Andre Agassi Ends Coaching Relationship With Novak Djokovic
by Tom Gainey | March 31st, 2018, 11:07 am
  • 125 Comments

Per an ESPN report last night, Andre Agassi has decided to end his partnership with Novak Djokovic.

The two first linked up last May, but after elbow problems and poor results, that relationship is over, according to Agassi’s former coach Darren Cahill who broke the news last night on ESPN.

“With only the best intentions I tried to help Novak. We far too often found ourselves agreeing to disagree. I wish him only the best moving forward,” Agassi said.

With all that’s happened, the fact Agassi doesn’t want to be in the Djokovic camp anymore is not a good sign for the Serb.

Djokovic, who has lost his last three matches, will now begin his clay season under the helm of Radek Stepanek.


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125 Comments for Andre Agassi Ends Coaching Relationship With Novak Djokovic

skeezer Says:

Agassi has been down the road of listening to a coach. He was told to quit eating big Macs and hit the gym. Novak doesn’t look like he is listening to anyone who can improve his tennis game. Too bad, for now, Agassi would have brought a lot of championship tennis experience and wisdom to Novaks game.


James Says:

Djokovic is not going to be able to come back like Fed did, or even like Nadal. He is a notch below these two. And almost 31.


Okiegal Says:

Maybe AA offered Novak a hit of the white stuff……sorry but I lost respect for him. He admitted to cocaine use in his book and I have yet to hear any negative comments about it from the tennis commentators…….why???


Telperion Says:

The partnership that Novak needs to end is the one that he started with the guru of peace and love. It has absolutely decimated him, in terms of mentality, body and tennis prowess. He’s lost his backhand, cannot withstand rallies, he looks famished…

I can’t understand why he is incapable of noticing that. If he ever wants to return at the peak of his level (or as close as he can) he needs to stop that bs as soon as possible. The clock is ticking… And it’s absolutely desperating for his fans.


skeezer Says:

AA sure had the tennis life ups and downs, but he overcame them. Its not about getting knocked down, Its about getting up. He turned out all right, imo he knows the game full circle.


Margot Says:

Agree with Skeeze. AA had a tough time, a bully of a father who forced him into tennis. He is on record as saying how much he hated the game at one stage.


Czarlazar Says:

James says Novak is “a notch below” Nadal and Federer, yet he has winning records against both. Before his descent into Pepe’s peace and love brigade, Djokovic was utterly dominant, a notch above everyone else. The question is, does he have the mental strength and desire for the game to come back? That’s something only he can answer but even if he’s done, he proved himself over and over to be one of the all time greats in tennis history — in the same category as Federer, Nadal, Sampras or anyone else who played the game.


Wog Boy Says:

“The partnership that Novak needs to end is the one that he started with the guru of peace and love.”

Agree but it is mission Impossible, in order to do that he has to end up his partnership with wife and that loser, parasite brother who was the one that brought Pepe in Nole’s life through back door, firstly introduced to Jelena in order to get to Novak and it started around three years ago, we just refused to see thet, though match against Vesely at MC 2016 was clear indication of what is to come, lucky he had from previous life some fuel left to win that elusive FO and that is when he went on the road with no return ticket.

I think it was BBB who ones said that Pepe is Nole’s Rasputin, cannot disagree with that.

Nole is “gotov”, finished, kaput, it was inside job, the only possible way to bring Nole down.

At first I felt sorry for him, but then after blaming his brother and wife, my youngest daughter told me “don’t blame them, I can’t stand them either, but it is Nole’s fault, he is a weak man for allowing that to happen” and she was right.


j-kath Says:

Gosh, Okie, I never knew Nole took cocaine – assuming this was before his tennis career otherwise he would have been penalised big time?????

WB: I have respect for what you and your daughter said – the whole mess must be very upsetting. But, if there’s a “but”
marriage is salutory for us all…sometimes, even small differences of opinion can raise the shackles….a bit of teasing or a joke is then the best medicine. Possibly Nole wants to please to a degree that is uncomfortable for him and in so doing affects his mental well-being?


Wog Boy Says:

JK,
Oki was talking about Agassi taking coke not Nole:)


j-kath Says:

Wog Boy

Of course — good – glad it wasn’t Nole.


Wog Boy Says:

As marriages that work and ones that don’t, I had experience with either, so won’t go deeper into that, it’s too personal.

I just think that it’s not fair towards his fans to keep repeating time and time again those same things about his tennis future, desire and so on when it is obvious that tennis has been put on the back burner in Djokovic family, they are making fools of his fans.

They used Mimai tournament as a family holiday time to enjoy their flashy penthouse on Atlantic Ocean, entire family (they had shopping spree last year buying apartments in NY and Miami), he doesn’t practice the way he used to…Agassi is clever man, he saw what’s going on and didn’t want to make fool of himself and to be part of that charade.
It’s been going on for too long, people don’t buy it any more, he repeats far to often his mantra “everything happens for a reason”, yes sure, but the reason is you not some imaginary reason.

If that makes you, Andy fans, feel better, you are the fairest fans when it comes to Nole and you genuinely express that and want him to overcome his demons, yes, they are self inflicted demons.


BBB Says:

This is bad news indeed. Agassi seemed intellectually suited to Nole.

