Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic Have Qualified For The London ATP Finals

Rafa was the first to qualify which he did after the French Open. Why the ATP are only just announcing this fact is a bit of a mystery or maybe they just made a mistake which they won’t admit to as per several tweets out there especially by Ben Rothenberg.

July 14th, 2014 at 10:48 am

Didn’t they have some sort of special concession about GS winners qualifying even if they don’t end up in the top 8? (Not that it would necessarily apply as Wawrinka is likely to qualify regardless)

July 14th, 2014 at 11:14 am

I for one, am shocked. Nadal AND Djokovic in the season ending final? Wouldn’t have believed it unless it was put in writing.

July 14th, 2014 at 12:41 pm

Its the one thing i would love Rafa to win before he retires,but he always seems to run out of steam and unable to crack the case,hes been in the final twice,hopefully he will go one better and do it eventually,who knows,i always find it sad when a champion as great as Rafa doesnt get taken seriously for his achievements outside of clay for whatever reason?

July 14th, 2014 at 12:55 pm

@Chic

I don’t understand why he doesn’t either! He has done great things on all surfaces….Oh well……

July 14th, 2014 at 1:28 pm

Okiegal unfortunatly thats the way it is,and that is the way it always will be,anyone would think his career was one of an out and out failure,by the way people talk about him on this forum,its sad as a fan but there you go,nothing one can do about it?

July 14th, 2014 at 1:32 pm

Okiegal unfortunatly thats the way it is,and that is the way it always will be,anyone would think his career was one of an out and out failure,by the way people talk about him on this forum,its sad as a fan but there you go,nothing one can do about it?

July 14th, 2014 at 1:32 pm

Okiegal i left a post for you on the Maria bikini thread this morning,just letting ya know lol….

July 14th, 2014 at 1:35 pm

A few think Rafa is a GOAT contender. Alas, another reason he can never be. No WTF title in 10 qualifications.

July 14th, 2014 at 1:51 pm

Some of us are merely content with him been an all time great,for some of us thats good enough,but for the naysayers hes not even allowed that,some people will always pick holes in his achievements,se la vie….

July 14th, 2014 at 2:01 pm

Nadal’s problem at the O2 is that it’s indoor hard courts, which is his worst surface – he’s only won one title and been in a handful more finals, so historically the final month or so is his least successful period. In both if his Tour Finals final app appearances he has come up against players who play better than him indoors. It’s mainly because the heavy topspin Nadal puts on the ball isn’t as effective indoors, so is easier to neutralise. I would like to see Nadal win the Tour Finals as well, but I doubt it’ll happen.

July 14th, 2014 at 2:18 pm

And the so called Goat that is Mr Federer has not won a singles Gold. Golden Slam will never ever be achieved! Silver does not count! Doubles gold does not count!

July 14th, 2014 at 2:58 pm

Nadal is a great player on outdoor hard courts – just got GOAT level. He is clearly the clay GOAT.

If you look at the top 6 players in the open era by surface, perhaps it would be something like this:

Grass:
Federer, Sampras, Borg, Mcenroe, Becker, Edberg (in that order)

Hardcourts:
Federer, Lendl, Sampras, Connors, Djokovic, Agassi (in that order)

Clay:
Nadal, Borg, Lendl, Guga, Wilander, Federer (in that order)

It is clear that Nadal wouldn’t make the top 10 (certainly not top 6) on either hard courts or grass.

Federer is the only one who makes all 3 categories, with top in 2 of them. Sampras, Borg, Lendl make 2 out of the 3 categories.

If you add indoors (and count WTF), this become ever clearer.

Nadal has performed SO WELL on clay that it takes ALL his stats way higher. But really, he is the most one-dimensional relative to Federer, Sampras, Borg or Lendl.

Djokovic has the potential to join that group, if he can win the French a couple more slams.

Murray? He looks Wilander look like GOAT.

July 14th, 2014 at 3:00 pm

My first sentence should say “just NOT GOAT level”.

July 14th, 2014 at 3:00 pm

“A few think Rafa is a GOAT contender”

hahahaha. Understatement of the year!

“A few” should read “A lot” and delete “contender” for a more accurate statement.

Some people think if they chant the same myth over and over again, it will become real.

Murray, Djokovic, Agassi and Johnny Mac just to name “a few” who already put him as the undisputed GOAT.

Not everyone thinks Federer is GOAT. Please calm down and get used to it.

July 14th, 2014 at 3:12 pm

@Goatexpert
You present a factual justifiable case and agree. That is the point that is always brought up. Who is the best player on all surfaces?. Meanwhile, expect the usual baseless rant from his minions.
#Can’twinAWTF

July 14th, 2014 at 4:03 pm

How many Olympics has fed played in since the start of his career? Has he won a Singles Gold yet? NO!!
How many Olympics has Nadal played in since the start of his career? I think it was just the once in Beijing in 2008 and in his first attempt won the Singles Gold on HC. That is some feat!
Vamos Champ!

July 14th, 2014 at 4:12 pm

Basic question: technically speaking, Is indoor a surface or an environment ? Are there courts out there which use the material as the O2 court does, but are outdoors ? Secondly, is the material only usable in an indoor setting ?

July 14th, 2014 at 4:20 pm

i think nole can move to the top of the tap “career” performance index on hard courts. right now he sits below connors and lendl at 3rd. connors is first and fed is fourth. obviously they have played a lot more matches, so that affects the %, but nole’s numbers are very similar to lendl’s already (lendl: 394/83 – nole: 366/77) so he could move above him legitimately. same as sampras (he’s at 427/104); nole should pass his numbers before he hangs it up. as for others like fed, agassi and connors, it depends on nole’s longevity because all those guys had such long successful careers.

July 14th, 2014 at 5:24 pm

*tap = atp (spell-checker… grrr)

July 14th, 2014 at 5:25 pm

`Murray? He looks Wilander look like GOAT..`

jeez louise
Goat`expert` posts like a central american refugee stuck in limbo and in texas (which is worse?)
hahahahaha!

July 14th, 2014 at 7:15 pm

`Basic question: technically speaking, Is indoor a surface or an environment ?`

logically speaking (ahem);

a. Indoors is the environemnt
b. Hardcourt is the surface

Unavoidable conclusion on both really.

July 14th, 2014 at 7:17 pm

*environment lol

July 14th, 2014 at 7:18 pm

`Not everyone thinks Federer is GOAT. Please calm down and get used to it..`

No, no, no!
It’s `calm down please`
Not `Please calm down`
Thank you!

July 14th, 2014 at 7:22 pm

`Murray, Djokovic, Agassi and Johnny Mac just to name “a few” who already put him as the undisputed GOAT…`

yaaaawwwwnnnn!

July 14th, 2014 at 7:55 pm

Djokovic said Nadal was the greatest player ever in the same way Nadal said Federer is the `greatest player ever`.
ie for himself.
There is no greatest player ever anyway, too many question marks against the lot of them.
Sorry :)

July 14th, 2014 at 8:10 pm

“Djokovic said Nadal was the greatest player ever…..I agree with Joker. If you pinned Federer down…..he would agree too…..me thinks!!

July 14th, 2014 at 10:22 pm

@calmdownplease

I was being very specific about the court type. Is the indoor court more like say the Oz open court , or the US open court ?
In terms of material, is the court any different.

Indoor courts used to be carpet, but no idea what they are right now in O2. May be a genuine tennis expert can explain to the uneducated like me ?

July 15th, 2014 at 1:32 am

Rafa has multiple GS on all surfaces,he is the only top player to have that statistic,his numbers are not better than Rogers overall except clay,or Novak on HCs,and Sampras never won the French,so i would still take Rafas 14 as been better than Sampras,if one is going to say Rafa is one dimensional because most of his GS are on clay,then we could also say the same about Novak as most of his GS are on HCs,but why would we take out a legigamate surface,and we could also say Novak has 2 GS off HCs and Rafa has 5 GS off clay,but again why take out another legitamate surface,nobody calls Novak or Federer one dimensional and they shouldnt either because both are amazing players,but i dont understand why they say that about Rafa it seems a tad unfair,5 GS off clay is usually considered good enough for any other player but not for Rafa for whatever reason,not a rant Skeezer,but nothing you must agree theres nothing that ive said here thats not factually incorrect either????

