Fedal Wars: Uncle Toni Admits There’s No Debate Federer’s Better Than Nadal, But Djokovic Also?

Clear contradiction. Federer better than Nadal not because of his game but due to a greater number of titles, but Djokovic better than Nadal despite having less titles. Idk maybe i misread it.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:02 pm

What is news worthy in all of this?

Uncle Toni is stating the obvious on both counts:

– GOAT Debate:

Fed has 17. Rafael has 14. Logically speaking, until/if Rafa gets to atleast 16 then really this is not even a conversation.

Just a run of the mill story the media milks for $$$$ and fanatics who like to argue more than anything going at one another.

Sensible folks know it’s not even a conversation as of yet.

– Djokovic:

Toni actually said technique wise Novak could be considered better.

Hardly news at all.

Technically speaking:

Murray, Berdych, Dimitrov and a fair few others would be considered better/superior than Nadal according to the text book.

So again this is no real surprise.

It’s like Andy Roddick said:

IF you judge Nadal by the book then really he’s a mass of technical faults- a poor player.

But if you judge him with your eyes and see the phenomena that he is then you’ll realize why he’s won 14 Grand Slam and is rated superior to all barring Federer, Sampras and Laver. At worst.

Nadal is a unconventional, unique player that really is a one off since the game has not seen someone play in the manner that he does.

To judge him in conventional terms you’ll fail to understand what makes him the force that he is.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:05 pm

@Jacob:

Context:

Uncle Toni was likely speaking in spanish and answering a question that we do not know.

This is a translation that could quite easily not fully reflect what Uncle Toni was trying to say.

About Uncle Toni:

He’s well known to publicly downplay Rafael and his achievement- a extremely tough task master.

It’s like John McEnroe said: he hardly gives Nadal a break and certainly no praise.

Andre Agassi said their relationship reminds him of his with his old man: it’s very, very controlling.

I think Toni does this to maintain Nadal’s hunger, keep him motivated and psychologically motivated as in:

Hey, you still ain’t good enough and you have much to improve.

In some sense it’s great but in others you feel sorry for Rafael that his Uncle does not ease up and be more praising of his nephew who’s always shown great respect and dignity towards him.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

I can tell you who is not top 4 material anymore.

6-0 6-1

November 29th, 2014 at 12:22 pm

Federer will always be the best in history because of how he plays tennis. He is a strong player in every shot and every aspect of the game. He is well rounded on each surface and pretty much every event.

Nadal beats Federer h2h because he is king of clay and leads Federer 10-8 on non clay surfaces. It is a bad matchup for fed. That is why Toni realizes Federer is the goat. If nadal would be anyone else Federer would beat him. Even against a prime djokovic 7 years younger Federer still beats him.

Toni may say djokovic might be a better player than nadal because djokovic is more consistent and well rounded on all surfaces as opposed to just dominating clay like rafa. Still, rafa comes through in the slams and he is like a tank.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

We will see who is more hungry in 2016.. Roger or Nadal..

You know Nadal has other plans for 2016, rite.. he and Toni is accepting what has been known earlier that Roger is unmtached..

everybody was saying Roger is weaker to Nadal.. how can Roger not be after 2008 and being 28.. its a huge disadvantage which Nadal and team will clearly see..

Nadal has also accepted he will never comeback to the form of 2013.. Tennis world will witness who is the greatest of all times in 2015.. stay tuned..

November 29th, 2014 at 12:38 pm

@Brando…..I too think things get lost in translation. I just now read the new thread where Rafa says he won’t get back to his 2013 level…..some things translated in the article sounded a little off to me. Yes, these translations can get misconstrued, imo. The real thing we know for sure……Roger 17…Rafa 14…Novak 7…

November 29th, 2014 at 12:43 pm

Toni Nadal, despite being associated with one of the much talked about player of the current era, is fumbling in his assessment and analysis. Roger Federer has won the maximum numbger of Grand Slam titles as of now. But, the GREATNESS does not lie in numbers, but on the way a player plays the game, at any venue, at any surface. Out of 14 GS won by Nadal, over a period of almost 10 years, 9 were in Roland Garros. Only 5 elsewhere in a period of 10 years. That clearly indicates that he is a singled surface player, with occasional successes elsewhere. Further, those who says Nadal is greater or equal to Federer, should put forth their analysis on the game of respective players, to make their claim meaningful.