I haven’t seen the Guru in Nole’s box recently. I was hoping it was a sign they’d split.

Maybe Boris will come back….


Wog Boy Says:

Nope, he is still around, just staying away from the spotlight, he is like a boa constrictor, squeezing the soul ..and money out from his victims, this what he had to say about us criticizing Nole back in December:

“Instead of being looked up to for setting an example, Djokovic is being criticised because he is walking on the path of love,” Imaz told Spanish newspaper El Pais.

He is relentless with his BS, how can anyone in his right mind listen to him is beyond me.


Markus Says:

After reading Wog Boy’s posts, I decided to read up on Pepe Imaz. I couldn’t believe how Novak could have fallen into this guy’s trap. Pepe seems to have corraled the whole family. For Nole to extricate himself from his grip, he may have to renounce his family. Nole is trapped.


Markus Says:

Now I understand why Nole keeps hugging his opponents at the end of each match. It’s Pepe’s teaching.He advocates long hugs.


Okiegal Says:

@JK……Wog Boy is right…… I was referring to Andre…..


Willow Says:

Sorry to hear this, moving forward, wishing Novak all the best, its hard to see a great champion falling away like this ….


BBB Says:

WB, I can’t remember if I was the one who linked him to Rasputin, but I hope so lol. If I did, it’s because he may be adept at exploiting pain.

I remain struck that after winning the French Nole’s speech mentioned the sacrifices everyone has made to help him achieve that goal. If his brother was suicidal around the same time, then it’s not hard to see how conditions are ripe for a parasite to move right in and exploit the turmoil. And good luck getting rid of him.

I won’t criticize Djokovic if his priority is his family over tennis. I just hope someone with his intelligence and wisdom can extricate himself.

On the other hand, I’ve never thought being intelligent was a particularly helpful thing for an athlete.


Margot Says:

Lol BBB at your last sentence! I’m not saying a word.
WB: I’ve always admired Nole for taking it to Fedal, when Andy just couldn’t. It’s horrible to see him so bewildered and dejected on court. I just hope he wakes up soon.


Okiegal Says:

Novak kick Pepe to the curb……His game started going downhill with the “boob” toss………I can’t believe some really good close friend didn’t tell him how stupid that looked and to knock it off. I was hoping he’d stopped doing it but in one of his match wins I noticed he still did it……Well he’s in his own head now…….. Been through that before as a fan…….and guess who caused it?? The Djoker…….


Humble Rafa Says:

According to Pepe, long hugs don’t always lead to children but always leads to internal peace. Egg Lover is all about peace. Tennis just another human endeavor to boost your ego, according to Pepe.


Humble Rafa Says:

On the other hand, I’ve never thought being intelligent was a particularly helpful thing for an athlete.

Lot of truth to that. Most don’t complete high school and cannot read or write very well. As a result, they can’t save or invest their money on their own and get taken advantage of. Perennial choker and Wimbledon champion Navotna died with very little wealth. It happens to a lot of people.

Agassi’s (aka American Doper) failed 7th grade and didn’t step inside a school to learn again (to his credit, he is helping other kids learn).


Margot Says:

^ HR you have become an wise guru suddenly. Have you been taking lessons from Pepe?


BBB Says:

I distinguish between formal education and intelligence.


j-kath Says:

Oh gee Margot – thanks for the giggle…I nearly spilled my hard earned cocktail.


Margot Says:

:) Kath.


Wog Boy Says:

Ladies, thanks for the wise inputs.

It is strange that Nole himself didn’t come out to say something about Agassi leaving him, that’s third coach that left him in just over one year, wake up Nole, if it is not too late, which I think it is…sadly.

I’ll leave you now, since I just popped in to check how my “friends” are coping with their man being dumped by #175 qualifier , I know you haven’t missed me anyway:)

I don’t watch tennis since Roofgate scandal nor I was visiting TX or any other thennis site. The last match I saw was Rafa vs Marin and I intend to keep it that way.

I was getting ready to watch AO final this year when I saw the news on TV that sunday, Cilic was practicing on the court #xyx and profoundly sweating on the hot Melbourne day, then they show the other one practicing, on his request, without public, in MCA with closed roof and AC on, I knew immediately that they are going to close the roof even they didn’t have one single reason for that expect to give every possible advantage to him, he knew they are going to close the roof so accordingly decided to practices in excatly the same condition that will be that evening, even pretending next day that he was surprised, the only surprised one was stupid Cilic.

That was the last straw, I called my wife and told her to get ready, I am taking her for dinner and than for to the concert of Rade Serbedzija (you know, Serbian dude that plays bad Russians in Hollywood movies) he is great ballads singer and recite poems perfectly, it happens that he had a show in Sydney.
She looked at me in disbelief “It is AO final tonight?”, I just told her “I am not watcing tennis anymore..for time being.”
She was more than happy to obey, doesn’t like tennis, we enjoyed evening thoroughly …C U around AO 2019…if I change my mind and decide to watch tennis again.

