and years like 2010, 11, 13, 15 ,or Federers many years , are great / amazing / fantastic whatever ? ,but not all the time ,IMO theres such a thing as overkill ….


Van Persie Says:

No worries GL,

I couldnt ever be angry with you :)
And I did not mean to be disrespectfull to Rafa…wanted to highlight his greatness on clay.
I am Aquarius, so I get along well with Sagitarius ;)

Tbh, If I would not be a Nole fan, I would hate this dominance…like I am still jealous on Rafa for his dominance on clay courts


Giles Says:

There’s a rumour going around that joker has mono. Is this true?


Green Lady Says:

Van Persie cheers Darling ;) , to be honest i think i have more in common with Novak than any other player, he does Tai Chi and Yoga, so do i ,he meditates ,so do i , he walks barefoot on the ground and hugs trees to get closer to nature , and so do i , he does the Holistic way of living and so do i ,Mat4 always said he wished i was a Nole fan ,and secretly thinks i am ;) ….


Van Persie Says:

GL,

Perhaps there are to many things in common with Novak, therefore you do not like him ;)
According to “call of nature” theory we like contrasts :)


Green Lady Says:

VP True dat ;) , and as the saying goes opposites attract ….


Dave Says:

Wog Boy,

That’s not even an issue for me. Federer is the greatest of all-time because of stats. I will agree with that. Nole at his best is better than Federer at his best, hands down. There is no argument from me on that one. I totally agree that people seem to forget about Nole beating Federer in straight sets at the Australian Open when he was only 20. In the Rogers cup as well when he was 20 or 19. Way before Nole even hit his peak and Roger was in his peak. I also find it funny how I have heard so many times on this forum that the last time Federer was in his prime was 28. That’s hilarious. Just to throw that theory out the window, Federer plays the least grinding style of all-time. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. Nole played a way more grinding style than Federer. Nole also got to 700 wins, 19 or 20 days younger than Federer did. Meaning, Nole has played just as many matches as Federer has at this age of 28. So according to Soooooo many Federer fans theory, If Nole accomplishes anything at 29, 30, 31,32 it’s going to be past Nole’s prime. So it’s going to be even more impressive because he played a more grinding style than Federer, so he couldn’t possibly be in his prime at 29 if Federer stopped at 28 with a much less grinding style for that. And guess what? There is absolutely nothing you can say in defense of this theory, if you were one of the ones who have thought this.


Daniel Says:

Nobody is saying Djoko didn’t beat Fed before as Fed had beat Djoko last year also, in Djoko’s absolute peak (so far, this year could be better) in Dubai, Cincy and London RR.

But the questions is that even with Djoko always beating Fed and Nadal, he is only dominating them now, that they are after their peak, no mattar how anyone spins it.

CF1, I wasn’t comparing Nadal with Hewitt as a whole but during Hewitt’s #1 period he won matches the same way Nadal did and was a “machine” on court.

mat4,

Grinding is not just about ruimming on court, but how you finish a point. Nadal, for most of the time, prefers to make his oppoment miss by hitting an extra shot and beying a wall from the bavk of the court, more consistant adn withless mistakes, taking less risks.
Djoko defend just as well but he takes more risks and starys on top of the point better. Also the very nature of Nadal’s serve already creates a “grinding” need for him as he doesn’t gets free points as others top players, even with ad court (BP) lefty serve advantage.

In all periods of dominance there are other factor to count in and what some are arguing about Djoko now was made for all top greats before including Federer and Nadal, so nothing new here. There is always this questios, why is he dominant, how ate others playing, os any major rival injured/sudelined, somebody pass their prime, in their primeand etc.

The Agassi old age was always mentuoned everysingle time he was included in Fed’s generate so nobody is forgotting nothing.

But long term as great as Djoko is and he will beat Fed and Nadal more than lose from now on (if he is to lose at all), the perioda will clear:
1 – Teen talent major force ranked 3 below 2 top greats for year whi could challenge them occasionaly while they are at thir primesand he developing 2007-2010
2 – Hit his peak and start levelling HxH while one other was in his prime and the other entering in transtion to peak to “good enogh for top 4 material” 2011-2014
3 – entering a phase dominating other 2 with both past their peaks 2015-ongoing


Green Lady Says:

Giles where did you hear that bit of info ? ….


BBB Says:

I don’t think the issue with Nadal’s physical challenges is how much territory he covers on the court. It’s the way he hits the ball. A much more physically demanding game. I think of Tiger Woods, and the back woes he has, because of the amount of torque in his game. Not that the two are directly comparable, but just to note that the way you hit the ball makes a difference, not just miles covered.


Dave Says:

Daniel,

No former top player or analyst will ever say that Federer was past his prime in 2011. He was 29 and 30. But I know it hurts for Federer fans to hear that. And someone did mention something about Djokovic being in a weaker era than Federer. No top player or tennis analyst will ever think that either. Murray will by far be known as a better Player than Safin or Hewitt. He has already achieved more than both of them. And all wins head to head count. If Federer wanted to protect his head to head, he should have stopped playing. Nole fans aren’t complaining about all the times Federer beat him when he was just coming up and developing his game. It all counts the same. And in the end, the stats will always read that Nole won the head to head over Federer. In majors, in every catagory across the board. Even on Grass courts, Federer’s best surface.


Dave Says:

My point about Federer at 28 being the the end of his prime can’t be refuted. So many people on THIS form have said that in the past. How convenient to say that when Federer won 0 majors in 2011. Just rememeber, if you think this theory is correct, everything Nole does from now on will be past his prime and will be looked at as extraordinary for achieving these things. Oh wait, no it won’t, because than a biased Federer fan would have to not be biased towards Nole, and that wouldn’t suit your arguements.


Markus Says:

I am a Federer fan but I would not refute Dave’s assumption that Roger was at the end of his prime at age 28. Prime means the period when he was at his best but it does not mean that he suddenly stopped being good and could no longer win majors. I say, no longer at his prime but still very good. So, I see nothing to argue against what Dave said.

About Nole, not everybody reaches his prime at the same age. His prime may be now up to another year.


BBB Says:

I wonder if Nole’s yoga practice will extend the length of his prime.


Dave Says:

Markus,

I am saying that Federer was still in his prime at 29. He just lost all 4 majors in his prime in 2011 to players that beat him. Simple as that. You can be in your prime and still have players beat you. Federer never lost a step or showed any signs of slowing down. He was simply beat. If Federer would have won the U.S. Open in 2011 after Nole saved those match points, most Federer fans wouldn’t have said anything about it. But because he has only won 1 major in 6 years, that must mean Federer is past his prime and has lost something. Not true. He was beaten by better players. Sampras just said Federer is playing the best he has ever seen him play. Federer even feels the same way himself. Most of Federer’s fans don’t agree, because he hasn’t been winning majors anymore. Nole will win more majors than Federer did after 28, 29, 30, because he was the best player at that major. Simple as that.


Markus Says:

That’s true, Dave. You can still be beaten when you are at your prime, like Federer when he got beaten so many times by Nadal and others.

How about Nadal? When do you think was his prime? I would venture to say that he never really hit his prime due to all his injuries.


Green Lady Says:

Markus i would venture the same guess, as he never sustained anything, it was all fits and starts, 08, 10, 13, were his best years, 2011 was solid, although in that he was only beaten by one player, it has been all the injury breaks that have been frustrating as a fan, he has been fantastic winning 14 GS, and as a fan its never been for me a fixation about surpassing this player or that player, as a fan i only wanted him to remain injury free and just play tennis, at least its like that now i think ? ….


Green Lady Says:

^To add and i really hope, i have no expectations anymore^ ….


Van Persie Says:

Nole does not look very good….Seems to be bothered by something. I guess he still has the back issue..


Green Lady Says:

Van Persie, Giles has heard that Nole might have mono ?…. Anyway he has stated that he is suffering with his back, however it isnt much of a concern ….


Van Persie Says:

GL, what Giles said, was the 1 April thing, i guess;)…but Nole is not ok, he struggles there…


FedExpress Says:

if nishi and goffin had a good serve.

berdych u cant handle urs, give them both


Van Persie Says:

Or it’s the heat that bothrs him today, do not know…would not be surprised if he looses today


Van Persie Says:

Goffin is to nervous, he could take advantage, cos Nole is really not ok….