Most persons misunderstand the meaning GOAT. GOAT is does not mean Maximum number titles / Grand Slams. GOAT means how great a particular player’s game is.

Grow up guyes.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:47 pm

@okiegal:”” The real thing we know for sure……Roger 17…Rafa 14…Novak 7…”” Spot on! This stat lines up how they are perceived ultimately and is the deal breaker in the end.

November 29th, 2014 at 12:54 pm

Oh, and another thing we know for sure is the fact that Uncle downplays his nephew every chance he gets. I truly believe he uses psychological tactics to try to make Rafa a tougher competitor…..but having said that he could very well think that Roger is GOAT…..I think its a premature subject until they all retire, jmo……

November 29th, 2014 at 12:56 pm

toni is a tad mean but i think he says this stuff to motivate rafa.

after all, he claims fed is goat by virtue of the number of titles. but we all know rafa is just 3 slams behind fed. that’s not much. rafa already has more masters, more dc titles, a gold medal in singles, and if he wins australia he’ll have 2 career slams. if rafa ties or even passes 17, then the debate will be much more questionable. fed has way more wtf titles, and way more weeks at number 1 (nole will possibly pass rafa in the spring), and more year end number 1s. but if rafa passes him in slams, then the other issues will be thrown into the mix.

maybe that’s what rafa means when he has “two more years” – two more to fight for slams? i don’t know.

like okie says, things are often lost in translation. and taken out of context, etc., so we can’t know for sure what toni or rafa meant.

but i do think these comments by toni are meant to light a fire under rafa, as if he needs it. i am sure he’s raring to go after all the setbacks last year.

so we’ll have 3 slam contenders – rafa, delpo, and andy – all vying to be their best in 2015, which will make for some stiff competition for all.

November 29th, 2014 at 1:04 pm

@Jane…..great read….totally agree. I should have added a little more about your guy. He is not to be left out of any of this discussion totally. I know he’s behind these other two regarding the GOAT bunk, but the way I see it now , Novak is physically in great shape atm, which is a big plus for him. It might get down to the survival of the fittest….throw the age factor in, who knows what the finished product will be?? Novak is a beast!!

November 29th, 2014 at 1:21 pm

Roger is more of an all court player than Rafa fair enough?however i disagree in that Novak is more of an all court player than Rafa,Rafa is the only player on tour with multiple GS titles on all 3 surfaces,where Novak has multiple GS on two,OK fair enough the bulk happen to be on clay,just like the bulk of Novaks are on HCs,if you take out clay Rafa would still have 5 GS off his best surface,take out HCs which is Novaks best surface he would have 2 GS,Rafa would still have almost as many GS as Novak has in his career to date,why do we take out a perfectly legitimate surface for one player to big up the achievements of another?to add Rafa has won multiple GS multiple years,Novaks done it once,has won major titles on all surfaces in 2008 with the Olympic gold,and in 2010 FO,W,USO,also 2013 where he won the FO and USO,Novak won the AO,W,USO in 2011,Novaks won on two surfaces in 2011,but has not won multiple GS on all surfaces,im not setting out to belittle Novak,but i think people should think about what they are posting before they start to belittle one player in favour of another, as nothing im saying cannot be stated as been factually incorrect….

November 29th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

who on this thread started to ” belittle one player in favour of another” hippy? who was suggesting novak’s achievements are greater? anyone?

November 29th, 2014 at 1:35 pm

okie, no worries. the “goat debate” is centred on rafa and fed, not nole. the fact that nole has achieved what he has while playing against 2 goat contenders makes it all the more striking for me. maybe he’ll win a few more slams and reach double digits. that’d be cool, but not necessary. btw, i know what you mean; it’ll be weird for me when nole retires. but i’ve watch this sport long before he came along and will happily do so after he’s gone, too.

November 29th, 2014 at 1:39 pm

Jane look at the post @12.33pm….

November 29th, 2014 at 1:41 pm

oh i see hippy; it’s the “clay” thing. part of that comes from the fact that nadal has been *so dominant* on clay that it sometimes outshines his other achievements. however, anyone with access to stats can see that while rafa is clearly the king of clay, he is more than a clay specialist and has been very successful off clay too. because so much of your post was about comparing rafa to nole, i thought you meant someone was talking up nole to belittle rafa, but the 2 posts here that bring up rafa as a “clay player” are more about the federer comparison. that could be because fed and nadal fans know that goat is on the line, so i am guessing you won’t stop hearing these sorts of comparisons any time soon? i have mixed feelings about the whole “goat” idea. it’s hard to prove. but because rafa’s getting closer to fed’s number of slam titles, it’ll likely remain an on-going topic for debate.