BTW, this is Rade Serbedzije, you will recognize him with hat driving the boat, enjoy the song, you will, I know:

https://youtu.be/12h0skjz024

Ta-ta


Okiegal Says:

@Wog Boy…..I know you are disappointed and disgusted regarding the tennis player you have followed so long. I agree he needs to do something different quickly. I still have faith that he still has some great tennis in him……. he’s just got to overcome his demons. I’m sorry you are having to go through this as you have lots of time invested in “a” favorite player. I still enjoy your comments and your knowledge of the sport of tennis. Please pop in and out…….you always have good reads…..Sincerely…….your TX friend, Okie!


skeezer Says:

^Sour grapes never turns sweet, once sour always sour.

“Cilic was practicing on the court #xyx..”
Cilic was offered to practice indoors, he declined.

Stick to your Novak stories, you seemed well informed on those.


skeezer Says:

^for 7:41 post


Markus Says:

It must hurt when your idol is on a free fall and the player you hate the most keeps winning more. The despair is totally understandable.


AndyMira Says:

Okie 8:19pm…Yeah!..Agree with u ma’am!…Gonna miss WB’s comments too!…He’s one of the rare Novak fans who’s always have a good words about our Rafa…Always enjoy his non tennis topics that he brought to us here…So,in order to bring WB to TX once again…let’s hope Nole will find his mojo soon…C’mon Nole ole ole!!


Humble Rafa Says:

Some posters disappear when their star starts losing. It keeps their head clear. Some go to torture their cats. Everyone has their own way of managing stress.


skeezer Says:

HR,
You and Pepe must be tight.


shamboozie Says:

Wow Boy should consult with Pepe. He seemed to be very disturbed. Shame.


j-kath Says:

Wog Boy:

Ditto to Okiegal & AndyMira comments.

Re: the Rade Serbedzije concert I’m jealous – I wanted – so badly – to go to the SHENYUM Spectacular at the Festival Theatre Edinburgh next month, but got US friends arriving at that time – and there’s no tickets left.

As for Nole – he’s definitely returning – but how far he’ll go is far from clear. Same applies to Andy with his “swinging” hip….meanwhile Andy’s busy coaching a young Brit. whose name I’ve forgotten.

A bientot!


Van Persie Says:

WB,

I came here pretty late, a few months before Nole got the French. Was a pleasure to chat with you :)
Am disappointed also with Novak lately, but , he offered me much joy. He is my most successful favorite(from all sports) and he is for me the GOAT in tennis, dont’care what others have to say. I have my good arguments for that:)

Am not sure, Novak really want’s to “come back”… and I will leave him alone.
Who knows, maybe he will surprise us, but no more expectations from my side.

Take care! ;)


Humble Rafa Says:

HR,
You and Pepe must be tight.

I follow those idiots so I know exactly I need to stay clear of. I have been lucky to have wise people like Uncle Toni to guide me.


Van Persie Says:

One last thing regarding Agassi: he was from the beginning not very sure, if he wanted to coach Djoko or no: hence he did this “pro bono”.
It was expected, Djokovic as 12 time GS champion and 30 years old man with a family, would not be that type of “obedient student’, who would follow Agassi’s advises sent “via phone”. With Agassi or without Agassi, Djoko is the same.


Amit Says:

Novak has lost his mind! He wouldnt be a disciple of Pepe otherwise! Not that Djokovic would have floored this Fed in AO of last 2 years anyway, but at least he would have got a set probably for himself.. Federer of 2017 AO/WIM was too strong for anybody anyway… its one thing to beat a federer or even rafa playing average and just another thing to beat a confident Rafa or Fed.. Novak hasnt that often beaten a in-form Fedal anyway… Wins are wins but Novak is no Fedal either.. #PeaceNonPepeStyle


Amit Says:

Novak aint too bad though, I would give him that! At times he has beaten a good Rafa/Fed too… 😉


the_mind_reels Says:

The following might not jive with as many people’s opinions, but I never really thought the Agassi partnership, if you can even call it that, was good for Djokovic. Becker (for example) looks like someone who’s going to whip a player into shape and get them laser-focused; Agassi…not so much, at least to me. The fact that Agassi got his life together in turned his tennis career around is noteworthy, but given his own very famous hatred for playing the sport, I can’t see what advice he’d have for a guy whose demons seem a bit different.

The fact that Agassi was doing it pro bono feels like an implicit way not to commit yourself 100%. And didn’t he almost not make the trip down to Melbourne because of some dumb snowboarding accident? C’mon. If Djokovic is looking for a serious reboot, he needs someone really committed to him, and that person should be on the payroll.


BBB Says:

Interesting points, mind. It seems as though Djoker is going through an existential crisis, and as Agassi also went through one and emerged as a stronger player, I thought the relationship was a good idea.


Van Persie Says:

Yes, Tmr, totally agree with you. Was a bit surpriset today to read, Cahill explaining the reason for Agassi leaving the Novak team: Novak was not very commited….and Agassi was, really?
Come on, Cahill could have shut up. Djoko is not Halep.
Agassi could have skipped the part with the part with the desagreements. Djoko has already enough sh*t with the media. Totally get Djoko, why he does not say a thing here. Expected more from Agassi, really…


Van Persie Says:

Can understand Becker expressing himself in public after 3 successful years with Djoko. Becker was commited! But Agassi?…10 months and 6 if them with Djoko on break…awesome


Margot Says:

Totally agree with VP. Can’t think why Cahill is “explaining” Agassi’s decision. Has Agassi suddenly lost the power of speech. This is the kind of thing Johnny Mac does, surprised at Cahill. The arrangement seemed very informal to me anyway.