July 15th, 2014 at 3:03 am

Rafa has multiple GS on all surfaces,he is the only top player to have that statistic,his numbers are not better than Rogers overall except clay,or Novak on HCs,and Sampras never won the French,so i would still take Rafas 14 as been better than Sampras,if one is going to say Rafa is one dimensional because most of his GS are on clay,then we could also say the same about Novak as most of his GS are on HCs,but why would we take out a legigamate surface,and we could also say Novak has 2 GS off HCs and Rafa has 5 GS off clay,but again why take out another legitamate surface,nobody calls Novak or Federer one dimensional and they shouldnt either because both are amazing players,but i dont understand why they say that about Rafa it seems a tad unfair,5 GS off clay is usually considered good enough for any other player but not for Rafa for whatever reason,not a rant Skeezer,but nothing you must agree theres nothing that ive said here thats not factually incorrect either????

July 15th, 2014 at 3:03 am

^Maybe Novak will surpass Rafa by winning 15 GS,im just wondering though if the majority of the GS are on the HCs,if he will also be regarded as a 1 dimensional failure then too^?

July 15th, 2014 at 3:26 am

Patson Says:
@calmdownplease

I was being very specific about the court type. Is the indoor court more like say the Oz open court , or the US open court ?
In terms of material, is the court any different.

Indoor courts used to be carpet, but no idea what they are right now in O2. May be a genuine tennis expert can explain to the uneducated like me ?

July 15th, 2014 at 1:32 am

Patson,

Am not a “genius tennis expert”, but having been to the O2 a number of times as well as a number of indoor courts around the world, I think all professional in door courts are made of Plexicushion; they just come in different colours. Am sure someone else here who actually plays the game, will confirm (or not?).

Still reading all there is to read out there about the Wimbledon Final and notice that James and others are lauding others as the GOAT.

http://www.tennisearth.com/news/tennisNews/Roger-Federer-is-the-Greatest-of-All-Time–Boris-Becker-410940.htm

“The youngest Wimbledon champion ever and the current coach of World No.1 Novak Djokovic, Boris Becker has said that Roger Federer’s remarkable comeback against the Serbinator in the recently concluded final at the All England Club showed that the Swiss is indeed the Greatest of All Time.”

“…With his comeback in the 4th set, he showed clearly why he deserves the G.O.A.T. status.”

Jane, I too believe that Novak could very easily surpass current players on hard courts. He is fantastic, in his prime, so it is not outside the realms of possibility.

Okiegal Says:
“Djokovic said Nadal was the greatest player ever…..I agree with Joker. If you pinned Federer down…..he would agree too…..me thinks!!

July 14th, 2014 at 10:22 pm

On clay Oki, no one will argue with you there. :)

July 15th, 2014 at 5:19 am

”A few think Rafa is a GOAT contender. Alas, another reason he can never be. No WTF title in 10 qualifications.”

you’re right, this proves he’s terrible indoors.
until you admit he’s made two finals there.
only federer and djokovic have made more finals there of the current crop.

and until you admit that you’re lying to distort nadal’s results. he hasn’t played 10 WTF, only QUALIFIED.
He’s only played SIX.

2 finals and 2 SF out of six tries is hardly a poor resume.

and unfortunately for you, GOAT status doesn’t rest on success at one pseudo-tournament, where you can take up to two losses and still win the thing, against someone who’s unbeaten into the final. yes that’s right, you can lose twice in the group stage and still get through and ‘win’. it’s not exactly the most merit-based tournament.

July 15th, 2014 at 5:42 am

Rafa might not be the GOAT and he probably never will be,but its always been enough for me thats hes considered an all time great,but for some hes not even allowed that luxury either?

July 15th, 2014 at 6:12 am

Hippy, for sure, Rafa is amongst the all time greats. The greatest clay courter ever.

roy Says:
”A few think Rafa is a GOAT contender. Alas, another reason he can never be. No WTF title in 10 qualifications.”

you’re right, this proves he’s terrible indoors.
until you admit he’s made two finals there.
only federer and djokovic have made more finals there of the current crop.

and until you admit that you’re lying to distort nadal’s results. he hasn’t played 10 WTF, only QUALIFIED.
He’s only played SIX.

2 finals and 2 SF out of six tries is hardly a poor resume.

and unfortunately for you, GOAT status doesn’t rest on success at one pseudo-tournament, where you can take up to two losses and still win the thing, against someone who’s unbeaten into the final. yes that’s right, you can lose twice in the group stage and still get through and ‘win’. it’s not exactly the most merit-based tournament.

July 15th, 2014 at 5:42 am,

Roy,

I take it you are responding to Skeezer’s post.

Don’t forget however that to play in this tournament, you are one of the best eight players in the world. So, I suppose, being World No. 1 (at that time), technically, you should beat them all. Having the round robin and being given another chance, would mean that Rafa had another crack at getting through, to say, “it’s not exactly the most merit-based tournament.” Would you be saying that if he had won, one or both of his Finals? I guess not.

There is no shame in the fact that he is not as good a hard court player as a clay court player. That doesn’t mean that one day he couldn’t win this tournament. He could. He just hasn’t so far.

July 15th, 2014 at 5:42 am,

July 15th, 2014 at 7:19 am

Madmax he doesnt get much credit for it though does he,multiple slams on all surfaces,when you win 5 GS off clay thats usually considered good enough for any other player,but not for Rafa for whatever reason??

July 15th, 2014 at 7:32 am

Well, there is an interesting discussion going on about the dismal performance of Rafa at the World Tour finals. That Rafa is yet to win the year ending event is indeed surprising. It is one glaring hole in his otherwise blemishless and stellar resume which has embedded his name in the pantheon of Greats. He has made two finals in this event and that is no small achievement. But for him to win this title, he needs some luck just like what Roger enjoyed at Rolland Garros when Rafa was eliminated early paving the way for his winning the title. Similarly, Rafa can win this event provided Novak is not in the finals. He is still 28 and has two good years left in him. There is still a chance and what he needs is a bit of luck to move things his way.

July 15th, 2014 at 7:48 am

Rafa has beaten Novak at the WTFs in 2010,but he lost to Roger in the final,likewise last year he beat Roger and lost to Novak in the final,i dont know if he will ever do it before he retires,same with Novak winning the FO,if these things are meant to happen then they will,if not then they wont,sometimes people are not meant to have everything,hey thats life as they say??

July 15th, 2014 at 7:55 am

To add Sampras ended his career without a FO too,yet doesnt seem to get crucified as much as Rafa does for having not won the WTF?

July 15th, 2014 at 7:57 am

@Chic 3:26

Excellent question…….but…..no he probably won’t. It is always Rafa didn’t do this or that…..however he did beat Federer more times than not…..and that is why he’s disliked so much. Die hard Fed fans have problems digesting that fact. Fed has accepted it, why can’t they??

#bringiton

July 15th, 2014 at 8:04 am

Instead of GOAT…..it should be GOTT, greatest of their time…..if there has to be the best player of all time. Who knows how the great players of then would have performed against the great players of now?? We will never know. The GOAT issue is a dead issue for me because there have been lots of great players to come down the pike, imo. Greatest of their time should cover it……GOTT!! With that title, couldn’t everyone be happy??