November 29th, 2014 at 1:49 pm

@Jane 1:49…..I agree totally with your last three sentences…..the GOAT deal is a moot point for me, but a big deal for so many others! I think the subject has been beat to death!!

November 29th, 2014 at 1:54 pm

Federer and Novak both are better than Nadal. When Nadal plays he always hitting his opponents back hand and wins most of points. Federer and Novak always play their full game not just hitting others back hand. If you take that one shot out of Nadal’s game then he is nothing.

November 29th, 2014 at 2:04 pm

But leaving that shot in his arsenal……and boom baby, he’s DYNAMITE!!!!

VAMOS, Rafa enter the coming year with a BANG, that’s what I’m talkin’ about!!

Good luck to all the players going into the new year, especially the injury plagued one’s like DelPo, for instance, bless him, he’s been out so long, hope the gentle giant has fully recovered!

November 29th, 2014 at 2:19 pm

@Brando November 29th, 2014 at 12:11 pm
In fact it was a reply to two questions in the middle of a longer interview with many questions.
That part of the interview went like this:
Interviewer: Do you agree with me that Roger Federer is the best of history ?
Toni: Yes I believe so. The numbers tell it. Federer is the best player of history together with Rod Laver. Unfortunately for us.
Interviewer: I agree with you, and I also agree with Martina Navratilova who says that Rafael Nadal is the better of them two. Which brings me to my second question: How can the best tennis player of history lose 23 times and not win a slam against him since 2007 ?
Toni: I don’t know…. (the rest of the reply is more or less mentioned in the thread above)

November 29th, 2014 at 2:36 pm

thanks for providing the context wilfried. do you have a link for the whole interview?

November 29th, 2014 at 2:46 pm

@wilfried…… Thanks for more of the interview, which is easier for me to comprehend.

November 29th, 2014 at 2:57 pm

Sienna @12.22pm November 29th who is then?….

November 29th, 2014 at 2:57 pm

I don’t care what Toni thinks, but if I were a fed fan, I’d be pissed that djojovic is viewed in a good light despite the fed propoganda profanity the last 11 years.

It’s like saying roddick was the 2nd best 2002-2006 player & the most trim, intelligent & unlazy opponent just because federer humiliated him a few times in slams (roddick had not been lucky enough to fluke enough semis of slams, masters cups & masters 1000).
I wouldn’t trust roddick & his history of “opinions”.
The utterly abusive clown said he hated djokovic’s success & couldn’t take federer’s losses seriously. Truly indefensible.

November 29th, 2014 at 3:02 pm

What uncle Toni didn’t mention was 14 is moving while 17 is stuck in mud.

Uncle Toni is good at mind games.

November 29th, 2014 at 3:11 pm

Novak had different hardcourt surface slams & improved on grass despite not playing tune up grass events.
Nadal dominated on clay & also got lucky because Novak didn’t fight to be a legend, had trouble accepting the need to work much harder & stay ambitious, and sometimes didn’t play with good nutrition & fitness.
Novak is not all focused on tennis & became sick & distracted too many times since 2011. He enjoys playing at the end of the year more than other parts of the year, so he needs to change his attitude & get more respect for being a legend.
He’s an example of an on-surface versatile talent that beat the very best despite not being very young & having so many problems & lacking slam titles.

November 29th, 2014 at 3:20 pm

Nadals lucky because Novak didnt fight to be a legend?eh thats Novaks fault then,one cant blame Rafa for that,maybe he wasnt good enough to become a legend back then,Novak won a his 1st GS IN 2008 and it was 3 years before winning another,and in that time Fedal were dominating the GS,if people are saying it Rafa was lucky then they surely have to say the same about Roger,been as this pair were the only two winning the GS in that three year period….

November 29th, 2014 at 3:34 pm

^Apart from Delpo who won the USO in 2009^….

November 29th, 2014 at 3:46 pm

Novak lived with stress since childhood so he was just happy to be good in tennis.
His parents had to convince a tennis academy to give him a chance in tennis.

He didn’t believe he could win 5 slams, let alone many masters 1000/wtfs because he was not doing well with Todd Martin, had physical weakness during 2009-2010 and was ridiculed by the thuggish press circus involving hater fed & novak’s other haters (usa media & roddick in the physical confrontation at the us open, which was the arena for USA players to bend over for Fed mercy & friendship).