J-Kath Says:

Van Persie

Will be surprised if Nole loses to Goffin…not possible in my book. If I’m wrong…on my knees outside in the rain repenting…


Van Persie Says:

JK,

If Goffin wins today, you will have to post a picture with U repenting ;)


Van Persie Says:

I feel a bit for Goffin now…he had his opportunities….


Margot Says:

First set Nole.
No repenting from Kath….yet…..


Van Persie Says:

I would be glad, if Goffin would win today..would be a huge victory for him…and I would rather see Nole going home and preparing for the clay season. If he had problems with his back, he should rest for a few days…


Daniel Says:

Dave,

2011 Fed was 29 and a half going 30. Djoko will only be at that point end of next year. Where even some of his fans said here he could no longer be as dominant or in “his prime”. Next year we’ll talk again.

Btw I am a Djoko fan as well. But you, the diehards Novak fans that can’t avcept the he is dominating now a past prime Fed and Nadal.

Me and several other tennis fans and writes can safekly say Federer prime ended for good in 2011. Actually it ended in 2010 RG when he lost his 26 straight major semis finals. That streak clearly is an evidence of whats his prime really was.

Of course, that coincides exactly with Nadal’s 3 year Slam and Djoko coming of age next year in 2011.

So what makes this transition happen and the other I mention before, end of prime of a playee and another reaching theirs.


Daniel Says:

And Fed still os that good, his game lost small parts in the whole whih is still good enough to beat almost everybody, had not being Djoko innhis absolute best he could have more Slams now.

That only shows that just a slight decrease from his form and Djoko slight increase and voilá, the last 3 Slams matches they play happen.


Daniel Says:

Also, before 2010 (Fed’s delcine mid year) Djokohad zero Slams wins over Nadal out of 4 matches and 1 Slam win over Fed (his first Slam in AO 08′) out of 5 matches played before USO 10′ happen. So before ge reached hos prime he was only able to beat the other Big 3 in their promes once in 9 matches and that in “mono” year, whatever you choose to believe or not.

Now he won last 3 Slams out of 3 with Fed and 4-4 (with 4 on clay 3-1 Nadal) winning last one in RG.


Green Lady Says:

LOL Gordon really started something ….


Van Persie Says:

Daniel…in 2011 Fed was 29, so not old at all. I guess the most balanced years were 2008-2014


Daniel Says:

Not able to see the match just checking score but seems Djoko is having a lot of trouble on his serve. Several 0-30 and 15-30 games plus only 2 aces for a long ser and this other games in set 2


Van Persie Says:

And Fed and Nadal dominated before 2011 a guy who almost wanted to retire from tennis, cos he did not know what hes suffering from….


Van Persie Says:

So, dear Daniel,we can find excuses, and excuses, and excuses…


Daniel Says:

VP, in tenjos years it is kind of old but the thing we were discussong was prime, and in 2011 Fed was no longer in hos prime.

The paralale that both him and Nadal has a major decline at almost exactly the same age and they being consider by mant GOAT 1 and 2, top 3, it’s an interes paralele to take note.

Next year Djoko will be 29 and following him from RG 2017 to May 2018 will give us a good parameter to evaluate and compare with Fedal

Nadal declined after RG 2014, when he was exactly 28 (just completed. His whole 29 was the oerdt part of hos entire career with only 2 titles I think. Fed’s decline began in RG 2010 when he was 28, 4 months of turning 29. He and Nadal declined 6 months apart, Nadal a bit sooner but was a uoung prodgy so it kinds of even out.

With Djoko we don’t know yet, we just know he is in hos prime now.


Van Persie Says:

Daniel,

Nole did not dominate Fed, when Fed was in his prime. Fed did not dominate Nole in Noles prime. But at the and the H2H will matter


Van Persie Says:

If Kyrgios wins today….and Nole will play like today, Nick could trash him…
Sorry for Goffin


Daniel Says:

VP, is not excuses, fact and stats, they just happen to not be at their primes at the same time.

As you ponted Djoko thought of retiring feom tennis, so he wasn’t good enoug, commited enough, drivem enoug you name it. Bit now Fed and Nadal are not what they once were and this is prcesiley the time where Djoko is playing his best. Not hos fault, but wanting to believe that Djoko is beating a 32, 33 and 34 yld Federer playng the best tennis of his life just to make the win more “deserving” is blindness.

What matters is the win, resylts, stats, records and in the end of their career we cna evaluate and access. But what piss me off is double standard in thsi regards and people acrually wanting to belive Fed is as good as ever.

Oh, and To quote you: Djoko wanting to retire pre 2011, excuses, excueses. How many times have the Todd Martin ages, changing serve, and lost 2009/2010 being thrown here by Djoko fanatics?! See, is a two way street.

i agre with this as well, Djoko was not the playee he os now in 2009/2010 and Fedal capitulate on that but they at least had one another in their prime to content with, Djoko has nobody else in its prime.

Actually this can even hurt him long term as ge may get ut to easy and lose focus. Sole of his early mathes can supoort this theory (bit he is still peaking for finals, when needed and winning big titles, what really matters).

I don’t care of he beats nobodies from now on as long as he get RG and preferably win all majors this year.

But you guys living in lala land os too much.


Van Persie Says:

If Murray is nobody, Wawrinka the same…and if in 2011, 2012 Nadal and Fed were nobody…do not know exactly what you want to proove, but you are wrong.

2004-2007 were also not very spectacular. Nadal won only on clay in those years and Fed did pretty much the rest. So I assume those years are also irelevant, if we apply your theory


Wog Boy Says:

VP,

Don’t worry abou Daneil, he is the master to pick stats that suits his point (and his favorite) and than to work around them, time and time again, he is very good in that, good that he is nole fan too:)

The real question is, what was bothering Nole, could it be heat and humidity, I just check my Miami weather app and it says, temperature is 31, feels like 35 and high humidity, that’s pretty harsh.


Wog Boy Says:

Dave,

Thanks for the nice, very reasoned and factual posts.


Wog Boy Says:

VP,

Plus wind 26km/h, which makes it pretty windy.


Van Persie Says:

WB,

Nole was bothered by the heat…and seeing him moving between the points, it was obvious that he had also physical problems
Tbh, I wanted him to loose…he needs some rest before the clay season…


Van Persie Says:

Goffin had his chances in the 1 set but was very nervous, well playing semifinals against Nole was to much for him, mentally


Wog Boy Says:

” It’s the way he hits the ball. A much more physically demanding gAme.”

BBB, I am with you on this one, it is the energy he invests in his shots and extreme pressure on body to produce thise shots. I can see Thiem having the same problems in the future. Nole himself said that Thiem shots had awkward spin and very hard to control plus a lot of power, if you look at Thiem’s shot you’ll see he hits with lot of power but invest entire body plus very powerful wrist flip to produce spin.


Wog Boy Says:

Thanks VP.


Van Persie Says:

My pleasure WB


courbon Says:

Daniel, agree with some of your points but there is one thing that has been repeated over and over, and you just mentioned aswell:
When we discussing Novak he is in his prime at age 28/29, right?
But when we are discussing Fed or Nadal for that mater, then they have been in their prime age 23-27?
So, if we say that player in his prime is 28/29 then Rafas prime was 2014?
And Fed prime was 2010/2011?
In that case Novak ‘prime’ is much better , right?
Or if you prefer to call prime age of 25 ( which most experts would say ), then Novak is past his prime and he is playing fantastic for old guy…
Also, Rafa is only one year older then Novak-they are both in the same prime more or less..And let us not forget Andy… he was always in his prime with Novak
2011-Nadal 25, Fed 28/29-Novak has good year
And also , people keep saying that Novak is lucky right now-I agree.But he was also the unluckiest player ever to play his best years under the shadow of two probably greatest players ever.So that unlucky and lucky periods even each other…

I know, some Nole fans are over entusiastic so understand you


Daniel Says:

Courbon,

I never said age determine prime, I said periods of winning multiple Slams does.

Fedal just coincindently happen to end their prime at 28/29, what could very well happen tonDjoko next year or ealy 2018, when he will be 29+.

We can do an exercise, What can be considered the most competitve period in recent years? Insay from Wimbledon 2012 to RG 2015 in this spam of 12 Slams (3 years) we have the following winning: Djoko (3) Nadal (3), Murray (2), Wawa (2), Fed (1) and Cilic (1). 6 players shared 12 major with no one winning more than 3.