July 15th, 2014 at 8:12 am

Qualitatively speaking, not winning the WTF isn’t that different from say, not winning a particular Masters event. Yes the top 8 come and yes it is prestigious event yada yada yada but it’s always hard for me to get super-excited about it. Quantitatively, yes WTF has 1500 points while a Masters event has 1000 events. I guess that’s one of the reasons I’ve always looked at WTF as another top notch Masters event with a slightly different format. It’s a great tournament to win but it won’t be the deciding factor in crowning the imaginary GOAT some of us adhere to.

I guess if Nadal finished with the most number of Masters titles by a distance, then he sort of covers the WTF blemish on his resume. When it comes what defines a player’s legacy in tennis , it’s the majors.

Fed’s got 17 and his legacy is unmatchable … for now.

My two cents.

July 15th, 2014 at 8:13 am

Alison,

People are not meant to have everything in life. That is it

Well that is more a philosophical explanation of life. I still believe that Rafa has it in him to win this title. What he needs is a little bit of luck and a favourable section. Ofcourse, not winning this title is not going to diminish Rafa’s stature in any way and so there is less pressure on him in that way. It is not a Grand slam. Regarding his winning against Novak, well that was in the round robin stages. But forgive me for bringing in this and come up with an excuse which I have accused others, Novak had a big eye problem in that match physically. His eyes got strained with the mislocation of contact lenses and he just couldn’t play freely in that match. Not an excuse really, but just an explanation.

July 15th, 2014 at 8:22 am

Okiegal,

GOAT issue is a dead issue.

Exactly. You are reflecting my thoughts. There is no way to determine a GOAT. It just fits in well for academic debates. Nothing less, nothing more.

July 15th, 2014 at 8:24 am

calmdownplease Says:.
There is no greatest player ever anyway, too many question marks against the lot of them.

Uh, yeah…. that was my point. Glad you feel the same.

Like McEnroe and Agassi in particular, I used to think Federer was the GOAT up until about a year ago when Nadal, in my opinion, surpassed him overall all things considered.

It is just different opinions which some fail to comprehend.

If some consider Sampras, Laver, Borg or Federer to be the greatest, good on them. I can see the argument and respect it… and respectfully disagree.

Some are unable to do this which is what is so funny.

July 15th, 2014 at 8:25 am

Michael thanks,but thats the way i always look at these things anyway,if your meant to have it you will,and not the end of the world if you dont,same with Rafa and the WTF,i hope he does but im not going to cry if he doesnt,so im not holding my breath,and a agree about the whole GOAT issue too,i couldnt care less about it as theres too many different viarables,IMO its nice to talk about a number of all times greats instead,JMO anyway??

July 15th, 2014 at 8:51 am

roy,
“and until you admit that you’re lying to distort nadal’s results. he hasn’t played 10 WTF, only QUALIFIED.”
Just a question here, do you READ?
“No WTF title in 10 qualifications.”
—
“it’s not exactly the most merit-based tournament.”
Madmax answered that quite well, so not going to waste my fingers typing…
#whostheliar?

July 15th, 2014 at 9:29 am

The WTF has an issue from a merit stand point. It’s played on a surface that favors certain players over others. For this reason, it can’t be used in and of itself as a barometer for determining GOAT status. If every slam would be played on clay, Nadal would have 25 majors and Roger probably 7 or 8. Tennis is a multi-surface game and its your performance over all of them that counts. Rafa’s (like Roger) has on all the surfaces. Roger’s relative success at the WTF relative to Rafa is only due to fickly finger of fate that ordained the tournament be played on a fast indoor srface.

July 15th, 2014 at 12:50 pm

I don’t buy into that. Then RG surface is unfair to players also. It favors Rafel Nadal. As well as grass then favors Roger Federer. They have merit, no? Don’t get your point here.
The WTF has great merit, only the top 8 players in the world qualify. It gives out more points than Masters. Its unique format makes you play a double elimination against the top 8 that qualify. And on top of that, its played in great theater of the 02 arena. It has stature, merit, and rewards as such. My only beef is when it went to a 3 set format, should have kept it @5. Oh well…

July 15th, 2014 at 1:15 pm

Facebook updates :
Nadal 14,376,203
Federer 14,334,311
#AboutTime

July 15th, 2014 at 1:40 pm

What’s all this thread about?
There is no arcane mystery about Rafa’s failure to win the WTF. It takes place, as its name does sort of suggest, at the end of the season, by which time the guy is usually running out of steam.

July 15th, 2014 at 2:13 pm

… from winning so much.

WTF is a showcase (like an all star game) with the exception that the ATP gives it 1500 points to try to play up its significance but the results are quickly forgotten, unlike the slams.

WTF is the right acronym for it being the only singles event that you can win after losing one or even two matches!

July 15th, 2014 at 2:58 pm

^i would like to see u guys to a comparison draw of wtf difficulty vs a Slam draw. If only u knew what the ATP already knows about this event. It has big time merit.
#betterthanthemasters

July 15th, 2014 at 3:43 pm

The WTF is an exceptional tournament, and only the greatest players of their time won it. It is, in a lot of ways, equal to the slams: the quality of the players, above all, and now the prize money too. It should be counted with the Slams, but the problem is that, before 1970, there was no equivalent to the WTF, and for a while, there were two similar tournaments.

The list of winners is practically, with a few exception, a list of the best players of the open era. Most of the players who have been number 1 player in the world have won it.

6 times: Federer,
5 times: Lendl, Sampras,
4 times: Nastase,
3 times: Becker, McEnroe, Djokovic,
2 times: Borg, Hewitt,
once: Agassi, Edberg, Connors, Kuerten…

Everybody of the top ten with most weeks at no 1 have won it at least once (Nadal excepted), everybody with 6 slams at least has won it but Nadal and Wilander.

The point with the WTF is that the draw doesn’t play very much in the result, that the conditions are equal for all the players, and that you have to beat at least three players from the top eight — usually you have to win 4, even all 5 matches.

For years already, the surface is chosen in a way to be different from the Slams — it is faster, and the rebound is lower (although since the tournament is in London the surface, while it doesn’t influence the serve that much, slows down spin).

Even the final in three is fair, in a sense: it is the end of the season, and playing in the best of five would give a big advantage to players who have played and won less in the season. It is not a question only of physical abilities, but of mental tenacity and freshness — there are no easy matches.

So, IMHO, yes, it deserves to be ranked with the slams for years already.

July 15th, 2014 at 3:50 pm

There is no need to downplay the quality of the WTF just because Rafa never won it. He still can win it. Will it be just another MS then?

July 15th, 2014 at 3:56 pm

“i would like to see u guys to a comparison draw of wtf difficulty vs a Slam draw”

Totally agree with you on this point skeezer. WTF draws are way more difficult than slam draws or even Masters.

To win in 2012 Nole beat Tsonga, Murray, Berdych, Delpo, and Fed, in that order.
To win in 2013 Nole beat Fed, Delpo, Gasquet, Stan and Rafa, in that order.
2008 was easier but he still beat Tsonga, Delpo, Simon and Davydenko, who was playing exceptionally well on fast hard; indeed he won the WTFs the next season.

To win a slam, they have to play 5 sets, yes, but they have a day off between each match AND you’d have to play at most 2 or 3 of the top 8 players. Often the early rounds are against players ranked outside the top 80 in the world. In addition to that, it means generally easier wins, with breadsticks and bagels.

With WTFs, players have to beat 5 top eight opponents in back-to-back days. Even Masters events allows top guys to “ease” into the draw somewhat. But not WTFs. Nole’s first round opponent last year was … Fed!!

July 15th, 2014 at 4:18 pm

I will win the WFT after the organizers change it to a family friendly name.

July 15th, 2014 at 4:22 pm

Nadal has 2 more realistic shots at WTF, this year where it can determine Year End #1 if he is close to Novak and next year. In 2016 he will be 30 and 6 motnhs. Almost impossible for hum to win after 30 if he hasn’t won in his prime yeras.