Pat McEnroe was keen on diminishing Novak’s character & talent level to make fed look great. Even when mirka called stan a cry baby, he still said federer was making their match “too difficult” in wtf semi.
Novak wouldn’t follow the “if you can’t beat fedal, join their bandwagon” script.

When Novak reversed his fortune, fedal fanatics trashed his wins & couldn’t accept that he was a legend until he beat fedal many times within 2 years & took down the pretenders hewitt & roddick. Fedal suddenly looked elderly at age 26-29 & all the 2003-2009 flukes became journeymen to novak’s kingdom.

If Novak wasn’t playing, we’d only hear the fedal fans & media argue over the slams instead of the overall versatility & improvements of a 27-28 year old legend. Laver & rosewall are even more important now since we see how great their strategies & longevity were, compared to fedal. They may have fewer slams if they were on the same surfaces as now, but they’d certainly meet in many slams & neither would have a one-side dominant record.

November 29th, 2014 at 4:51 pm

Nadal might have won more GS if he was not so prone to INJURY. Hopefully he will have an injury free 2015 season in which case I am sure he will at least win two slams which will put him just one behind Federer. I agree Nadal is not endowed with the skills of a Fed or Nole, but he uses the little he has to full advantage. For A One Dimensional Player as Fed designated him, when Nadal was lasing him right left and center. I give Nadal MUCH CREDIT FOR, HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT despite the obvious odds. Go Nadal Make 2015 YOURS TO WIN, WIN , WIN. I WILL EVOKE THE UNIVERSE ON YOUR BEHALF .Whatever it takes MY HOUSEHOLD WILL BE IN YOUR CORNER.You ARE A CHAMPION. YOUR BEST IT YET TO COME. GLORY BE.

November 29th, 2014 at 5:00 pm

Roger would have had the better H2H against all tennis players “IF” there were more tournaments on grass. Even though he is 33, I am sure he will win at least one more slam in 2015. I must give credit to Roger for transforming his game from being the best of fast court to the warrior of slow courts knowing ATP have slowed them down for obvious reasons.

I am sure Roger is looking forward to 2015 just as much as Nadal, Nole, Delpo, Stan. Explosive field. Should be an absolute treat!!

November 29th, 2014 at 5:46 pm

If the courts were so unfortunate for Feddy, he wouldn’t beat a fluke such as lazy big mouth roddick so often (and the 2004 & 2009 wimbledon results wouldn’t give you something to gloat about).

November 29th, 2014 at 7:01 pm

Mission accomplished. My good uncle has set expectation so low, now I just have to exceed it. As always, I expected to play bad and exceed my wildest expectations.

November 29th, 2014 at 8:00 pm

“During a recent radio interview in Spain, Uncle Toni fired up the GOAT debate this off-season stating that there is no argument that his son, Rafael Nadal, is not as good as Roger Federer and may not even be as good as Novak Djokovic!”

His Son?

Pure mind games. Anyone can see through this transparency.

November 29th, 2014 at 8:21 pm

Uncle Toni has echo’d Rafa’s own lines – Fed is the so-called GOAT if one must be conjured up..while Novak ees more complete player, no??

My own belief is that there will be parlor games 30 – 40 years from now , not to mention 5 years from now who was the best in this time – and all 3 guys will have their champions. Roger has Slamcount!! But Slamcount isn’t all she wrote in a tennis career evaluation, and much of his Slamcount!! was padded statistically in the Weak Era of the early 2000s.
Rafa may end his career with more Masters and incomparable clay stats and solid basis among his fans that he would have moved past Roger in Slams but for the events he lost to Djoker and the times starting in 2009 where playing Nole was so rough he got injured and missed many opportunities.
Djoker may end up the only player with a positive H2H over Fed and Rafa. He may be like Gonzalez, Borg and Laver – true legends. Others may have a bigger Slamcount!!! – but like the other 3, Nole may well find another path than just wins at a few tennis events.
It may well be that real tennis cognosceti may say that all around skillwise, and playing all surfaces – Novak Djokovic at his absolute best was better than any other player at their best. With highly honorable exceptions of Pete Sampras on grass and Nadal on clay.