- In 2004-2007 (Fed’s peak years, Nadal wasn’t in hos still)
Fed 11 Slams
Nadal 3 Slams
Safin 1 Slam
Costa 1 Slam

- 2008-2010 (Fed and Nadal both still at their peaks)
Nadal 6 Slams
Fed 4 Slams
Djoko 1 Slam
DelPo 1 Slam

- 2011-2014 (Fed pass prime, Nadal still in his and Djoko hit his peak; Murray could be considered, although surgery happened in 13′)
Djoko 6 Slams
Nadal 5 Slams
Murray 2 Slams
Fed 1 Slam
Wawa 1 Slam
Cilic 1 Slam

- 2015 to now (Djoko at his peak and nobody else, if Wawa wins a Slam for third consecutive year than he has a case for still be in his prime)
Djoko 4 Slams
Wawa 1 Slam

This is still a small period but let’s say Djoko win 2 more this years and Wawathe other than it becames
6-2

If he wins all 4
7-1

If he wins 3 and somebody else other than wawa
6-1-1

Suddenly the numbers will be getting closer and closer to Fed’s period of sinlge dominance.

So see VP, my point os that there is hardly ever a period of multiple players were at their prime at the same time and every period of dominance had 1 player obliteraing the field, for many other reasons, but mainly because only he was at hos prime.

It’s a paradox, if prime is defined by winning multiple Slams, than a player who wins too much is too dokinant or in “weak era”.

Age just happen to be the statistic of past and present bit ot can very well start a new trend (Djoko and Wawa) were 27+ could be the new “old 24-26″ hence I am vert curios to see how Novaks numbers will be once he get close to 30.


Daniel Says:

Just to compelte:

- Fed at AO 2010, 4 straight finals, won 3. Only 1 Slam win after

- Nadal RG 2014, 3 straight finals, won 2. So far, never reached a single Slam semis after. This are precisely the peiroda thier prime ended. And they can win an scathered Slams here or there (hardly to see it actually happening now) or have a single great tournament, Fed’s RG 2011 or Wimby 2012. But that isn’t prime
Anymore. Same as Djoko’s 2008 AO, a great tourney but he wasn’t at his prime yet


George Says:

People confuse the level of performance with the outcome of performance. For me, the highest level of Federer’s play ever was 2015 and for Nadal 2011. If Djokovic didn’t exists, that would be their legendary/best seasons.


courbon Says:

Daniel, I understand you but age has to determine prime otherwise is to incosistent and messy looking at ‘winning slam years’-Look, novak won 3 slams in 2011 and then 3 in 2015.When was he in prime?
Nadal in 2010 and then 2013.What was the prime year?
But on the other hand, 28 could be ‘new 24′ so prime years are shifting…
Novak at 30? I really can not imagine that far-sport is so unpredictable.
All this does not mater, we should enjoy watching BIG 4, while we can, because young ones are knocking hard on the doors…Last 10 years was privilege to watch those 4 guys ( and some others ) fighting each other week in, week out…


Daniel Says:

Courbon,

prome is not just a year is period and age is part of it but not what determines.

Nadal’s prime is from 2008 to RG 2014 after that he was not the same. Prior tomthat he was still good, 3 RG titles but he wssn’t what je was on the spam I mention above

Djoko start his prime in 2011 and still is on it. How long is the million dollar question now?!


Wog Boy Says:

Federer wasn’t winning multiple slams (or slams) not because he wasn’t in his prime, but better players than him stopped him from winning them when he was still in his prime, as simple as that.
Stop taking certain periods, just look at their careers overall, Nole lost his first four matches to Roger, and we don’t say he was young and not in his prime. At the end it is going to even out, Nole lost first four when he was still learaning the trade and Roger is going to lose last four due to his old age and they are square. Now let’s look at the numbers in their matches, Nole is ahead in every department and conclusion is…Nole is better player, you see, very easy…just keep repeating and you’ll get used to it…it takes time though;)


Daniel Says:

Fed’s 2004-2010: 6 years 29+Yld

Nadal’s 2008-2013: 7 years (6 if you remove second half of 2014) 28 yld

Djoko’s 2011-2016: so far 6 years.

If the trend continues Djoko will start decline end 2017 or 2018 when he will 29+?!?!


Wog Boy Says:

Frenchie,

We have a saying “sto prosto kada moze komplikovano” and that’s exactly what these naysayers are doing, trying to complicate something that can be explained in simple manner in order to fog the things up.
That’s ok, I understand them, and I will rephrase great Gary Lineker:

“Tennis is a simple game. Two men hit a yellow ball and at the end, Djokovic always win.”

And Frenchie.. drink responsibly;)


Daniel Says:

WB,

I said Djoko was not in his prime till 2011 and stand by it. Beijg in prime or not doesn’t mean that you won’t be able to win Slams or jot beat your main rivals it just show that there is a perido in your career where you were better than anybody else.

And this things about even out at the end, had Federer stop playing after his Wimby 2012 run and reaching 300+ weeks at number 1, Djoko wouldn’t have hos last 3 Slams victories over him nor positive HxH.

So things are only “evennong out now” because Fed is still competitve, top 3 and lising more often than he wins. See how is very subjecrive. Fed could have his career finishied by now and his numbers will look better.

I always said this about Nadal as well, how he will going to perform in hos twilight years and so far (last 20 months) haven’t been anything up to hos standards.

Every single player past present and future has a window where they are in their primes. It’s like a Gauss Curve (normal distribution). You start below, get a crescendo, reach a prime and just fall down back to start point.

How long does your “top” endures and how much you win is the difference for all time great players


Daniel Says:

Also, nobody knows the future, what if Fed and Nadal keep still palying got their beating but suddenly something happen to Novak and he declines and they start winnig again?

Or what of Novak suddenly after a Slam win decides to call it a day, and retires? He will not allows to see how his “decline” days will be like. We got the picture with Federer and Nadal, but Djoko is still incognito. Ony future will tell. How you perfom, accept and go thorugh when down also shows your true grit.


Dave Says:

Daniel,

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Nole is 29 in 1 month. You have to go by age. And as I said earlier, Federer lost to better players in 2011. He didn’t lose a step. He still hasn’t lost a step in my opinion. He moves amazingly around the court. Your theory doesn’t add up. As I said before, Nole played a way more physically demanding game style than Federer up to this point in their careers. Federer played the least grueling style of anyone in the sport of tennis ever. So he isn’t going to slow down before Nole as far as age goes. And he didn’t slow down, if he had, he wouldn’t have won wimbledon in 2012 or gotten to 3 more finals.


Wog Boy Says:

Daniel:

“And this things about even out at the end, had Federer stop playing after his Wimby 2012 run and reaching 300+ weeks at number 1, Djoko wouldn’t have hos last 3 Slams victories over him nor positive HxH.”

If he stoped in 2012 he wouldn’t give a chance for things to even out, Since Nole gave him a chance to beat him when he was puppy and Roger didn’t give chance to Nole to beat him when he was an old fart. So my point stands, you just confirmed, Nole ended up better player in their rivalry, because things evened out, but Roger still have a chance to reverse it, you never know..


Daniel Says:

I don’t understand what is so compicates with: Start (pre prime), Middle (prime) and End (past prime).

You are born, adult, old

Everything has a beginning a middle and end and nothing is more cristal clear than sports where their “life expectancy” is very narrow, usaully 10-15 years at best.


Dave Says:

Daniel,

Federer’s numbers will not look better than Nole’s numbers unless he does something about it this year or next year. If Nole wins WTF this year, they are tied 6 to 6. Nole is already 3 Masters 1000′s ahead of Federer. If he wins on Sunday it will be 4 and a LOT more. I really don’t see anyone getting more year end number 1′s than Nole either. If he gets it this year, he is tied with Fededer at 5. I don’t see anyone overtaking him to get to number 1 anytime soon either. Someone would have to outplay Nole on ALL the surfaces during a 12 month period. I don’t see that happening this year or next. If that’s the case, he will only need around 20 more weeks at number 1 to beat Federer’s all-time record. The only record that seems safe of Federer’s for now is the 17 majors. That one is hard to predict for sure. I won’t go all out predicting that he will break that record. He needs to get a lot closer first. But because he is so good in the masters 1000′s and WTF in London, even if he doesn’t dominate all of the majors in the next 3 years, I feel he will still be number 1.


Daniel Says:

As uou ponted right now things are “even out”. And having a 23-22 is as dead even as ot could be.

Ans so far, 17>>>>>>>>>11. Djoko has a lot to cathc and I beleive right now he has a pretty solid 50% chance of doing it.

Djoko is the one doing Catch me if you can! Not Federer.