Daniel Says:

Agree VP,

It was a short partnership. They don’t owe media any explanation other than just a formal announcement and thats it.


j-kath Says:

I understood that the original agreement re. Nole and Agassi was: Agassi’s expenses paid and that the value of his time would be donated to one (or more) of Agassi’s charities. I recall an article when Agassi was said to have discussed it with Tennis Star WIFE and that was why she agreed that he should accept the proposal.


BBB Says:

These are good points about Agassi’s tweet. I wonder if Cahill thinks he’s helping Agassi given that they’re friends.


Czarlazar Says:

According to Amit: “Novak hasn’t that often beaten a in-form Fedal anyway…”
In fact, Djokovic has a winning H2H against both Federer (23-22) and Nadal (26-24). From 2011 to 2016, he played arguably the best tennis of anyone in history and utterly dominated the sport during the golden age of the Big 4. 11 Grand Slam titles in that half decade, a couple of dozen Masters 1000 titles — including six in one year! — and 223 weeks at number 1. Though he’s now in a bad place, let’s give the man his due as one of the greatest to have ever picked up a racket, at least the equal of the two men who most often get mentioned as GOATs by the fawning Western media.


Markus Says:

Yes, Djokovic is one of the greatest but no, he is not the equal of Federer and Nadal. Not yet, anyway. He is not even Sampras level yet. When you talk about the greatest ever, Djokovic may be mentioned but the discussion will be centered mainly on Federer and Nadal.


BBB Says:

Winning four majors in a row puts him in the discussion, IMO.


Czarlazar Says:

“…the discussion will be centered mainly on Federer and Nadal” — both of whom have losing records against Djokovic over 45 and 50 matches, respectively. Your argument is weak, Markus.


rognadfan Says:

Amit-
First, I think you know by now I am a Fed fan. But, with all due respect your post at 8:23am was clearly on the arrogant side of the isle (don’t take it as personal mate;)). Nole is one of the best in history. His relative place in the ranking of ‘the best ever’ might not be quite at the height of Fed and Rafa but he is pretty darn close.

Your contention that he has beaten in form Fed and Rafa only a few times is what I felt was a little arrogant (even though I like Fed and Rafa better than him). He has beaten both of them plenty of times when during their primes.

Nole has fulfilled his potential and now is one of the living legends of the game.
It’s just that right now he is in a tough road back.
(BTW all that blame to pepe on Nole being out of sorts is a lame excuse by some disillusioned fans trying give themselves some consolation). He was winning until 2015 well after pepe showed up in his camp). Nole is trying hard to be back at his best, it’s just not working at the moment. It’s never straight forward trying to come back after such a long layoff. Well, almost never). But I am pretty sure Nole will be back; he has plenty of time.

Last but not the least, Nole’s game is a lot more complete than Rafa’s in many ways. (Damn, can’t believe I could write some many good thing about the Djoker, that enough).

Compared to Fed game, though, here is how I put it- Fed’s best is the Mt.everest of tennis. No one else in history has been able to rise above 7000m.

Cheers!
Btw Czarlazar, Markus and BBB- great posts.


rognadfan Says:

Ok, the complement to Czarlazar post was for the one at 9:05 pm.
That one is clearly lame. Against Fed he was able to catch up in 2015. Do you really think that puts him above Fed?

Please come back and put forward that argument again when when turns 36 wins 7 more majors and spends a little more time as #1.


skeezer Says:

I think most would agree Fed has been “in form” the last year or two. Novak?


Van Persie Says:

Lol Margot,

Am sure that John Mac will not miss the occasion …but he is at least funnier :)
Becker will also have something to say. Surprised he’s quiet on this topic atm


Van Persie Says:

J-Kath,

Yep, forgot about the foundation thing and Steffi’s involvement.

I do not blame Agassi for leaving the team. If it’s not working, he does not have to stay. Am sure it’s better for both that way. I just did not like the tweet.


Van Persie Says:

Regarding “GOAT”-ness.

Am very proud of Novak, he has earned 11 GS in the most competitive ERA in tennis, accomplished NYCGS…so, enough for me, many other arguments, which were repeated over and over again here.

Rafa- and Rogerfans, have also their arguments for their fave.
Personally: I have always considered Roger more talented but Rafa a better player then Roger.
My father says: no one from the 3 above is like Great Borg. so all very subjective.

I will be out of this discussion now, as I really enjoy this period , where other players dare to win ;)


Okiegal Says:

@VP…..I loved Borg too…….and there again, a master of clay! I just can’t help myself, but I love dirty tennis! Also Borg wore short shorts……that style seems like centuries ago…..dang, I’m getting old…..😫😫😫


Markus Says:

Okie, you’re here! Sorry I gave you some puzzle about what I promised to do for you. Here’s a clue, many posts ago, you said you wanted a physiotherapist who is tall, dark and handsome. I said I do not meet your criteria but I could do something instead. I don’t renege on my promises so I have been doing it without fail.


Markus Says:

VP, I don’t mean to prolong the discussion but there is a difference between subjective and objective.