People are forgetting that although he was nuber 1 a few weaks ago he is is not getting younger. Some people just say: he will work harder, revamp and win some morea s if he is 24-25. Fatuer time is a b….ch for all of them. Pf course he will win more. Favorite for next year RG even if he doesn’t win a title from here till them. But his “time” is coming. It happens to everybody and we are entering the third or fourth phase of his career.

July 15th, 2014 at 5:18 pm

Daniel who are these people that you claim say this and that,i think everyone is realising that hes coming to the end of his career and going into a decline?if he ends his career not having not won a WTF i will be dissapointed im not going to lie,but if its meant to happen it will happen,if not then it wont,as i say sometimes your not meant to have it all,but as a fan i wont cry about it?

July 15th, 2014 at 5:29 pm

“So, IMHO, yes, it deserves to be ranked with the slams for years already.”

Except it isn’t anything like a slam.

Best of three (not five), indoors, complicated tiebreak formulas and you can lose and still win.

No one remembers who wins without google. Google is your friend.

July 15th, 2014 at 6:09 pm

So many fed fan broken records prognosticating that Nadal won’t win this, will never be the same after injury, will retire early, yada yada yada,

Glad Rafa continually disappoints them.

Nothing but wishful thinking hoping for the injury of others just because of a winning record against their guy. Pretty sad really.

July 15th, 2014 at 6:12 pm

Here we go again. Why would I be “unhappy” or “disappointed” if Rafa wins a WTF? Thats junk u types always are makin up. In fact, that would be great, and would applaud him wholeheartedly. But until then, talk is cheap and that talk is not going to down play the importance of winning WTF titles.
—
@trigg & jane
shaaammooon!

July 15th, 2014 at 6:25 pm

@skeezer,
Listening to some of them it appears that MC and even Barcelona are more important than WTF. Just wait until Rafa and if Rafa wins WTF, same (Rafa) fans will be singing different songs.

July 15th, 2014 at 6:46 pm

“Except it isn’t anything like a slam. […] No one remembers who wins without google.”

Fortunately, it is not the truth, especially now, when with cable television, a lot of sports channels and, last but not least, internet streaming, we can watch all those tournaments.

It was the truth for the seventies and the beginning of the eighties. In France, you could watch Roland Garros, but only the final of Wimbledon. There was much less money in tennis and in sport in general.

Anyway, I read a lot of comments from posters who probably started watching tennis lately, so, they don’t know a lot of things, and believe that nobody else knows those things, and that we need Google to know them. But a lot of us just plainly remember, and our assessment of tennis greats is not only based of stats, number of slams, etc.

Just an example: one of the often uttered opinion here was that Wilander was a boring player. Nonsense. Did anybody watch his final of the US open against Lendl? Just a few, I guess. Wilander was an exceptional player, who finished his slam winning career at 24, lacking the ambitions and discipline of Lendl, e.g. He served well, had all the shots, rushed to the net when needed, and his strategic acumen was exceptional. I liked him because he wasn’t big, lacked big weapons, but he nonetheless managed to win slams on clay, hard and grass.

Nobody today takes in account technology shifts that happen at the beginning of the eighties — Connors was a victim of such a shift, McEnroe too probably, and, at the end of his career, Sampras. Today, JMac’s and Jimbo’s FHs look… funny, but they were very good in the era of wooden racquets and low bouncing balls. You couldn’t hit hard, then, and an eastern grip allowed you to slice the FH when needed. Bigger, lighter racquets changed all of that. That was most obvious with Mecir, who played with a wooden racquet until 1986. I watched recently his final against Lendl and you could notice the difference the new technology brought to tennis.

Today, the luck of the draw is forgotten — but often it just decided the winner. From recent memory, Agassi lost a USO final because of the super saturday, Sampras probably did lose one too. McEnroe lost to Lendl in 1985, because he played a five setters against Wilander the day before. He was the better player in the tournaments before the USO, beating him in Montreal, if I remember well.

So… it is a bit futile to explain. I probably just waste my time.

But… the WTF is a great tournament, and it has nothing to do with Nadal, Federer, etc. And Federer is not the GOAT only because he has won 17 slams. Oh, no. But because he is a complete player, on any surface, with any racquet, at the net, from the back of the court… whatever.

And Nadal will be remembered as an all time great too, although, in a few years, when their time is done, younger players will come, and the clichés will be the only things left: Federer’s “grace”, Nadal “the clay grinder”, “boring” (probably), Djokovic “grinder”, “boring”, Safin “playboy”, “Pistol” Pete (his running FH was the best in the game, BTW, and his BH slice was great too).

To quote Milan Kundera: “Before being forgotten, we will all be turned into kitsch”.

July 15th, 2014 at 7:29 pm

Hi, WB, nice you’re here.

Hi jane and skeez! I am happy to see you are all back.

July 15th, 2014 at 7:30 pm

@Michael

Yeah, thanks, for agreeing with me on the GOAT debate. I feel like everyone that says there is a GREATEST OF ALL TIME are dismissing some wonderful players of long ago. There are so many variables to consider, as Chic said. I personally think the topic is disrespectful for our older former champions…..just saying.

July 15th, 2014 at 7:34 pm

Hi Trigg,

Thanks, nice to see you too. Pleasure to read your posts.

July 15th, 2014 at 9:00 pm

After 2015, in which city the WTF will be hosted?

July 15th, 2014 at 10:00 pm

Trigg,

You are right. I remebmber till today when Guga beat Sampras and Agassi back to back in semis and finals to win his WTF and secure Year end #1. Right till the last march of the season. It was awesome.

And Giles, regarding your Facebook count, there is more women than man in the world right now and the bulk of Nadal fans are ladies, so…

July 15th, 2014 at 10:38 pm

A lone greatest player candidate is someone who dominates for a 7-15 year period, the slam and masters title champs.
Fed eras a late bloomer who got beaten many times by much younger players since he was 22-26.
Hewitt and nalbandian had many wins vs fed despite having little success for a decade. Fed had no serious health issue, unlike Sampras, Agassi, nadal & djoker.
There wouldn’t be criticism if fed had a tough road to wins
Fed dominated lazy, clay skipping moron roddick and overrated hewitt. Safin and nalbandian were also lazy; they and roddick admitted in public that they wished for fed to win. They hoped to look better as losers to fed without doing the real winning themselves. They had losers’ mentality because they had a sense of inadequacy since they were teenagers.
These clowns Just showed up for money and were overexcited when they played exhibitions. When you look at Connors, laver, pancho Gonzales, etc., you know they were fighters with great all surface skills even though part of their era didn’t involve difficult masters 1000 draws and slams on hardcourt and clay back to back like in 2008-2014. You can’t really compare the legends of today with 99% of the 2002-2006 players. Even 30 year olds could beat fed at us open & Wimbledon, but Roddick choked like a rat when he met federer twice in finals. Novak won’t suddenly lose 99% of the slams & masters 1000 when he becomes age 33. He won’t take things for granted. He lost too many years with his late blooming & health revitalizing in 2011.

July 15th, 2014 at 10:46 pm

Trigg,
Not futile. I remember. Fun read @7:29… Yes, Wilander was something! ;). Connors at a time led the tech shift, don’t forget;
Wilson T2000?
—
Wog boy,
I was thinkin about that, but you said it. Too funny ;).