November 29th, 2014 at 8:31 pm

@Chris Ford1………You are gonna get in serious trouble on this forum for linking Fed with a weak era of tennis…….just wait and see!! Lol

November 29th, 2014 at 11:24 pm

Todays players, past and present, and tennis historians generally agree that when talking about GOAT it starts with Slam count, NOT including anything else. After that, then, you bring in other records such as #1 and overall titles. Fans opinions trying to muddy the waters otherwise does not change that.
Fed, as of now, and as of several years ago, is the undeniable current GOAT. If fans want to talk about what “ifs” going forward, well go fo it. But that is “maybe” then, not now. This poster, has said, and will continue to say, that Feds achievements will stand the test of time, even with the current players who are playing, and will be above all. And as time goes by, his achievements in the mens game will stand out even more.

November 29th, 2014 at 11:30 pm

Rafa would have lots more slams if they were on clay too. The back and forth banter is rather silly and childish…..if….if….if….The slams are two on hard one on clay and one on grass. Nothing is ever going to change that. They’ve won their titles with whatever surface was before them. What’s the big deal? We need to move on. Records are made to be broken…..the only one I feel confident that won’t be is Isner/Mahut at the 3 day extravaganza at Wimby. No TB in the 5th set is crazy, off subject, but that’s a ridiculous format, imo.

November 29th, 2014 at 11:39 pm

but there is one person here who knows the true meaning of GOAT.. and to him I say: Bingo!!

puny people will talk using “IF’s”, “may”, “might”..

November 29th, 2014 at 11:43 pm

some people here turn a blind eye to some IF’s but cant stand when its used against them.. funny..

so lets see who are those users who used “IF’s” to make their point:
Brando GOAT Poster, Jane, Hippy, Gee, CV, Okie

only to be retaliated with “if’s” by:
myself, John Thomson and Sanjeev..

yet Okie is worried abt what I had to say in my retaliation.. ahh, if you want war you got it..

November 29th, 2014 at 11:54 pm

@Tennisland…..you need to scroll up and check the Times of the posts……Sanjeev post 2:04, my retaliation post 2:19. Tennisland post 5:46 my retaliation post 11:39. I chose to ignore all the other “if” posts…..I don’t really want a war, I just want to take a stand for my guy like everyone else does for their favorite…..hey, baby, I’m a lover, not a fighter!! Lol

November 30th, 2014 at 12:39 am

^”the girl is mine, the dog gone girl is mine…”
MJ
;)

November 30th, 2014 at 12:49 am

@Skeezer……I’m at a loss on that last post…..fill me in…….okay??

November 30th, 2014 at 1:14 am

@Skeezer……never mind, I got it!! MJ….Michael Jackson…..song lyrics. I googled it and there it was. I don’t remember it, not a fan of MJ…..but did find the punch line…..or whatever you want to call it…..funny. I will you tube it and listen to it. I’m sure I’ve heard before……I’m on it!!

November 30th, 2014 at 1:38 am

@Skeezer

I just listened to it, and do remember the song……..that’s been many moons ago……

November 30th, 2014 at 1:44 am

TennisLand ifs are silly your quite right,however theres nothing in my posts thats not actually factually correct….

November 30th, 2014 at 1:57 am

tennisland,
this is just to say,
i am a nole fan
and i ate the 2 plums
in the icebox
they were sweet and delicious.
i don’t care about GOATdom.
you can have it.
i ate the plums,
after all.
;)

November 30th, 2014 at 2:07 am

I dont really care about the GOAT debate,the only thing i want and have ever wanted is my favorite to be given credit for his achievements,i dont think thats too much to ask,although it seems that way on this forum….

November 30th, 2014 at 2:12 am

Okie im a lover not a fighter lol,The Girl is Mine sang by Michael Jackson and Sir Paul Mcartney,they did sing another duet together,but i cant remember the name….

November 30th, 2014 at 2:18 am

Toni Nadal are huge ego guy.

The arrogance which always complains of a schedule, the kind of surface and the speed. When you can’t win.

The remark which despises Sampras era of Nadal. Isn’t indoor WTF fair? But is there no dissatisfaction in the case that MS to which aren’t bound exists in only clay?
lol
Shame team

anyway. Roger is always best for me.

Great person with the great achievement which isn’t only in the court.

The 1st place of favorite player a tennis fan chooses.
13 year continuation.
The sportsmanship prize ATP players choose, 9 times.
Roger is a true legend.