Subjective is why I like Federer and you like Djokovic while others like Nadal, etc., etc. Subjective is why we think our favorite is the best.

But when you talk about the greatest who ever played, subjectivity no longer holds, it becomes an objective assessment. It is a measure not of isolated instances but in the totality of a player’s accomplishments.


Okiegal Says:

@Markus……. Hey thanks for jogging my memory…….I do remember that conversation! Keep doing what you’re doing!! Lol


Van Persie Says:

Okie,

Yeah, truth is, the clay is the most demanding when it comes to athletic skills. Have great admiration for clay specialists :)
I have watched Borg vs McEnroe (2017) a few weeks ago. I am sure you would like it . Was pretty good. It is a movie about the beginning of their rivalry.

Markus,

With all the respect, please do not explain me the difference between subjective and objective. I know it :)

“But when you talk about the greatest who ever played, subjectivity no longer holds, it becomes an objective assessment”. ..I will disagree with that, because, when we have several parameters to take into consideration, and you will use the ones, which are putting your fave in a better light, you’re getting subjective. Simple as that.


Markus Says:

I’m glad you do, VP. End of discussion.


Markus Says:

Oh, no, from your last paragraph, you still don’t know how to apply the difference, VP. But I would not belabor that anymore.


Markus Says:

Subjective: I like Federer, he is the best. Or: I like Djokovic, he is the best.

Objective: Federer has 20 majors. Number 1 for 308.
Djokovic has 12 majors. Number 1 for 223 weeks.

Of course most people can subtract to figure out the difference. Subtraction, as we all know, is objective.


Van Persie Says:

^^ yeas, please do not belabor anymore…or if you do, try to use your own words :)


rognadfan Says:

Personally: I have always considered Roger more talented but Rafa a better player then Roger.

VP- I know that’s your personal view but I’d love to hear the argument for this statement. Objectively.

Personally, I consider Rafa’s game behind Nole’s mainly because, his FH is a very vulnerable shot, unlike Feds or even Nole’s. Noles BH is one of the best in history while Rafa’s is not, fair and simple.
Feds BH can’t be as lethal as theirs (that too is now agruable) but Fed’s finesse on the BH takes care of that. Rafa’s volley is better nole’s but for both Rafa and Nole’s that stat is pretty useless because they only come to the net only for the balls that even a semi-pro can put away, no offence (aka they don’t play many volleys so, jugging that is not really useful).

Yes Fed has talent, but what’s that got to do with being the best? I am sure Fed works as hard (if not harder) that anyone else out there.

It’s familier to another argument people make on the football world.
‘Messi is talent, Ronaldo is hardwork.’ That to me is a total horses.it. Until messi came along, I rememeber people crying how talented ronaldo was. Now all of a sudden he is second best and there is a new argument.

But the main point there too is that Messi works as hard as Ronaldo. I’d say Messi needs to work even harder, given his limiting size, to be able compete with taller and faster guys out there.

Sorry for digressing but seriously, I want to read how you reached that decision, objectively


skeezer Says:

Gonna stay out of this except for this, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know who the GOAT is. It is not a word argument.
#nowherecomesHR


Margot Says:

20 slams = fact
GOAT = opinion


Van Persie Says:

^^ Lol Margot,

Rognadafan,

1. Football: I prefer Neymar (subjectively). Got U there ;) I like how he dribbles. Don’t care much about the others 2

2. Rafa-Roger: I like Rafa’s FH DTL. During his golden age in tennis he could do wonders with his footwork, speed , (which is not the same now). against Fed. His Stamina was also better than Fed’s. Rafa lost in 2017 against fed, not only because Fed’s improved BH, Rafa lost because, I repeat: Rafa’s footwork, speed and stamina were no longer the same.

Let me say something nice about Fed, as you were also nice and complemented Nole: What I admire very much about Fed: he plays very smart, each point, each shot is calculated. He does not waste energy retrieving like the other 3 Greats, this is a bonus for him: he can play good tennis also at this age. He had a very constant career, that’s admirable, but an in best form Rafa has huge advantage over an in best form Fed. So: Rafa is better than Fed, for me at least, and the H2H shows it!

But you asked , why do I think Federer has more talent; all the shots and what he is doing on court, looks very natural. He has this finesse in shots, as you called it. That is raw talent: my pov.
When I look at Rafa it looks like he is working hard up there. I like to watch him on clay. Suits him

Objectively enough?;)

If you look at Dustin Brown, he has the same raw talent.


Van Persie Says:

^^ I did not mention Fed’s arsenal, as you did it well already with the above, ( for Rognadafan)


Van Persie Says:

P.S. In Football my faves are Arjen Robben (like the way he runs) and Ribery (funny dude)


Van Persie Says:

“Given these achievements, many players and analysts consider Federer the greatest tennis player of all time.[a]” from your Wikipedia link

Good point Skeezer: many consider! it is not: “he is the greatest of all times” and also not” all players and analysts consider him the greatest af all times”!…

so , as wise Margot told: GOAT= opinion


Van Persie Says:

Am out now, enough TX for me today.