July 16th, 2014 at 12:44 am

Okiegal @ 7.34 PM,

GOAT is really a perceptional battle. What appears as GOAT to one, may not appear to another who have their own reasons not agreeing it and so the debate will go on endless. There are many amongst the old timers who consider Laver as the GOAT based on his accumulation of two Calendear Grand slams in his sparkling career. Although he won just 11 Grand slam titles, they reason out that he was not allowed to play during his best years due to a blanket ban imposed on players who turned Professional in those times when money was considered as a sin in sport. Laver was forced to miss out playing in the circuit in his best years and they wonder the kind of slam count he would have amassed if he had been allowed to play then. So, it is a big “IF” in the case of Laver and it is best open to conjecture. So, here who is Greater – Laver or Roger or Rafa or Sampras or Borg ? In terms of success, it is Roger who dominates like a collossus with Rafa not far behind. But, there are some defects too in Roger’s outstanding profile. He is yet to win a Calendar Grand slam and ie. winning the four majors in the same year. He is also yet to win all the Master Series titles atleast once nor has he lead his Country to victory in the Davis Cup or has won the Singles Olympic Gold. His H2H against his contemporary rivals is not so dominating and outstanding. He is leading Novak by the skin of his teeth and trails Andy by a whisker. Ofcourse, everyone knows the kind of embarrasing H2H he has against his main rival. So, Roger has a career which is both white and black, may be with white in a larger measure. In the case of Rafa, he has his own pitfalls despite his domination of rivalries. His record on grass and hard courts pale much in comparison to his stellar achievements on the Clay courts where he is undoubtedly the player of the generation. He is also yet to win some of the Master series titles and above all the WTF. He is also not physically fit and has missed some years due to injuries. So, taking into account all these factors, how can anyone determine a GOAT with any degree of certainity ? GOAT is applicable not only to the past and present but also the future which definitely cannot be premonitored. Who know what would happen in future ? There might emerge a player who would win say 24 Grand slam titles and overtake all leaders and the GOAT sobriquet would change hands. So, it is best not to tread in this GOAT territory and just concentrate on the achievements of players and the careers they shape out.

July 16th, 2014 at 12:46 am

I would say World Tour Finals is the 5th most important tournament in Tennis calendar after the majors which I would line up as Wimbledon, US Open, French and Australian in terms of prestigious stakes.

July 16th, 2014 at 12:54 am

“There might emerge a player who would win say 24 Grand slam titles and overtake all leaders and the GOAT sobriquet would change hands.”
Lol…NOT going to happen in your lifetime. The discussion is now, and the “if” game has been played over too many times, especially when Rafa wins RG, the minions get all excited.
Michael, I respect your perceptions, but that is it, your perception. Math is math. Fed has a totality of more achievements than anyone in the history of tennis. That cannot be twisted or melted down and reforged to try to mean anything else than what it is.
Btw, think about this with “ifs”, if Fed was transported back into Lavers heyday, playing with a wood racket, how do you think Fed would do with the toolbox of strokes his game has vs those guys? Now put Rafa, with a wood racket, in Lavers era.

July 16th, 2014 at 2:01 am

Skeezer,

Ofcourse, Roger is the most successful player right now there and nobody with sanity can deny it. I never twisted, tinkered or deformed it. I am a great fan of Roger and his style of play and how even in my dreams I can be discourteous to him ? He is a Legend. Even Rafa devouts agree on this. But the main contention here is only regarding the GOAT sobriquet and whether Roger has earned it. It is where many agree to disagree which lead to mutual acrimonies and a never ending debate. Those opposing Roger as the GOAT have their own finer points which are truly valid in the scheme of things. So, I thought in the interest of restoring some semblance of saner wisdom, this can be best left untouched. At the moment, let us all agree that it is Roger who is the most successful player and that is a matter of collective pride. As regards the time machine and your transpose to the past, it can only be conjectured as to how well would Roger or Rafa have fared with wooden racquets ? Your guess is good as mine. But my gut feeling is that Roger would have fared better than Rafa with his skill and touch game and in those archaic days, Tennis was ruled by skill and touch and not by sheer brute power as is today.

July 16th, 2014 at 2:25 am

@Michael 12:46

You summed it up nicely! I totally agree. Others won’t……but I guess we can all agree to disagree on this matter……no GOAT meat for me, I go for the Bull…….LOL

#steakplease

July 16th, 2014 at 3:02 am

Okiegal,

Thanks. But this GOAT discussion can make things lively when different proponents come out with their facts and figures to elucidiate their view point. That gives us an insight of the players complete profile when they dwelve deeply into their achievements. So, in a way it extracts more information and keep us updated. That is the only plus point that emerges out of such discussions which lead us nowhere.

July 16th, 2014 at 3:30 am

Trigg im not downplaying the importance of the WTF,i realize its significance so i would love for Rafa to win it,but its unlikely to happen as the courts dont suit his game,so therefore i wont be holding my breath or beating myself up about it,anyway i would only say that the format for me is what i find bizarre,in a GS you lose and your out,in the WTF you lose once even twice, and you get to play another match against another player,sometimes even reach the final and win the title,pretty similar to what they do in the football WC,i can imagine the reaction should Rafa actually win the WTF especially if he loses a couple of matches on the way,Dave actually alluded to Novak losing a match the 1st year he won it….

July 16th, 2014 at 5:19 am

Quote for the day:

Hall of fame Nick Bollettieri – “I believe Roger is the best player to have ever played the game”

SG1 Says:
The WTF has an issue from a merit stand point. It’s played on a surface that favors certain players over others. For this reason, it can’t be used in and of itself as a barometer for determining GOAT status. If every slam would be played on clay, Nadal would have 25 majors and Roger probably 7 or 8. Tennis is a multi-surface game and its your performance over all of them that counts. Rafa’s (like Roger) has on all the surfaces. Roger’s relative success at the WTF relative to Rafa is only due to fickly finger of fate that ordained the tournament be played on a fast indoor srface.

July 15th, 2014 at 12:50 pm

SG1, I disagree here. “It’s a favoured surface?”. How so? Okay, so you have tried to go on and explain this, but you can say the same for clay? (Rafa, Amalgro, Robredo, Ferrer, anyone brought up on clay since the age of 4). It’s simply a tournament, at the end of the year, when all of our favourites have been on tour, played in the region of 20 or so tournaments, ranging from 250-1000, experiencing the wins, the losses, etc.

The WTF is exactly that. The WORLD TOUR FINALS. The end of an arduous year, of the GS’ played, the Masters played, the 250 events, the 500 events. It is the tournament which lies just beneath the slams in terms of prestige. It sorts out the men from the boys. Equal playing field for all players. Now, another argument can be raised. Too many tournaments throughout the year played on clay. Does that not favour Rafa? Let’s have more tournaments on grass shall we?

Why is Wimbledon so prestigious and known as “the slam of all slams”, probably because it is one of the few tournaments played on grass during the year. It is prestigious due to its rarity of surface.

This is what Rafa says:

Q:You played ten finals this ending year, your second best record

A: Rather than speaking of ten finals what matters is which ones they are. Playing ten is always difficult, but one has to look at their category: three Grand Slams, Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome. That is, I contested the finals of the ten “most important” tournaments of the year except for Australia, where I was injured. So, I’ve been always there and what I lacked was finishing off. If I had finished off some of them it would have been a spectacular year, but many were lost. These are the games where there is more difference of losing to winning.

So, Nadal, doesn’t include the WTF on the list of important tournaments, (so don’t play the tournament!).

Not only that, if you are downgrading the WTF, then you have to downgrade the Olympics. Why?

The Year End Championships, known as the World Tour Finals (WTF) appears to be the most prestigious yearly tournament category (according to the ATP). Olympics not included is what they say.

However, any tournament which our favourites play, they play to win. The end of the year is a testament to the strongest player of the year. Technically, that should be rafa, but he wins so much at the start of the year that by the end of it, he is spent, (or more spent than the start). Probably to do with the miles he has in his legs.

July 16th, 2014 at 5:57 am

Daniel Says:
Trigg,

You are right. I remebmber till today when Guga beat Sampras and Agassi back to back in semis and finals to win his WTF and secure Year end #1. Right till the last march of the season. It was awesome.

And Giles, regarding your Facebook count, there is more women than man in the world right now and the bulk of Nadal fans are ladies, so…

July 15th, 2014 at 10:38 pm

Funny Daniel!

July 16th, 2014 at 6:09 am

@Daniel

Highly sexist Daniel. You are implying ladies are dumb ?