Federer is trying to do Silver Linings Playbook

I am in movie mode today😜


mat4 Says:

@Daniel:

There are two kinds of prime:

1) physical prime: it’s probably around 22-26; after that, players getting a bit slower;

2) “technical” prime, when a player is a the peak of his craft.

For decades, technological shifts have hidden that it doesn’t happen at the same time.


mat4 Says:

Djokovic, Nadal, Federer — all three are far from their respective physical primes.

But Federer and Djokovic continued to improve. Rafa didn’t.


Dave Says:

Daniel,

If that is the case, you are born, adult, old than Nole can’t be in his prime at 29 years old next month if Federer’s prime ended at 28. Case closed. Everything Nole does from here on out will look even more spectacular. I think I’m going to start posting: Pretty good for an old man after everyone of Nole’s titles this year. He is going to break all of the old man records now.


Daniel Says:

Yeah Dave I feel the same regarding everything Djoko can achieve. Plis Inwant him to win RG and Cincy and Olympica gold if possoble but i have my reservations with Olympis (to short period of relevance), so he will have the most complete resume on tennis history ever.


mat4 Says:

Rafa’s technique is very peculiar. He’s the only player that knew how to hit a flat FH as a teen ager, and doesn’t know how to do it now. He’s also the only player that served 128 mph avg first serves in ONLY ONE TOURNAMENT, before forgetting how he did it.


Daniel Says:

Guys I didn’t said 28 is the benchmark. I said Nadal decline at 28 and Fed at 29+. Djoko os still to reach 29 so let’s start at least untill next year to revert to thos topic and see if the BIG 3 will have a similar career or not.

If Djoko stars declining late 2017 or erlay 2018 than we will knpw for sure that 3 all time greats in the last 15 years could only sustaina perido of ‘maximum 7 years of “prime” dominance where they win more than double Slams than everybody else.

Have to ceunch Smapeas numbers but pretty sure they will be the same as Fedal. He declines after Wimby 2000 and peaks in 1993-1994.


mat4 Says:

His downfall is not in relation with his physique, but if it was — it would only his fault.

And I don’t agree he was the ultimate grinder. He has always had a great forehand to finish points. He was great in defence, but excellent in attack too.


Daniel Says:

If Djoko indeed sustainthis level beyond 2018 than the resulta will follow (Slams, weeks as #1, titles and he will be the true GOAT) the one who could win the more, reaching all top parameters and sustaining it for longer.


Wog Boy Says:

“As uou ponted right now things are “even out”. And having a 23-22 is as dead even as ot could be.”

But, big but, if you have closer look in that 23:22 you will find out 9:6 in GS matches, 12:6 (plus Wo) in finals…not quite even as you might wish..
#17 stands safe, so far..


Dave Says:

Mat4,

I agree that he was never the ultimate grinder and he was always able to finish points with his forehand. But he definitely grinded more than Federer by a long shot. And Federer has hit over twice as many aces in his career than Nole to finish off points a lot easier to go with his also superior forehand. That was the point I was making. Federer’s style of game is less taxing on the body than Nole’s style of game, if you just compare these 2 players.


Dave Says:

Wog Boy,

17 is definitely safe so far. I have to agree. I won’t be saying anything about him beating 17 just yet. He has sooooooooooo much work to do. And will need to brake Agassi’s record of winning 5 slams after his 29th birthday. Every slam Nole plays from this day foreword, he will be 29 or older. So that is a record he should focus on breaking. If he does, he will tie Fed with 17 slams.


George Says:

Djokovic is not yet undisputed GOAT, but he is more of a GOAT than Federer and Nadal. Federer has 23:11 as a deal-breaker and he needs to improve to, at least, (respectable) 23:18 or similar. Nadal’s deal breakers are relatively frequent loses against (very) low ranking players and relatively short No1 time. Djokovic’s only “problem” is a number of majors and RG. I also see positive H2H with both RF and RN as a huge plus for ND.


Dave Says:

George,

I know this might sound a bit dramatic, but I feel that if Nole wins RG this year, than he goes on to break all of the records. It will release so much pressure from him. If he doesn’t win RG this year, he doesn’t break the record. He just won’t carry the same momentum with a loss at RG this year that he would if he wins it. It really is the most important tournament for him to win THIS year. Until he wins RG, I just don’t see him breaking the all-time record. He needs to be able to win at more than 3 majors. It’s not going to be so easy to win at Wimbledon once Kyrgios and others hit their stride. The U.S. Open was never a tournament that he has faired well in during his career compared to Australia. He can’t just depend on 3 majors, especially as he gets older.


Daniel Says:

Also, the older player always have a disavantage and I have to check the ATP HxH to see how it was during thier first match (not sure of it was 2006) untill 2010 (spam of 5 years) and 2011 to now, spam of 6 years and coutong.

They are almost 6 years apart and if the prime Fed x Pre prime Djoko period is smaller than After prime Fed x Prime Djoko than it will leanntowdrs the later (as seema to be the case).

If Djoko end up playing X matches wirh Federer 7 or more years after his prime while Fed only played him Y matches 5 years in Fed’s prime and X is greater than Y than it also explains the HxH.

How many marches they played and in which pahses is a huge mark, specially when you have 5+ years difference. With Nadal and Djoko or Murra this doesn’t aplly and we can only separte woth thirr prime phases so things are way easiee to compare.

I will check atp later and return with the numbers


George Says:

@Dave: I don’t know what to think? Winning like this looks unsustainable. Nobody has ever done it. We are now in uncharted territory. I think that FO2016 will be ultimate test of Djokovic’s mental toughness.


Dave Says:

The problem with this is that we don’t agree on the age that Federer left his prime. He sure looked like he was in his prime when he put on a masterclass in the French Open semi-final, a surface Federer would have needed to be in his prime to beat an in prime Nole in 4 sets. Also, he sure looked like he was in his prime when he had match points in the Semi-finals of the U.S. Open and couldn’t close it out. He was blowing Nole off the court for the first 2 sets as well in that match. If you don’t put 2011 as Federer’s prime a year in which he played 3 of the 4 majors when he was technically still 29 years of age, than the numbers won’t probably even out.


Dave Says:

And also, it really discredits Nole and Murray in 2012 if you say that an out of prime Federer beat Nole and Murray back to back to win Wimbledon. Nole and Murray couldn’t even win more than a set each in those matches. So an out of prime Federer is sooooo much better than in an in prime Nole and Murray. Grass being Murray’s best surface. 30 years old really isn’t that old either. It’s to subjective. Its all a matter of opinion Daniel. And we just aren’t agreeing on this topic, and never will I suspect.


George Says:

@Dave: Federer played much better against Murray in 2015 than ever before. I think that he had significantly improved his H2H against Murray in last few years.


Daniel Says:

Dave,

But that is the point, one super major performance (RG 2011 semis, where he didn’t won the title) or Wimby 2015 semis (where he didn’t won the title either) doesn’t male that a prime. Similar to playees who have incredible matches before they hit their prime.

What is the ultimate major of success? Winning Slams.
How can you define how a players is in peak, number of Slams won in a period.
I don’t look at age first, I look at what was their Slam results in a 52 week spam.

Fed in 2004 hit his prime after he won AO 04, as out of the last 3 Slams he had won 2, Wimby 03′ (his first) and AO two Slams later.

Whn did he stop winning multiple Slams in a single 52 week Spam? In 2010.
- Age: from 22-29

Nadal, won a slam a year for 3 years and reached 2 Wimby finals but when he actually hit his prime? 2008 Wimby when he held 2 of last 4 Slams.
When did hos prime end? In RG 2014 when he also held 2 Slams out of 4 for the last time.

- Age: 23-28

Djoko won a Slam in 2008 after 2 back to back finals, but that wasn’t prime, was him tellijg us the potential. The prime came in Winby 2011 when he won 2 out of 3 and was in 3 of the last 4 finals (USO 10′). Now he is on his prime and once he helds only 1 Slam in a 52 weeks Spams I will say it os the end of hos prime.

- Age: 24-?????

See that nobody of top 5 great contenders were able to replicare a multiple slam after their prime ended. At most 1 or 2 Slams.


Daniel Says:

They all started their prime in early 20 (as mat4 pointed as physical prime) and ended (Fedal so far) before 30.

Djoko is the one who can win 2 Slams after 30 (or Federer) without the Agassi factor (1 years plus outside the tour).