Bye


Okiegal Says:

Van Persie says…..”So: Rafa is better than Fed, for me at least and the H2H shows it!”……I couldn’t agree with you more!! That was a great post VP!! Loved it!! ❤️❤️❤️


Okiegal Says:

VP don’t leave…..You are adding so much to the forum today…….


skeezer Says:

VP,
That particular link was for the facts(records), as stated, not opinions. Laver was an an example of one of the most qualified opinions on the planet.
Regardless, you have your opinion, I’ll respect that. But if you poll the planet I’ll wager you are in a tiny minority, not that these things will change your mind. You are too much in love with your fav, all good.


rognadfan Says:

VP – Ok. I don’t expect another post from you; hope I am wrong

First of Football. I like Neymar too but you know he is inferior to at least Messi. Neymar himself happily confesses that. Sorry if you didn’t know this. But I don’t care about the third guy that much.
Robben is great- I can see compatriotism there (based on your name, is it? But oh that Flop in the WC. I was done with him there). Ribery is funny for sure. I always find it hard to belive he is still out there kicking ass, not sure why I feel like he’s been there since the 90s (It’s just me).

Back to Tennis.
Rafa’s FH could do wonders and still does often. His FH dtl is accentuated a lot by him being a lefty though (not to diminish it, by saying that but still it’s the case). Fed-Rafa match up is an example. In fact, for Rafa that (dtl) is the easiest part when he plays Fed (cross court does spin did the heavy lifting).

Objectively though their matchup alone doesn’t make Rafa a better player. I know many like to use the H2H measure but that happened because Rafa is the best CC player ever and Fed is only may be ’5th (?)’best ever there; u get the point, and may refer it to my excuse. But that’s how it happened.

Overall, I find Fed’s game much better and more ‘universally effective’.

Raw talent of Brown? I am not sure, because I don’t find hiting riddiculous trick shots as a measure of great talent. Actually most tennis pros that have trained their entire lives can hit all kinds of trick shots.

You know very well tennis is a game of powerful rallies and consistency these days. I am not sure Brown has the talent to do that. So, Rafa is a lot more talented than Brown for me.

One thing I agree is may be Fed’s talent was developing such a technically accurate game that the strokes never fail.
But Rafa’s game is mostly like that too, in a different way, that’s talent to me.

But then, did Rafa work harder than Fed during his career because he was less talented?
Impossible to judge that.

No comment on stamina, coz I am a lefty and always like to run the hell like Rafa on court (makes me get the bashing- a lefty fed fan that wants to play like rafa, so there u go I have a very special soft spot for rafa).

Alright that’s enough for me too. Gotta get back to work!


rognadfan Says:

Sh.t! that was long.
Not writing a long post again for 2 months!


Willow Says:

Ive never cared or bought into all things GOAT, as there are too many different caveats, personally ive always loved the idea that we have a number of all time greats instead, the rest is all too self serving, still that JMO ….


Willow Says:

Greatest footballers Pele past, Messi present ….


rognadfan Says:

Willow,
Right on! on Footballers.
I also really don’t indulge in GOAT argument based on achievements.
Also love the fact that we’ve had multiple all time doing great things at the same time.

I simply think looking at the way someone have developed the game of tennis, Fed’s game is the best of all.

Again, many others would beg to differ, I doubt most of those would not be biased. But I am fine with it.


Willow Says:

Thanks Rogernad fan, its rare that people ever take any notice of my posts, never mind agree with them ;-)


BBB Says:

How many times did Federer hold all four majors?

I’m not saying that it’s the sole criterion for GOAT. I’m saying that you can choose your objective facts based on subjective criteria.

I am not troubled at all that many think Federer is the GOAT. Or that Nadal is the GOAT. Or that Borg is the GOAT. I don’t know why people are so obsessed with declaring that there can only be one answer. The GOAT debate would be interesting, instead of tedious, if people would quit acting like it’s the Hundred Year War and instead engage as if their whole identity didn’t depend on having everyone agree that their guy is GOAT.


Willow Says:

BBB well said ….


j-kath Says:

I think if you’re trying to establish Goat-ship you need to wait until:
(1) The age that Roger officially leaves competitive tennis…right now he has 5+ playing years success being measured against his closest competitors….thus the latter are automatically disadvantaged.
(2) So one can’t really pick periods during Roger’s partipation when he was on a superb high. His career should – in the fullness of time, be measured against the careers of close competitors…e.g. the most obvious are currently Rafa and Nole.
(3) We need to let any player vs Roger play their tennis until they also retire to properly measure levels of success.


Okiegal Says:

@rognadfan…….You’re gonna get fired if you continue to write long posts on company time!!😲😲
LOL!!


RZ Says:

VP – so one of your favorite footballers is not Van Persie? :-)


skeezer Says:

“…you need to wait..”
Heard this one before. Wait till when? Till someone reaches 20 Slams? Til someone beats weeks @ #1? Etc? Let’s just wait until someone 20 years from now reaches it…..maybe. Then we’ll talk?
He has built up a body of evidence to justify where he is at…..now.


skeezer Says:

BBB,
Curious, how do you think these arguments would hold up in a trial? Who is the GOAT? What would a jury of tennis peers conclude?