Explain your position further :)

July 16th, 2014 at 6:11 am

Patson exactly i didnt find it funny either,i actually found it quite patronizing,same with Purcell and the Rafa fan Essex girl remark,how rude,cant we just say Rafa and Roger are both very popular and leave it at that anyway,way too much kitsch,and my dads bigger than your dad type of talk….

July 16th, 2014 at 6:16 am

Patson! Hippy! Lighten up! It’s actually a fact. Daniel was stating the obvious!

If you look at the facebook blog of Rafa, it gives you the gender of both male and female posters. Daniel speaks the truth!

This site is getting more serious by the minute! :)

Hippy, to be fair, have been reading Giles and he started this with my dad is bigger than your dad talk. You go on to say, in a very balanced way, yes, they are both popular – but then that doesn’t account for a discussion which gets us all going, now does it?

So what if Rafa has like 2 more followers than Fed. He is busy changing nappies right now anyway! :)

Let’s be honest. If we are talking popularity stakes here, we only have to look at the voters’ favourite and the Stefan Edberg award (prior to Edberg being Fed’s coach, so totally independent here), the most popular ever is our dear Roger.

*I hear you sigh*, and that’s okay! :)

July 16th, 2014 at 7:25 am

Patson, unless I misread, I couldn’t see that Daniel was implying ladies are dumb. Many here, including hippy, (right hippy?) have commented on rafa’s, shall we say, modelling in his underwear – can’t stand it myself. So I think a little humour is necessary here.

July 16th, 2014 at 7:27 am

Hippy, your posts are also becoming quite funny (in a good way, not a patronising way – so please don’t take it any other way but that). You get really involved in the way that players look and comment on them quite a lot – look at this one –

alison Says:
Dave agree about KK,Bjorn gets away with it though,loved the picture of Marat now that is one player whos hair i would love to ruffle,just about the sexiest retired player,not so much with the long hair but deffinetly now though,same with Berdych whos just about the sexiest player still playing,even though hes a total jerk whos attitude leaves alot to be desired,i havent actually got a picture of Rafa with his hair short,but ive seen plenty on his website,and if you put one up i would be a happy woman,lol im just wondering where this thread is going,some men will probably be getting an inferiority complex about their hair now after reading these comments,im actually losing my hair a little as its a side effect of thyriod trouble,and taking thyroxine,so in years to come i will probably be as bald as Lubi lol.

November 27th, 2012 at 7:12 am

You just have to laugh sometimes – otherwise we would all go crazy in this world!

July 16th, 2014 at 7:36 am

Madmax telling a person to lighten up is all well and good when your fans are not on the recieving end of talk like fanatics,minions,armani sniffers,essex girls etc,some of the many adjectives to describe the average Rafa fan,which i find tiresome to the very extreme,i commented on the armani stuff at the time,but its done with in the past,its not even the Rafa fans that bring it up anymore these days,Rafa might have two more fans than Roger exactly who cares?the point is its easy to say lighten up its all in fun blahdy blah,but not much fun when your held under ridicule as a fan,for what its worth though Giles doesnt care for my posts anyway,as he doesnt believe im a genuine Rafa fan,as im not biased enough,defend him enough,or think hes perfect either,i also have the audacity to congratulate other players and their achievements too….

July 16th, 2014 at 7:48 am

Madmax ok point taken fair enough,please ignore the above post….

July 16th, 2014 at 7:51 am

@madmax

‘the bulk of Nadal fans are ladies, so…’

First, the statement about having a female fanship followed by the ‘so’ which is then followed by three dots made me say what I said earlier. Sarcasm is easy to spot. :)

Second, I’m fairly chill. I’m not the one who wrote 3 posts in a space of 12 minutes.

July 16th, 2014 at 7:54 am

Patson! ha! okay…it’s just I think, I write, then I post, then think of something else – nothing intended :)and have some time off right about now, so easy for me to sit at kitchen table when nothing much else to do!

Hippy – I see what you are saying – your posts are way better than giles’ anyway – so take the compliment.

Always gonna be wars with Roge and Rafa – we just have to accept this.

July 16th, 2014 at 8:17 am

Patson, did I post too quick? or…?

July 16th, 2014 at 8:18 am

Michael, success is a subjective term so I do not agree with your assumption that Federer being most successful is fact.

Depends upon what defines success. If it is money, then yes. That is a fact and cannot be debated. If it is tournaments won or majors won then yes.

If it defined by winning percentage, then it is Nadal.

If it is defined by overall achievements including slams, masters, olympics, Davis Cup considering the level of competition, then it is Nadal in my opinion (including many others such as Agassi).

Success is no more objective than GOAT.

All opinion.

July 16th, 2014 at 8:44 am

Thankyou Madmax….

July 16th, 2014 at 9:31 am

“my dad is bigger than your dad talk” lol. I do believe it is always the fedfans who are bragging trying to shove “17” in our faces endlessly. I remember skeezer not long ago elaborating on Fed’s Facebook likes. A d here I am doing the very same thing. Rafa is ahead now. I don’t care if the followers are male or female, young or old, they are still followers!
#NumbersCount
#VamosRafa

July 16th, 2014 at 10:37 am

@madmax. Save it. You don’t find my posts interesting, here’s some advice, scroll down. You are capable of doing that I assume? Or maybe not. Tooooo curious!

July 16th, 2014 at 10:42 am

BTW madmax, it’s fans like you and skeezer who create the wars!

July 16th, 2014 at 10:45 am

Deary me, oh deary me Giles. Bee in our bonnet? You are even turning against the nicest poster on this site – Hippy.

You are correct on one thing.

#NumbersCount

Yes. They do.

17 Slams
302 weeks at number 1
6 WTF

Take a leaf out of your own book Giles.

Ignore and move on.

July 16th, 2014 at 11:00 am

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.774168439271493&type=3&l=cb4020e34f
The Nadal International Tennis Center.
Beautiful.
Wishing you every success Rafa.
Vamos Champ!

July 16th, 2014 at 11:12 am

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/news/articles/2014-07-16/remembering_federer_v_nadal_2008_-_the_umpires_view.html
This might be interesting for some of you.

July 16th, 2014 at 11:20 am

Giles,
What rubbage you talk about sometimes. I mentioned Feds FB likes a while back cause u types are saying how Rafa is the Global Rock Star of Tennis and he is the most popular Tennis star and blah blah balh. Fact is, FED IS Tennis, the the world knows it. Just because you and a few others post all this social media stuff and continuos dated links about Rafa doesn’t mean he is more popular or loved than Fed in the real world. You want to bring a popsicle stick to a fight, go ahead.

July 16th, 2014 at 12:21 pm

Could’ve sworn there was tennis before FED.

Who knew?

July 16th, 2014 at 12:31 pm

@skeezer. I don’t fight with girls!!

July 16th, 2014 at 1:01 pm

RT ‏@TennisPurist: “Thiem will be unable to practice in November because he will fulfil his military service. Not weaseling out of it like Federer, respect.”

Chapeau, young Thiem! Respect indeed………..

July 16th, 2014 at 1:39 pm

@ nadalista. Lol. Where did you fish that out from?
#Genius

July 16th, 2014 at 3:22 pm

@Giles

‘I don’t fight with girls’

That’s sexist as well. In this case, the victims are boys whom you fight with. Why spare girls from your wrath ?

July 16th, 2014 at 4:36 pm

@Jonathan 12:31

You do have a point……lol

July 16th, 2014 at 5:08 pm

Jonathan @ 8.44 am,

If it defined by winning percentage, then it is Nadal.

But don’t you think that this is an unfair comparison considering that Roger is now past his prime and his winning percentage would naturally come down over course of time. On the other hand, Rafa is now in his prime and so his winning percentage is seemingly high. I do not think the winning percentage criteria would stick given this scenario. Nevertheless, this can be assessed when both end their careers.