Wog Boy Says:

Daniel,

You can’t be serious, you can’t defend that one. Not winning multiple slams doesn’t necessarily mean you are not in your prime any more, it could be that somebody else was better than you and stopped you, like Nole did nine times, Rafa who knos how many, “even Andy” did it.

Somebody mentioned Nole’s case, so he was in his prime in 2001, then wasn’t in 2012/13/14, then got back in his prime in 2015?! Not the cas,, Andy was playing light out in 2012 (bring back Lendl, he loves money) and Rafa in 2013 and they stopped Nole, as simple as that.


Wog Boy Says:

^^ 2011


Daniel Says:

WB I said a spam. They don’t newd to win multiple slam for all years of the Spam. But I defend my point and I show it every evidence for it. I said it start with multiple Slams and end with multiple Slasm otherwise you can determine what is the prime criteria. Or do tou think Nadal’s prime was since 2005 to knwo or Roger’s os 2003 till know.
It isn’t. It has a begginign a middle (prime) and after prime. Prety simple to identify it. The Slams, #1 are all there to show it.

Fed 2004-2010.

The only other criteria some posted here is age? But how can you establish a age prime when players start and end their primes in different ages? Although we all know that ir si surrounding a gap 20-29.

No past evidence or future apiitned to prime after 30. There were a few case of pre 20 but Agassi and Connors I think arr the only ones in Open era with multiple Slams after.

We discussed here before that not a sinlg player was able to win more than 6 Slasm after 26 or 28 if I am not mistaken.

Nadal 2008-2014

Djoko 2011- present

Murray only had a 1 years Spam frok Wimby 2012 to USO 2013. And that is about it.

Sampras 1993-2000

But this are the easy ones.


Daniel Says:

Another basis,

When was the times Fed, Nadal and Doko and samaras were all Yenear End Number 1? during their prime years.

- Was Fed year end #1 after 2010? NO, he was from 2004 to 2009 (within his prime years)

- Was Nadal year end #1 before 2008 or after 2013? NO,he was in 08′, 10′ and 13′ all within his rime years from 2008-2014

- Was Djoko eve Year end #1 before 2011? NO, he was in 2011, 12′ 14′ and 15′, all within his prime years spam.

The argument that Player A was still on his prime But Player B is better and overtake him doesn’t hold true because if player B has more Slams and more Year End #1 than Player A can’t still be on his prime because to be on his prime already imply that you are the dominate player of that particular period.

I overlap the periods several times and when 2 were at their rime at the same time, the Slam gap and Year End #1 were shared.

When Nadal was in his prime he won 11 Slams to Djokos 5, was Year end #1 3 times to Djoko’s 2 and Fed 1.

When Fed was on his prime he was Year end #1 5 times to Nadal 1

When Djoko was/is on his prime he was Year Edn #1 4 times (and counting) to Nadal 1.

It’s always the same.


George Says:

@Daniel: Lets go slowly. Do you claim that, for any player, his prime years=his most successful years? Please, answer simply yes or no.


Daniel Says:

George:

YES, but not only the best years, the best years SPAM, best years period of time, interval, middle of their careers.

I and many other claim exactly the same thing. We talk here overtime about prime period. That a prime year start when a player break trough, win multiple Majors for the first time, hence reach Yea end #1 and hold that level, staying #1 and winning more majors than all his other rivals for that period. Once he is no longer able to be Year end #1 or win multiple majors he left his prime.

Prime is when the is on top of his form so he will win more and not allow anybody else to be better than him.

Until 2010 Fed was able to do that but once he left his prime Nadal emerged. If Fed was still in hi prime he wouldn’t allow Nadal and Djoko to raise.

WB said, Fed was dethroned by Nadal or Djoko Isaid it only happen because he was no longer in his prime.

Some will say Djoko dethroned Nadal, but it only happen because Nadal was o longer in his prime after 2014, otherwise he wouldn’t allow it.

Pretty simple and same thing will happen t Djoko, his prime will only end when a player is able to win more majors than hm and steal #1. Once he is no longer able to be Year End #1 and have more majors than his compassion e is out of his prime.

Prime is single period of dominance but that doesn’t mean that this players can have other great matches ether prior or after their prime; Fed 2012 2 months when he won Wimby and got back to #1 for a few weeks. Sampras winning USO 2002;Djoko 2008 AO and may others. This is great FORM.

A player can still have great form but not be in his prime.

You can not possibly say that Fed was still in his prime in 2011/2012, but we can say he was in great form in RG 2011, Wimby 2012 and was on great form last year in his back to back Wimby / USO finals.
He was not on his prime on 33-34


George Says:

@Daniel: If it is yes, is the quality of a player the only factor that determines his success?
Yes or no?

Does it mean that the field that a player play is irrelevant for a players success?
yes or no?


Dave Says:

George,

Daniels reasoning is faulty. It’s as simple as that. He is saying straight up, the only reason Federer didn’t win a slam in 2011 was because he wasn’t in his prime. When the fact is Nole and Nadal were better than him and it wouldn’t have mattered. There is no point in even talking about this anymore. Federer tried not to allow it to happen, but it happened because they were simply better than him. It takes almost all credit away from Nadal and Nole when they won in 2011. It’s like saying, the only reason they won is because Federer wasn’t in his prime anymore. Not true. You can be in your prime years and not win slams. I can also say the only reason Federer has 17 slams and the record is because everytime Nadal got injured, Federer took over. Nadal was cleaning up and dominating Federer at times. He goes for a long injury layoff, Federer wins everything. This was before 2010. Nadal could have easily been the one everyone was talking about and not Federer. So I guess if Nadal didn’t get injured and kept cleaning up, than Daniel would be calling the end of Federer’s prime 2008 becuase that when he would have stopped winning. It doesn’t make sense.


gee Says:

It was an ebb & flow for Nole & Nadal plus Nole improved his serve & movement.
Since everyone else was far inferior, the age wasn’t a big deal in 2007-2016.
usually the slam champ and finalists of masters/slam players had physical strength and longevity.

Back in 1990-1999, age was important because there were several strong slam players, Sampras struggled with low red blood cell count while Agassi slumped with personal problems in 1995.

The reason the 2000-2006 era was called weak was because there were clowns like Roddick.

They hadn’t much more than 1 shot and worst of all, were Fed fawning sycophants that wished so badly to see Nole lose & hand Fed the GOAT title with sheer lies, endless worship, apologizing, hyperbole, propaganda, etc.

Most media people & players then weren’t so much opponents, but more like sycophants & doormats. Credit to Wawrinka. Unlike Roddick, he played for improvements & wins. He didn’t get away with abusing umpires and linesjudges & trying to distract Nole to gift fed with 25+ Slams.
Hopefully, there isn’t ignorance anymore to spoiled brats that got away with greed, not trying to beat the Slam champs & being criminally abusive traitors without punishment.


Daniel Says:

Exactly Dave,

Nadal wasn’t good enough to clean up Slam and Federer was because both were i their prime in 2008-2010, tat is why Fed won 4 slams in this period and Nadal won 6. Nadal’s was slight better but to dominate overall.

My point doesn’t apply to Federer, it apply to everybody.

In 2011-2014 for example, Nadal and Djoko were both at their at their prime, Nadal won 5 Slams and Djoko won 6. See, it’s even because both were at their prime, similar to Fedal in 2008-2010.

When only one is at his prime and the there isn’t than a dominant period happen, second half 2014 to know, as only Djokovic is at his prime.

Fed 2004-2007, only him what at his prime hence he won 11 Slams to Nadal 3.

It apply to everybody, Sampras before than.

You guys that don’t accept that Djoko is winning more since 2011 because Federer decline and Nadal had only 3 more prime years in him.

Had the three of them primed at the same time the Slams would be divided as proven when 2 were in prime at the same time.

In fact Federer and Djokovic were never in their prime at the same time, Fed’s ended in 2010 and Djoko stared in 2011, but that doesn’t mean they can’t have competitive matches and good form on a given day.

To me I think is what makes their rivalry so interesting as both were able to produce great tennis in each other dominance, even if now as Fed get’s older and older it’s very hard to see him winning big matches again.

It’s not dissecting matches,just assessing the reality of what prime years mean and every player has his window.


Daniel Says:

Of course it makes sense Dave, a prime end when a player is not able to dominate and win major anymore.

Let’s see what you guys will say Djokovic end of prime will be in a few years or months?

When Fed lost to Soderling in RG 2010 ending his 26 semis finals straight in Majors all writers and people here were saying, “the end of an era” and that was exactly what it was.