Okiegal Says:

@BBB ……2:34 …..good comment…….I concur……
@j-kath ….3:34……good comment……..I concur again……
Greatest of all time…… that’s just way overboard……. I mean who knows 50 yrs from now? Maybe greatest of his era? But then again, there’s that dastardly lopsided H2H…….ummm…..🤔🤔

Cheers! 🥂🤠


BBB Says:

A trial? M’dear, don’t you see how ridiculous you’re being by even floating the analogy? You’re proving my point….


skeezer Says:

“I’m saying that you can choose your objective facts based on subjective criteria.”
Who’s rules are those? Yours?
That is the problem isn’t it with some here? They choose there own set of facts, and ignore the rest. Alas, you have proven my point. If you look at ALL the evidence in its totality, well, ahem, there it is.


BBB Says:

I can tell when I’ve gotten under your skin when your spelling goes off.

Anyhoo, I’m not sure what point of yours I’ve proven, though I can appreciate that imitation is the highest form of flattery.

I’ve simply stated that facts are objective, but elevating some above others is where the subjectivity comes in. Which I followed up by pointing out that there are many different possibilities for GOAT. Odd that it’s apparently a controversial proposition.

“All the evidence in its totality,” aside from being redundant, doesn’t lead to a mathematical conclusion, no matter how much you wish it were so. To circle back to your trial analogy, you can have one set of facts, and 11 people come to one conclusion and the 12th comes to another. Or 10-2. Or 9-3. And so on.


skeezer Says:

Re: I was just asking you for a fun hypothetical based on your experience. You did not indulge, calling it ridiculous first, then going off on a spelling bee. But then you did chime in on it?
No problem, won’t ask again.


BBB Says:

If you meant it in fun, why didn’t you say as much before now? Instead, you responded by claiming I was making up my own rules.

That dog don’t hunt.


skeezer Says:

BBB,
Whatever. For some reason thought you would know it was a hypothetical. It was in a discussion. Like that would ever happen. Seems I have hit a nerve that could impact your favs greatness. I will digress and work on my spelling..,,


Van Persie Says:

Rognadfan,

Why would I not reply? was a reasonable conversation. Was just busy with personal staff in the afternoon and afterwards.

Football: I am sorry to disappoint, but I do not follow it much. Do not know many things about Neymar or the others. Was just more for fun. But had a weakness for Ribery and Robben watching them once in a while playing for Bayern. Funny duo….haha, Robben is an artist at floping . lol

The “Van Persie” moniker: well, I thought , I would need to be aggressive on Tennis X, so I choose a striker ;) Also: do not follow him much, but boy, does he look good

Ok, to tennis: have no problem if you disagree with me, was not my intention to convince you, I was right. Just gave you my arguments.

Yes, I find Fed is more talented due to his technical skills. I think you are born with that, I might be wrong. But it does not make him better.

I never understood why the ability of “grinding” is underestimated. It is a proof of good “engine” after all.
Fed might have the technical skills to accomplish continental rides, but Djokovic or Nadal could perform more transatlantic trips due to a better stamina ;) We know, Fed was not a fan of 5 setter .


Van Persie Says:

For me: Djokovic and Nadal were the best in this Era. Murray could have been aswell, but he laked the strong mentality for this, I think. Fed could not do very much , when those 2 were in best shape.
Kudos to Fed for the patience. He improved several aspects of his game( did not quit the game like Borg, when this started to lose and hated it) and knew, there will come a time, when the “transatlantic planes” might be broken and he should get another shot. Fed is a very speculative player. It is a quality.


Margot Says:

VP: so interesting this discussion, as you and I have been saying what we rate in players is so subjective and, I would say, transcends mere “facts”…;) eg I would rate Andy’s variety of shot at the top of the tree, together with his dogged determination to keep trying and trying, even when beaten so many times. He’s like that rubber, bouncing ball kid’s toy, that refused to stay down! Of course his ability to self-sacrifice, as someone on here put it, would not be on my list of attributes!


Van Persie Says:

Yes Margot, always envied Andy for the volleys and game at the net. He’s a maestro, when it comes to this and executes them with finesse. Djoko lacks those.


Van Persie Says:

I will leave Tennis X for now….a lot of emails at work expect to be answered, neglected some of them yesterday and have to catch up :D
See U later or tomorrow


j-kath Says:

Drones are helping to find endangered species….perhaps we can help by supplying a couple of names???????


AndyMira Says:

M!…U know one thing i do regret when it comes to Andy?His reluctance to combine aggressiveness & his superb defensive skills…If only he’s willing to do that more often,his body maybe not this broken…
And now,i also miss to watch him on court..just like i miss Rafa or Novak..


j-kath Says:

WogBoy/Van Persie
and others

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/tennis/_sto6700124/story.shtml

Djokovik has also parted company with his other coach!


j-kath Says:

P.S. “Radek”


AndyMira Says:

Oh wow!…Another shocker from Nole!…Anyway,all the best for him to keep continue finding the right coach& comeback stronger…Who knows,maybe he will achieve another 5 great years & added another 12??Ohohoho!..That’s sure will make Skeeze quiet for life!!Hahaha…


Van Persie Says:

Lol AM,

Perhaps we will get also the information via Tweeter, that the cleaning women left Djokovic.


skeezer Says:

Well to some their GOAT has got booted out in the first round the last two tournaments he tried to play, and now has had two coachs depart. Fantastic resume. Is he coming back too early?
April 15th he’ll get another chance to prove his greatness.
——
Margot to add he has a lot of creativity in his game.