If it is defined by overall achievements including slams, masters, olympics, Davis Cup considering the level of competition, then it is Nadal in my opinion (including many others such as Agassi)

Do not think I am undermining Rafa in any way. Facts are facts despite how much you may try to give a spin. If you take slams or majors, the starking numbers are 17 Vs 14. Also, in the distribution of majors Roger has a relatively better equitable distribution amongst them than Rafa whose 9 out of 14 majors have come on Clay which reinforces the fact that he is a better all surface player than Rafa is. If you take the Master series titles, Rafa undeniably has the edge with 27 Vs 21, but Roger has won 6 World Tour final titles against none by Rafa and so it pretty much evens out there or may be if the stature and importance of World Tour finals is considered, then Roger stands head and shoulders above Rafa. Regarding Olympics and Davis Cup, ofcourse Rafa has the edge, but heretoo it is not a cake walk as Roger has won Silver in Singles and Gold in doubles. It is only in the Davis Cup Rafa can take pride in the fact that he has led his Country to continuous victories but he he had a strong Spanish contingent to complement his efforts and that is a big advantage. Moreover, no one is sure as to whether Davis Cup performance can be brought into the realm of a better player discussion. But, still, in my opinion it counts.

So considering all the parameters above, it is seemingly clear as to who is the most successful player at the moment whichever way you look at it. May be in future, Rafa has a chance to overtake Roger. But at the moment it is certainly Roger all the way !!

July 17th, 2014 at 12:47 am

Both Rafa and Roger are All Time Greats. The gold standard for the GOAT status is for all but tennis nerds, number of GS titles.
Rafas Davis Cup titles is balanced by Rogers WTF titles. Rafas gold medal by Rogers numerous records, especially number 1 record.
So work it out for yourself.
Anyway, why have this silly discussion now. Wait another 5 years and there will be som definite figures.

July 17th, 2014 at 3:25 am

Rafa wins ESPYS for Best Male Tennis Player.
Congratulations Champ!
Vamos!

July 17th, 2014 at 4:20 am

Nadalista and Giles, (I love history by the way!). Thank you for posting this. :) Really mean it.

You really do bounce off each other don’t you? What I do enjoy however, is you providing these fabulous nuggets of information, because it gives a better overview of Federer as a humanitarian, a human being, a philanthropist, someone who does not have a problem giving away his money. It’s not as if he “evaded” military service – as you would like the information to be interpreted – and I would hardly call 5 months “basic training in Switzerland, “military service” –

So you both agree with War then do you?

Interesting.

Considering the country has not be involved in the conflicts of war since 1815, I don’t even know why Thiem is bothering. I guess it is a token gesture, though Nadalista and Giles, you seem to both think otherwise? Switzerland is regarded as a neutral country – As long as the country is officially recognized as neutral, no country can legally form plans to invade it or use it as a base of operations.

During World War I, Switzerland did not offer any meaningful military assistance to Germany or France, though The country’s policies and practices during World War II, however, did raise a number of concerns about its neutrality among Allied countries. Nazi Germany did maintain an economic relationship with Switzerland throughout the entire war.

Federer? Military Service? Let’s get some facts right shall we?

Swiss men under 34 are required to do national service and “may” join the civil protection force if they are unable to serve in the army. Most men in the army spend five months in basic training and then spend two or three weeks a year in annual training. Civil protection duty can be much shorter, according to local requirements.

“Federer was ruled “unsuitable” for military service because of an unspecified injury. Like all men who are excused from army duty, he must pay 3% of his taxable income to the state — a sizable amount for someone earning millions annually. For every day he serves in the civil protection force, that year’s figure is reduced by 4%.

The civil protection force provides assistance and information to the Swiss population in the event of a disaster, natural catastrophe or war. It maintains the country’s network of nuclear fallout shelters and provides backup for the emergency services.”

Nadalista and giles, keep up the great work!

July 17th, 2014 at 6:43 am

@ madmax. Why oh why are you shooting the messenger???

July 17th, 2014 at 7:43 am

Tennis X. Rafa won the Espy award for best male tennis player. Is an article forthcoming?

July 17th, 2014 at 7:59 am

Interesting and informative facts about Switzerland……..Thanks MADMAX!! Switzerland is a beautiful country. I went to church with a lady who vacationed in Switzerland every summer…..it was her favorite place in the whole world. She had a massive heart attack while on vacation there and that is where her husband had her buried. She had lost 3 sons prior to her death and the husband stated that she had nothing to go home for…..He left her in the place she loved most. The pics I’ve seen of the Swiss Alps are breathtaking!!

July 17th, 2014 at 8:12 am

Michael, sorry that I failed to make my point.

Firstly, let me just say I do not think (or even particularly care) that you would “undermine Rafa”.

I am not saying that I believe that winning percentage (or any other parameter or set of parameters) makes Nadal GOAT or most successful. Facts are indeed facts and cannot be debated by definition! However, depending on how you or I weight these facts, we can come to different (but equally meaningful) opinions.

The most successful (or GOAT for that matter) is completely subjective opinion influenced by differing opinions on what constitutes those subjective terms.

It’s just opinion to which you are completely entitled.

THIS was my point along with how it is so funny that so many here fail to distinguish between what is fact and what is pure subjectivity.

July 17th, 2014 at 8:42 am

@madmax, thanks for corroborating what @TennisPurist said, that Federer weaseled his way of military service.

July 17th, 2014 at 9:22 am

^^ should read, “….way out of military service”.

July 17th, 2014 at 9:23 am

“Federer was ruled “unsuitable” for military service because of an unspecified injury.”

Was it SARS or bird flu.

July 17th, 2014 at 9:34 am

Patson,

Loved your sexiest remark to Giles. Double standad of todays world. Women fight for equality for years but some feel like they “deserve” a different aproach. We are all equals.

Madmax responded the question you make. The so… At the end was simply math and yes it was sarcasm: Nadal has more female fans than male due to this phsique, there are more women in the world hence more fans on facebook (more than man).

You were the one who bring “dumb” and “ladies” on your assumption, so… your conclusion not mine.

July 17th, 2014 at 10:20 am

Daniel. You and Patson missed the whole point of my comment. Oh ….. Never mind.

July 17th, 2014 at 10:30 am

HC,

I din’t know the posters but a general feeling. Of course we leran to not write off some of this great champions but some think that they could be ciming back at will and it’s not how it work.

For example many wirte Fed off and right now I wish I could say he will win 1 more Slam after this toug fdefeat because he is a great champion and bla bla. But ipI can’t fdue to his age and “decline” althoug he is still #3 whihc makes him third favorite ti win everything compared to everybody else.

Those who keep saying he is not a fa tor can be right or wro g (right now they are right) but if he wins a Slam they would be wrong.

Same with Nadal. Many said he would have a short career interrupted by injury. He had several bad patches where he recovered and won so a lot assume he will be doing this at will. The ones who precahed his decline are wrong now and te ones who believed him are right especially after 2013. But if he won’t win anyhting big from now on those who were wrong for year will be right with the: ‘I told you so’ attitude.

I just wanted to highligth thay they are professional players and they have a gap (5-15) where they can leave their mark. Very few cases of long dominace or relevance because their body folds and they can’t produce the same level again.

You have the right aproach, you are alrady happy with what Nadal achieve and whatever jroe comes the best.

I have the same aproach with Fed now. Got used to defeats, lower expectations enjoyijg his playing while it last and if more success comes the better. He is still relevant a few days from 33 (August 8th) and playing competitive top 5 tennis from 12 years now (after he won his first Slam back in 2003). Nadal is doing his thing for 10 years and we will know soon if he will have a similar career to Fed or not.

July 17th, 2014 at 10:33 am

Actually there aren’t:
http://www.geohive.com/earth/pop_gender.aspx

And….as the web site say, it’s an estimate anyway. More male than female babies are born per hundred and of course, in some countries baby girls are killed, sometimes even in utero.
Yes, indeed, we live in a very sad, sexist world.