Daniel Says:

So, you think Nadal is still in his prime? or Federer is still on his prime, or even Murray, who is not able to win Slam after the last 10?

Just because Djokovic is the most superhuman player that had ever lived and his prime is better than everybody else prime (Nadal 28-29, Fed 30-34 and Murray 28-29)?

C’mon!! They are not the same players they were, Fed in 2006-2009, Nadal 2008-2013, Murray 2012/2013.

Both things happened: Djoko raised his level and reach his prime all his 3 rivals declined, Pretty simple.


Van Persie Says:

Daniel,

Reading your comments again, I can now get to 1 conclusion: Federer had the longest period of time without a competitor in prime: 2004-2007.
Between 2007-2010 only Federer and Nadal were in theyr prime.
2011-2013: Djokovic, Nadal and Murray in theyr prime.
2014-2015: Djokovic and Wawrinka


Van Persie Says:

Hereby Nadal should be the GOAT at the moment, not Federer. He leads Federer H2H, and Nadal had always competition during his prime.


Green Lady Says:

Van persie lol, id duck for cover i were you saying that, must admit i do like your summary though lol ….


Van Persie Says:

GL, It is the truth.;)

Rafa beat Fed on Feds best surface (WB), Fed never beat Rafa at the FO.


skeezer Says:

@Daniel,
You are not getting through to the ifs ands or buts of the few rose colored glass wearers of Nole posters here, don’t worry about it. The records speak for themselves, Fed is the GOAT (for now) and Nole is currently the best player on the planet (for now). The rest is all just hype trying to prop up their fav.!
Tomorrows match? Yawn…Nole in 2.


BBB Says:

How do you know that Federer at his prime would have beaten Nole in 2011?

Doesn’t Federer himself say he’s playing better now than he was a decade ago?

People dearly wish to believe there’s an objective way to determine GOAT, and there isn’t. If you want to believe Federer is GOAT, go for it. If you want to believe it’s Laver, go for it. If you want to believe it’s the Tooth Fairy, go for it.


Wog Boy Says:

That is the point of those rose colored glass wearers of St Roger worshippers, to tell us that Roger in his prime is better than Nole in his prime anytime anywhere, and thanks to their leader and head keeper of the legacy of St Roger, also the most knowledgeable poster on TX who plays tennis too, we know the “truth”..never mind that Nole was beating the GOAT anytime anywhere since he was tennis puppy, having better h2h stats, not just in their matches generally, but GS, finals etc..where really matters in two man rivalry.
Captain America came in to save a day..for Daniel.


skeezer Says:

“If you want to believe it’s Laver..”
Ask Laver who he thinks is the GOAT. Is anybody here more qualified? Nope.
This has been ducussed over and over like when Rafa was dominating, but the story remains the same. Go get a lot more Slams.


chrisford1 Says:

From “Sportrageous”

The biggest shocker in tennis happened on Thursday as Rafael Nadal announced his retirement from the sport citing the domination of World No. 1 Novak Djokovic as the main reason for him quitting tennis. Nadal also added in the press conference that rival Roger Federer should follow him to retirement since it is pointless to continue playing tennis as the Serbian will win all the majors tournament in the coming years anyway.

“I have struggled mentally the past years and tried to recover in recent tournaments. I played well in some tournaments but always was short of the goal. Watching Novak Djokovic at the Miami Open made me realize that even if I get back to being a top player it’s still not enough as he is playing like no one can beat him. I don’t think I can beat him ever,” Nadal stated via a press conference on Thursday.

Rafael Nadal also has an advice for rival Roger Federer, the current World No. 3.

“I think Roger should also retire soon and follow me. He’s still playing well but just like me it’s just not enough against Novak. Roger will make the semis or finals of the tournaments but he’s always going to get beat by Novak. It’s pointless so just enjoy your time with your family,” Nadal added
Roger Federer holds the record for all-time Grand Slam titles with 17 majors championships while Rafael Nadal has 14 and Novak Djokovic has 11. Djokovic is pegged to break Federer’s record in the next few years.


gee Says:

Peak Fed had to escape 3 match points at Masters Cup and in 2 Wimbledon finals vs. the one-dimensional, fake McEnroe, and big butted Roddick.
Roddick sure isn’t Djoker or Federer. No wonder the poser Roddick is so bitter today! He had to quit tennis to avoid losing to Nole & beating “god GOAT Fed”.


BBB Says:

If you want to use slams as your sole metric, then fine. But I don’t think the 11th commandment is that the total number of slams (majors, really) determines GOAT. Masters, Davis Cup etc are also relevant, to those who think they’re relevant.

And Laver is, like everyone else, entitled to his opinion. Which is what it is – opinion.


chrisford1 Says:

Skeezer – “Ask Laver who he thinks is the GOAT. Is anybody here more qualified? Nope.
This has been ducussed over and over like when Rafa was dominating, but the story remains the same. Go get a lot more Slams.”

1. Rod Laver is a humble, modest man. He never talks about how he must be the Super-GOAT if you go on “Slamcounting” for the 6-7 year time he was banned from those events between his 2 Grand Slams. Focs only on Slams and the origin of the Slamcount argument seems to be a late 80s development

2. And all sorts of stuff has been discussed over and over, both Slamcount IS EVERYTHING argument, and the more inclusive ELO, Masters wins, world championships, “best at” things, the quality of competition each year, Streaks. I think the more balanced career achievements and dominance evaluation will win out over the simplistic “Slamcount” metric as the future standard we assess players by.

The players up to the 80s would skip Slams, and no one talked about The Greatest. It sort of bled over into tennis when Mohammed Ali’s “I’m the Greatest of All Time” became a theme on American talk radio, as applied to all sports. Nothing better for debating fans and ratings than an endless argument that sucks fans in.
Federer is a true great player, not “chopped liver” as they say in New York. But he is not the only great player, and you cannot come up with a simple answer on why he is GOAT but the Spaniard that ended up dominating him is not. Or Laver’s case. Or Borg retiring at 26. Or all the Slams and other events John McEnroe won as the #1 Doubles Player.


Daniel Says:

We don’t know if one in their rime is better than the other,
what I am saying is that their prime periods is pretty clear.

VP, Yes Nadal actually is the unluckiest of them all because he always had another player in his prime together with him, Fed in 2008-2010 and Djoko from 2011-2013.

But instead of proclaiming him GOAT you can ask another question, his prime wasn’t good enough to prevent another player to also win because he could never dominate on all surfaces. That’s why I think in the end, Fed and Djoko will be the 2 GOAT’s because they in their primes, for a period were able to complete dominate the tour, on all surfaces and prevent anybody else to contest and challenged them.

That’ why again I say I am very curious about Djoko and how long will he prevent anybody else from challenging him on his prime. Is not his fault that the other are not up to the task anymore.

Some say Wawa can challenge him due to 2 Slams win a and a few other five setters. Maybe from now on Djoko would have extra care with Wawa and not allow him to bother him anymore.

That is all part of greatness.

Had Nadal being better he could challenge Fed HC slams better and not lose to other players or get injured due to his style of play. He was beating Federer as he always did (superior HxH) bu wasn’t able to face him all the time in majors.

Djoko on the other hand, raise to occasion and faced Nadal in 4 consecutive major finals in 2011-2012 and was able to beat him 3 out of 4 in that period, shifting things. If Nadal was the true GOAT he would never allow that to happen, but his prime game and form on that period wasn’t enough to prevent Djoko.

See, in this case is pretty clear to see both player at their prime. and the Slam matches in 2011 to 2014 between tham were almost even: 4-3 to Nadal. players at their prime and Slam result almost the same (nadal wn 6, Djoko won 5).


J-Kath Says:

I don’t believe this – has someone got the date wrong? It is April 2 not April 1. GG and Okie…help, what is going on?


Daniel Says:

BBB, I also used Year End #1, which always coincide with the PRIME period of the players, wonder why?!?!?!!??!

Players at their prime are number 1and stay there the longer,more than their rivals, because they win more, more majors and more important titles, and probably also beat their rivals more.


Wog Boy Says:

“We don’t know if one in their rime is better than the other,
what I am saying is that their prime periods is pretty clear.”

Firstly, it is not “we don’t know” but “I don’t know”, since you are the one that claims that they never met in their prime, therefore it is your opinion not ours, unless you believe your opinion is only one that matters.


Daniel Says:

Also, is not wanting to believe, the records and stats support Fed’s case more than anybody else.