AndyMira Says:

Oh VP!…Cleaning lady,coach,friends…if they’re not suits Nole..he can sack them anytime he want..To find a chemistry with someone is not easy..U have to keep on searching & be patient..i just hope,he will keep on trying & not give up…I start to miss his crazy sliding now…


rognadfan Says:

VP
Good post. Fair enough arguments for me.
It’s obvious we disagree on who’s game is the best, which is good, we need that for discussions like these.

I didn’t expect a reply because, I though you were leaving for work. Nothing else.

On Nole,
Only one thing, I hope he turns it around. It happens to athletes sometimes it clicks sometimes it doesn’t for no reason. Has happened to everyone.
Obviously he is trying to get back to best and it’s not working the way he planned. Good luck to him. But one thing I hate to see is many fans throwing all blame to Pepe. I don’t know why, to console themselves during these tough times?
No, it’s the injury hiatus that has thrown him off a little bit. That’s all.

I told myself not write long post for next month.
Long posts were the results of crazy set of deadlines, and email replies that I didn’t want to look at. But can’t procrastinate forever, can you?

So, that’s it for this one. I am going to sign off from this thread.

P.S.
Football follows, you like it did here, Even if you don’t follow it.
Its the king of all sports.


BBB Says:

skeezer, do you always just mimic the post you’re purportedly challenging? Surely you’re capable of some kind of original thinking?

As to hitting a nerve, what nerve? Unlike you, I’m capable of accepting that there are justifiable arguments that the guy I happen to like isn’t GOAT.


skeezer Says:

BBB,
Done. Peace out.


Czarlazar Says:

Back in with the old: Nole training with Vajda this weekend!

https://sport.blic.rs/tenis/povratak-novak-opet-sa-vajdom-video/f9jm91q


Chris Ford Says:

A little late to this between Easter, doing personal and business tax returns….but the tennis book is not closed on Novak, nor any of the other 4. Real analysis will be incomplete without some distance between their last match and writings of any autobiographies, biographies, the comparisons, the computer generated ratings. And maybe by that point a panel of AIs could review everything all career stats, have debate together, and talk about Best in Era, perhaps. Should take the AIs 5-10 minutes.

Even Best in Era is tough when Fed was 5 years before the others and came to for in a weak era where he collected 12 Majors in 5 years, 2 when Djokovic and Nadal took themselves down in the Madrid semi and were in bad shape for 6 months after, and Andy playing subpar in Major Finals.

Had they all started out together, I believe Rafa would have had the early lead, then Fed and Novak fighting to catch up. One would eventually pass Nadal as most accomplished, but I don’t know which. Most accomplished will probably include many factors besides Majors. And the magnitude of their weaknesses. Federers lack of heart when playing Nadal 2008 and after. Andy’s self-negativity shows and unwillingness to go on offense, go to the net. Nadal’s health, that 2/3rds of his wins are on clay, his OCD, his need to be coached from the stands. And some other amazing stuff it took a while to realize like his horrific indoors record and it costing Rafa from winning a single end of year Championship. Novak gets branded a head case, the ‘moody Serb”, his suckitude on overheads his only terrible thing in his tennis skillset. The worst for him would be a collapse concluding his career right after holding 4 Majors at the same time.


skeezer Says:

“..and came to for in a weak era ..”
Your AI’s will confirm “debunked” and “pwnd”. No such thing.


autoFilter Says:

tHe CuRsE oF tHe MaDrId SeMiS


Markus Says:

if, had it been, would have, maybe, perhaps: words used when something you wished to happen did not happen. Those are prefixes used by and attached to those who failed.


rognadfan Says:

The post at 1:01 am, every thing else is pretty good and insightful in that post but, a usual, subtle spite & envy towards fed inserted here and there. And, like every previous post, an attempt to belittle Fed’s achievements using ifs and elses.
The most ludicrous point of that post though is that the 3 set semi in madrid caused Nole and rafa to be out of game for 6 freaking months.

So, what about the 6 hour final in 2012 AO? and then what happened?They both must have been totally out of the game until 2013 AO right?

Oh yeah, both of them reached FO final, then Nole reached USO final. But I guess that counts as the impact of that AO final coz Nole only reached the finals didn’t win it all.

Everyone is biased towards a player but if you pretend to be fair towards at least try to do a good job of it.


j-kath Says:

Some newspapers trying to fill sports section with tennis reports are often hilariously ridiculous:

One nwsp. states:
“Roger Federer may have dominated tennis for the past 15 years, but he wouldn’t have had so much success without the guys lower down the rankings.” REALLY?

Another nwsp. responds with:
“Latest Roger Federer Shock”. “He spoke to his wife today”.

Goodness gracious me! I’m giggling and feeling sympathy for the poor guy at the same time.

I think Roger should collect all this non-news and keep an album – it would sell for a fortune a few years from now.


rognadfan Says:

hahhaahaha! Thanks jk for posting them.
It’s so pathetic that it makes you giggle.

Top story: Zverev Upends Federer, Will Face Dominant Djokovic For ATP Finals Title Sunday