July 17th, 2014 at 10:35 am

nadalista Says:
@madmax, thanks for corroborating what @TennisPurist said, that Federer weaseled his way of military service.

July 17th, 2014 at 9:22 am

My pleasure Nadalista. Keep posting your interpretations of these facts though, won’t you? I wouldn’t worry about Thiem too much, neutral country, no conflicts since 1885. Perhaps IF Fed was “evading” military service and NOT paying tax then yes, you would have a point.

It died a dead duck however. Sorry to spoil your day.

July 17th, 2014 at 11:32 am

Margot?

What are you talking about?

You only need to go on rafa’s facebook to check the gender count for female/male about who voted for rafa. I think that is what Daniel mentioned.

July 17th, 2014 at 11:34 am

Must be a lot of female sports journalists to explain Nadal’s ESPY award last night for Best Male Tennis Player.

(Facebook gender breakdown skews in favour of women BTW.)

whatevs

July 17th, 2014 at 11:43 am

@madmx
I am talking about world population, not Rafa’s facebook following. Someone, can’t remember who, said there were more women in the world, and there aren’t.

July 17th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

madmax says:

SG1, I disagree here. “It’s a favoured surface?”. How so?

————

Please read what I wrote. My exact words were that using the WTF “in and of itself” to establish a GOAT is flawed. “in and of itself” is the key to what I was saying.

As you said, every surface favors one player over another. Federer on grass, Rafa on clay, Novak on hardcourts (….though I think Federer’s best surface was a hardcourt up to and including 2009).

There is an opinion here that the WTF is so prestigous because only the best 8 players of the year make it. Fine. I’ll buy that. In other words winning against the best of your peers means a lot. I’ll buy that too. However, if folks are going to make the argument that this tournament is major-like in status (…and determines GOATness) because you have to beat the best to win it, than you can’t dismiss Rafa’s head-to-head record against the top 10 or 20 players when evaluating GOAT or best ever or whatever….The competition argument cuts both ways.

July 17th, 2014 at 12:51 pm

Sexism as it best!

Females are equal like male, otherwise you not respect your own mother.

Btw, I ask again, after 2015, in which city the WTF will be hosted?

July 17th, 2014 at 12:54 pm

@Margot:

“Yes, indeed, we live in a very sad, sexist world.”

You are completely right. It reminded me that even the great George Washington was aware of that, declaring that the Indian wouldn’t be so cruel if their wives didn’t make them so.

Did the matriarchate ever ended? ;-)

Joking aside… I rewatched some bits of the Federer-Nadal Wimby 2008 final, then some Nadal-Kyrgios.

So, having his recent results on grass in mind, I asked myself if the enforcing of the 20 seconds rule was hurting Rafa?

He played a bit faster, the last two years. Just an example: he used to take in average 30 seconds between points in the final in 2008; at break point (3-4 in the fifth), he took 38 seconds, then, at the next point, 34 seconds, then he played a little faster, and took 32 seconds. Most of the time Roger was already ready and waiting for the next serve before Rafa came back to the baseline and took the towel.

Does it hurt his game? Especially since he can’t throw off opponents from their returning rhythm? I don’t see that the rallies were very long.

July 17th, 2014 at 1:01 pm

@Steve 27
It’ll follow the money!

July 17th, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Thanks Daniel for the reply,and you do make alot of sense….

July 17th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

Congrats to Rafa for the ESPY award. A great award to add to his all time greatness resume.

July 17th, 2014 at 1:22 pm

HC. Did you congratulate Rafa for the ESPY award? No?
skeezer did!

July 17th, 2014 at 1:40 pm

Giles please check the other thread,just to say im delighted for Rafa,but then again you dont believe im a genuine Rafa fan anyway,so why would such a thing concern you?

July 17th, 2014 at 1:46 pm

HC. Checked.

July 17th, 2014 at 2:11 pm

Giles,

I got what you were implying;-) I wouldn´t be beating a little girl myself LOL
But this days things can be interpreted out of context, if you don´t write it properly.

July 17th, 2014 at 2:21 pm

Wow, Margot didn´t know that.

Do you have the geographic info, because my sense is that on west is clearly more woman than man. Here in Brazil is like this. I k now Australia have more man but maybe it´s a thing with Asia population which is compensating for West part.

Maybe we need to check by country.

July 17th, 2014 at 2:26 pm

Giles, other rafafans,

last night, rafa won the espy award for “best male tennis player.” sharapova won “best female tennis player.” once again, i’m very proud of our boy.

thought you guys should know.

have a wonderful day!

July 17th, 2014 at 2:42 pm

Giles,

you already knew about the espy. sorry, I didn’t read your comments before I posted. anyway, very happy for rafa!

July 17th, 2014 at 2:45 pm

Margot Says:
@madmx
I am talking about world population, not Rafa’s facebook following. Someone, can’t remember who, said there were more women in the world, and there aren’t.

July 17th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

Okay Margot. :) I thought Daniel was talking about Facebook, NOT world population!

July 17th, 2014 at 4:07 pm

@mem. Hi. I do try to keep my eye on the ball so far as Rafa news is concerned. Nice little Award for our boy!

July 17th, 2014 at 4:54 pm

Newsweek on Nole:
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/07/25/how-novak-djokovic-became-serbias-brand-ambassador-259431.html

July 17th, 2014 at 11:20 pm

@ Wog Boy: Thanx for link

July 17th, 2014 at 11:36 pm

@wog boy
Thanks for that link. Great read. Best news of late considering the slow tennis news. Great insight and looking forward to Nole this year. Question…. Can he maintain the status of a worlds #1 and go further the remaining of this year? Guess we’ll wait and see. If by chance he pockets USO this year these questions will be heartily answered.

Trigg should chime in here…

July 18th, 2014 at 12:42 am

Jonathan @ 8.42 am

The most successful (or GOAT for that matter) is completely subjective opinion influenced by differing opinions on what constitutes those subjective terms.

I completely agree with this contention. Infact I have been stressing this for time immemorial that the GOAT discussion will lead us nowhere and is just good for academic debates which sometimes becomes acrimonous when fans get deeply emotional to score brownie points in favour of their idol. But, Rafa has become the undisputed GOAT on Clay because of his mindboggling achievements which is unlikely to be surpassed atleast for many more generations. I do not think not many can contest that claim of Rafa being the GREATEST on Clay. Not only his 9 titles at Rolland Garros but that is complemented by a plethora of Master series titles on Clay which just goes to the kind of insane consistency he had on that particular surface.

Now regarding the tag of the most successful player that is credited to Roger, I think he deserves it considering his superior profile with the kind of achievements that he has managed over the years with impeccable and incredible consistency on the big stage. His uninterrupted grand slam appearances coupled with his amazing consistency makes him too special to ignore. I would say his greatest achievement is being ranked No.3 at 33. We know how many players like Sampras, Lendl, Becker etc. faded out when the age factor caught up with them. But Roger is still strong and going and the way he fought against Novak in the finals of Wimbledon will make the younger generation envious.

July 18th, 2014 at 12:53 am

wog boy, i saw that piece earlier but hadn’t read all of it. thanks for sharing.

July 18th, 2014 at 1:02 am

@Daniel
Link I gave does just that.

July 18th, 2014 at 1:09 am

I would love to see Andy get back into the GS winners circle,i think tennis needs him at that top level again,the pre surgery Andy was/is a good match up for Novak,sadly hes not been the same since the surgery,i hope he recapturs the form that won him the USO in 2012,and Wimbledon in 2013,and not end up going the Delpotro way,who has never been the same since winning the USO in 2009,that would be a shame….

July 18th, 2014 at 5:34 am

No more hashtags Sean?thank goodness and about time….

July 18th, 2014 at 6:28 pm

Just wondering why it matters whether Roger does military service,as hes a tennis player for goodness sake?

July 19th, 2014 at 1:59 pm