If Djoko happens to overtake him I have no problem at all, as Dave mentioned before, Year End #1, WTF, Dojo is just 1 short ( and 2 Year End short of Sampras. Masters he already has more and tomorrow leader alone.
Number 1 weeks improving by the day, and if he keeps his pace of Slams wins he will get closer and closer.

Djoko[s case is pretty more soda, even now than Nadal’s claim (based mainly on HxH) than other stats. Nadal dominated clay, period, was able to extend to other surfaces but pretty soon Djoko will have more Slams than him outside clay, so, Nadal won’t even be the second best outside his clay dominance and he is not top 3 or 5 in several other categories.

Fed is at the top 3-5 in every single stat bar RG titles, Djoko is also getting there as well and will have similar numbers to Fed, either 1 or 2 RG titles and more of the others Slams.


skeezer Says:

“And Laver is, like everyone else, entitled to his opinion. Which is what it is – opinion.”
Ok. Lets just say a Tennis Patriarch of the game has more of a qualifying opinion that anyone here, yours truly included.

Nole is a great player, already one of the all time greats, but he is not the best player whoever picked up a tennis racquet….yet. You gals just need to sit back and enjoy his moments for now, he is dominating with no one really left in the field to compete with.

Regarding Prime, this is another lost cause argument along with H2H. The player can only do with what is in front of him and the players that are available. He plays against a field of players in a draw, not Murray Fed Rafa etc. Only IF they get through a draw do they have a chance to meet. Also, Nole was winning slams with Fedal around, now he is dominating without them around in what some can call a weak field. So? Who’s fault is that? And do you fault Nole? No, he is just playing who is in front of him every round of every tournament, just like anyone else.
In the end, all time records, starting with Slams is what matters, the other stuff is nose picking arguments.


Daniel Says:

So, when do you guys think Roger prime ended, if that ever happen to you at all?!

Because in 2011 and 2012 Fed and Djoko played 5 times in majors and the record is 3-2 to Djoko,

Djoko only dominated the Slam records due to his las 3 wins which was when Fed was 32, 33 and 34.
So if you consider that Pirme Federer year in order for Djoko’s win to look better fine, your opinion Mine is that Fed had no business winning their matches at all to begin with. To me him at 32+ facing a in his rime 26-28 yld is never a fare task.

In 2011 and 2012 when TO ME, Fed was already outside his rime (2011, one of his worst years to date and in that period he still was able to beat an in prime Djoko twice in Slams.

- From 2006 to 2010 (Fed’s prime and DJoko developing)
They played 19 times: 42% of their matches

Federer: 13
Djokovic: 6
Fed’s twice more, winning 2 out of 3

- From 2011 to now they (Djoko’s peak years Fed out)
The played 26 times: 48% of their total matches

Federer: 9
Djokovic: 17
Djoko winning twice more, winning 2 out of 3

But notice that Djoko played Fed in his prime more than Fed played him in his hence Djoko is leading now by 1 match and will soon increase the lead.

As expected for the younger player.

The HxH would only remain close had Federer played him the same amount of time in his prime. If they plays 5 or more matches in the future, Djoko’s number will be getting better and better.

Hope it helps clarify my point of view.


Daniel Says:

Question do everybody, When do you think Fed’s prime began and ended of you think it ended at all

And the same question for Nadal

And when do you consider Djoko’s prime begin, because it certainly didn’tt end?:-)

Even if we extrapolate and consider prime from first Slam won to last, Fed would have ended in 2012 and I already shoed that in 2011 and 2012 if you still considered that prime Fed, they were even, actually, Fed superior HxH and they tied with Slam matches won by each side.

Also b this standard Djoko’s prime would look worse because in 2208 to 2010 he only won 1 Slam.


Wog Boy Says:

If it wasn’t for Andy’s failure protect his positive h2h in last two years, the GOAT would’ve had negative h2h with all his main rivals.


Wog Boy Says:

That brings another question, how an old player, out of his prime managed to beat player in his prime five times in a row?


kjb Says:

@Wogboy

Because Andy is not even close to the calibre of Fed/Novak/Rafa. I would pick Fed over Andy anywhere anytime even at this stage of their careers. Andys second serve is an absolute joke and he is not nearly aggresive enough.


Wog Boy Says:

Kjb,
Failed again, that Andy had positive h2h (11:9) during the GOAT’s prime! How did he manage to do that if he is such inferior player?


kjb Says:

@Wogboy

Its all about matchups man! Andy is a retriever just like Rafa, Fed gets frustrated, his backhand breaks down, he goes for too much. Do you even watch tennis?


Wog Boy Says:

kjb,

No, I don’t watch tennis, can you explain to me what’s that?


kjb Says:

@Wog Boy

And 2 slams compared to 17 – 14 – 11 means he is definetely an inferior player.


Wog Boy Says:

But yet that inferior player was beating the GOAT from the get go, by mid 2009 he was 6:2 agains prime Roger. It is really strange that the GOAT has so many bad match ups, Rafa, Andy, Nole (as of lately..

BTW, I am still waiting for you to explain to me what tennis is, do you put that on bread for morning tea?


AndyMira Says:

CF1@ 5.51pm..very funnnyyy!


kjb Says:

@Wogboy

Failed again, Fed has more hardware than anyone. Call me when Andy gets to double digit slams and then we can talk. And since 2009 Fed has 4 slams compared to Andys 2 so……………


Markus Says:

Until somebody surpasses Roger’s slam record, people will find ways to diminish his achievements, hence these concocted scenarios of weak era and prime years, etc, etc. People do that because they know whoever they root for is not greater than Roger. Until that time comes when somebody else gets to 18, all the Federer fans can rest easy and brush of all these theories as nothing more than sour grapes. Catch him if you can!


mat4 Says:

@Daniel:

About prime, Federer, etc.

It’s very difficult to assess. I watched and compared his performance in 2007, 2011, 2014, e.g., mostly against Djokovic and Nadal.

He has certainly lost some of his arm speed in 2014. I can’t really say for 2011, although I watched in slower speed long sequences. Technically, he’s better now: his backhand and his volleying are better, and, while I can’t affirm it, it seems he serves a bit better.

But tennis has evolved. It was a “trivalry” that forced players to improve all the time. Djokovic, in 2001, didn’t move as efficiently as he does today.

Then, look at the serve. I don’t have stats, but I am sure that spots are chosen differently now by the top players. Federer’s and Djokovic’s spot selection is almost the same.

Everything I write about Federer here apply also to Djokovic. He’s already declining, but he follows the path of technical improvements to compensate.

We will never know what the result would be had they been the same age. I wrote that, from summer 2007 to fall 2011 the H2H was 10-10 (or 10-9 if you want), with many close matches.

IMHO, if Novak wins thee slams this year, I will ranked them as the best two players I have ever watched. Different, unique, but very alike in many aspects. Some records are product of luck, but the dominance, the longevity, the intelligence on the court, the adaptability they showed are unseen so far in the Open Era.


mat4 Says:

@Daniel:

This will to improve and change is what make them unique, but also similar.

But fortune, luck was vastly different in their careers: Fed met Annacone — the man behind his actual game — too late. He changed racquet too late. He hurt his back when he was ready gamewise, and lost another precious year. And, the most important thing was that his first coach didn’t learn him to hit properly his backhand — he doesn’t use hips — something that will cost him dearly.

Novak, on the other side, didn’t learn to hit his FH at hip level, but at chest level — the consequences were terrible for years. Then, he lost two years changing racquets and coaches. He lost his grand father before the most important tournament in his life. He met Becker too late. Etc.

They fought like devils to dominate the tour, but otherwise, their careers, in a changing tennis world, were irregular sequences of successes and errors.


Daniel Says:

Federer being GOAT NOW has nothing to do with Murray at one point having a positive HxH against him, or Nadal (mainly on clay) or Djoko now with 1 plus match. All of them are talented 5-6 younger players who were the only ones able to “match” Roger.

His GOAThood is regarding all his achievement, longevity, streaks and being in top 3 of all parameter of greatness:

- Total Slam(1st)
- Year End #1 (2nd)
- Total weeks as #1 (1st)
- Master title (3rd)
- Year End Championship (1st)
- All time Total titles (3rd)

Consistenty records
- Slam finals (1st)
- Slam final streak (1st)
- Slam Semi-final streak (1st)
- Slam Quarter finals streak (1st)
- Total Slam semis (1st)
- Total Slam Quartes (1st)

And the wiki list goes on and on and on.

Even HxH wise the one he has with Novak is minus 1 match, Murray, so far superior; the only loopsided is with Nadal, and even that one is basically a 2-1 HxH in favor of Nadal, every 3 times they played, Nadal won 2.
And mostly because Fed in his prime was the only player who could challenge Nadal on clay in all those finals. More than half their matches were on clay where Nadal dominates everybody 10-1 or worst. Only Now that a certain Djokovic was able to decrease the rate Nadal had on clay HxH against everybody else.

You can count in 1 hand how many players beat Nadal 3 or more times in clay.,

Yes, Nadal have more wins over Fed in other Slams and equal on surfaces, but what really makes the HxH lopsided is clay. 4-2 in AO-Wimby is hardly a dominance (again, the 2-1 ratio due to bad match up).


mat4 Says:

Finally, they both had to fight a terrible foe on his one turf: Rafael Nadal. A short analysis of the surfaces shows that, in his 23-11 H2H against Roger, Rafa played 23 times on slow, high bouncing courts.

Fed faced him with his small racquet, and his elegant, but ineffective one hander, Novak with his nose deviation and his allergies.

It had a tremendous impact on both career, but eventually Novak managed to break Rafa’s self confidence — let’s make no mistake, Novak was the one that did it — because he was good enough on Rafa’s turf.


chrisford1 Says:

Comments:

1. Markus, so you are saying there is no change to the level of competition in sport at different times?? All concocted in the minds of deluded athletes and fans? So any strong or weak era argument in any sport is invalid?
The reason why the US woman’s soccer team has more trophies than the men is women’s soccer is far less competitive than the men’s sport across all nations. Only a few nations take woman’s soccer seriously. And why aren’t US men more competitive in tennis after Sampras and Agassi and Courier, Todd Martin and Michael Chang left? (Chang was a top 10 player well into the 90s.) Could it be there is a waxing and waning?

2. On the talk of the Agassi Factor – Of relevance to prospects of Djokovic’s longevity is he missed 2 years of tennis development due to war and it’s impact on his family and Serb federations ability to sponsor him. He may have 2 extra years in the tank if the Agassi Factor is to be believed.
PS – Those two years of missed development meant he was about another year behind Rafa when he came up, added to Rafa’s 1 year older – 2 years – Nole caught up by cutting corners. It is also why Djokovic had bad net and overhead smash skills – he cut out doubles play to catch up with the top singles players, make up for those two lost years. So he was only 2 years behind Nadal as a player by 2007 in skillsets plus the confidence and mental toughness. He caught up to Nadal in 2011.

3. In the next few years, at almost every event, Novak will pass some mark held by the 8 or so other true great players. Sometimes becoming the “best ever”. He wins Miami, he will pass Rafa as the most Masters 1000 winners of all time, Fed in career earnings, and has already tied Lendl Open Era record by reaching the Finals in 18 consecutive big events he played in. (Masters, YEC Slams, Olympics, DC Final in that category of ‘big events).

4. As a Djokovic fan, I say it would be a pity though to put on blinders and have all eyes focused only on Nole. All too many more fine tennis players with games that thrill fans, that have A-level character and temperament, and players with compelling narratives, struggles, life stories, interesting personalities and off-court lives. Focus on Slamcount players only and ignoring the quality of a Nishikori-Monfils match makes for a stunted fan who cannot see the beautiful forest past half a dozen tall trees in front of them.


Daniel Says:

Agree mat4, tennis is always evolving, by this token present players will always be “better” than past players.

But we can only compares players career with how they perform through out, pre-prime, prime and post-prime, and their results overall and in this phase.

Ref Novak, when I posted previous stats before, we see that he hit his prime when he was 24 in 2011 due to the facts you said above.

He as a young prodigy, should have peaked earlier, on 2009 following his break through in 2008 AO, but several things happen and he regressed. He only reached a Slam final after his AO win in USO 2010, 11 Slams after, which is very odd. What is important is that he is compensating now.

Could be too late and in the end, those 2 and half years could cost him, or he will achieve everything he can and redevelop the game if he indeed dominate for next 3 years as some believe he can.

Only future will tell us. First things first, get that damn RG title in 2 months. Setp by step.


mat4 Says:

But the difference between Roger and Novak on one side, and Rafa on the other, is that Rafa was, from the beginning, the children of poly/luxilon strings, slow courts, high bounce and spin.

Roger and Novak had to learn it, or to fight it. Compare Fed, Novak 2007 with Fed, Novak today. It was a battle uphill to adapt or to overcome. Roger chose to overcome, Novak (who played pretty flat in 2007) to adapt.


Daniel Says:

The big difference is that a Monfils or Nishikori can’t win a Masters title, while Djoko will win his 28th tomorrow.

Djoko has no flaws, Nishikoris and Monfils have several. Djoko worked very hard to be at point of the maximum of his abilities (and he can still improve, volleys, transition, approach shots and serve a bit). Can’t seem having a better, return of serve, BH or FH. Right now this trinity is the most effective and perfect shots in tennis. His FH may not have explosiveness of some other players, but his BH and Return of serve are shots amongst the three best that had ever picked a tennis racquet.


mat4 Says:

@Daniel:

I wrote that I think that Fed was at this physical peak in 2004-7, and Novak 2010-2013. His stats in 2013 were the almost the same as in 2011. But in 2011 he won 3 slams, and in 2013 just one.


Daniel Says:

Yes, we have the effect f technology as well and Nadal crazy spin and being a left, which people who don’t play regularly complete overlook. That is a pain.

Playing a great left is kind of exert more mental effort from you, maybe that was why Federer succumbed so much, as if he lost patience because was a different ball game not played on his terms.

Djoko is more resilient in this department and understood and had the game tailored in a similar fashion to compete with Nadal.


BBB Says:

This is hilarious. People’s panties in a wad if you contend that the question of GOAT is a matter of opinion as opposed to a scientifically discernible thing. Why anyone would be so vested in whether some other dude is GOAT is beyond me.


Van Persie Says:

Exactly BBB, I just wanted to point out, that Nadal fans could be entitled to call Rafa the GOAT, Fed fans have their good reasons and if Nole wins FO, Nole fans could proclaim Nole as the GOAT (even if hes already the GOAT for the way he dominates now). Like you said, this GOAT debate makes no sense.


Van Persie Says:

Daniel, you contradict your self. A few days ago your problem was that Nole has no competitor in prime. When 2004-2007 was in discussion, then you decided, it shows that Fed and Nole are 2 GOATs for beeing able to take advantage on the lack of competition….no sense in that, sorry


George Says:

For me, the only undisputable thing in tennis is that Nadal is the best clay court player ever. Federer cant be GOAT due to 23:11. You can’t call GOAT someone who was owned by another player. If it was 5:0, you could say that this is a small number of matches making statistics invalid. However, 23:11 is totally enough to make statistically valid conclusion, which is that player that won 23 is a better player.


Daniel Says:

VP,

I said that they were too good and they dominate the field because there were no other player on their PRIME Together with them, not lack of competition. 2 different things. I am just assessing that now there is nobody else on their prime, because I can Consider Wawrinka and his play good for 2 tuners a year being prime. He just happens to have 2 great Slam runs and another MC run. Great form on those tourneys.

They didn’t allow anybody else during their prime to contest them, at leas for a period of that prime. Fed allowed Nadal to grow by losing too much to him on clay which than develop to other courts.

Djoko had to deal with Nadal early in his prime.
There is competition now, they are just not good enough to stop Novak and clearly there is nobody else on their absolute prime.

For example, Roddick was in his prime in 2003-2006 but that was;t even close to contest Federer because Fed didn’t allow it. Had Federer lost more to Roddick, his numbers would look great.

A player being on his prime is different than competition.


Green Lady Says:

George for me personally there is no GOAT, as theres too many different caveats to the topic to say anything for sure, but thats just my sappy POV,which will no doubt fall on deaf ears anyway ….


gee Says:

Roddick was only lucky, lazy, overweight and greedy.
Even more of a lucky verbally abusive clown than John McEnroe.
Worse than Pat McEnroe. Too bad tennis fans were so fed up with him, but obviously, Fed was his “friend”.

He certainly was no significant player. If he was great, he would’ve played more and lost 30 more matches to Novak.
He clearly didn’t play Fedal enough because his weak sauce would be laughed at and mocked from 2012-2020.


Green Lady Says:

Now why dont you tell us all how you really feel ? ….

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