November 30th, 2014 at 3:10 am

@Chick…….Tennisland tucked his or her tail and boogied on…..I thought a battle was getting ready to take place…….Tennisland where are you??? LOL

When I read Skeezers post, I couldn’t remember what MJ stood for……silly me. I liked Michael when he was a little boy, but as he got older not so much. Loved the Beatles, but after they split, lost interest.

November 30th, 2014 at 3:12 am

How can rafa ever be considered GOAT other than on a surface called clay? It’s so top heavy. No one can argue it.

How can rafa ever be considered GOAT when he has not won WTF?

How can rafa ever be considered GOAT when there is always a shroud of secrecy when he takes his time out from the game and then come back and win tournaments after long absences? Like 7 months long absences? Huh?

How can Rafa be considered GOAT when he is clearly the King of Clay, but not the King of the all round courts.

I don’t get it.

Strangely, I think that Novak will surpass all of them. He is already in the GOAT talk, and so he should be.

Jane, I don’t get it about the plums but I am being a bit slow this morning! :)

November 30th, 2014 at 4:59 am

If we are going by the numbers of grand slams. Try to remember Fed fans that he won several of them against much weaker players before Rafa came along. I don’t understand his Uncle Toni saying what he did, but I certainly disagree. I think all three of them can be considered one of the best of all times. How can you be considered the goat when the second guy beats you.

November 30th, 2014 at 5:56 am

“”Strangely, I think that Novak will surpass all of them.””:yeah you really are mad! Fed is the GOAT, for once skeezer correctly posted and was spot on in saying grand slams are the conversation starter and you are saying Novak will surpass Fed: meaning he’ll win at least 10 slams from age 28 since that is what it shall take to surpass. Lmfao: smoking some of that good stuff before posting? Your backing a player who’s 7/14 in grand slam finals, 3/12 in last 3 grand slams and almost (sorry nole fans but there is no other word for it) choked up in his last grand slam final. And you’re backing him to surpass Fed! Only your idiotic, baseless slurs at Rafael’s injury issues match your ridiculous assertion there. Like your ceaseless lowly, malice ridden, low on sense and evidence but full of buffoonery post about Rafael this is just another example of how ridiculously inept, agenda ridden views of idiocy you consistently post here.

November 30th, 2014 at 7:15 am

@tennisland: correct. Here’s my next IF: if I scroll faster then I’ll stand a chance to avoid the farce you call posts on here.

November 30th, 2014 at 7:20 am

Yes @maaaaadmax you are indeed maaaad. All this fed drooling has damaged your brain. Now just jog along and take your meds!

November 30th, 2014 at 7:38 am

Federer or Nadal Greatest of ALL TIME?

How well fedal would’ve played in the 70s and 80s era? With the rackets that don’t provide 3000+ rpm groundstrokes?

November 30th, 2014 at 7:57 am

@Sirius: how would rafa tuck at his butt in 1910 when they had to wear trousers? How would Fed carress his hair in 1913 when he’d have a bushy moustache in the way?

November 30th, 2014 at 8:07 am

^ tucking butt and carressing hair don’t require skills

November 30th, 2014 at 8:36 am

@Brando…..Well, you’re all bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning! Your post at 7:15….why don’t you tell us how you really feel……LOVED IT!! LOL

@7:20…..He or she called me out and wanted a war! I hope you didn’t scroll too fast not to notice that my “if” posts came after their “ifs”…..Yes I retaliated…..how childish of me!!!

November 30th, 2014 at 8:38 am

@8.36: skill? How erroneous of you even to bring up the notion of it. What I was getting at was that we can all raise points of how such and such would fare in era x, but ultimately that’s a moot point and I’d say a ridiculous point to use against any player. Put simply: like in life you have your time and that’s it. It’s pretty stupid to detract from a players achievements because oh they played will lillies not racquets in 1845! Lol: you only have your time and you make the most of it. And until a time travel machine presents itself then players always will be judged on what they did in their time and not have they would fare in another. A case of what you did as opposed to mere speculation lacking in any factual, certain crumb of truth and is nothing other than guesswork. It’s like Roger Federer said: if your a great player you’ll find a way to adapt to any era. Fedal are universally regarded as great players by present and former players so they’ve got nothing to answer to in the face of such-ultimately- silly questions posed by detractors.

November 30th, 2014 at 8:51 am

@okiegal: lol my delight thanks for that. And good: stick up for yourself. You always do on here and I appreciate how excellently you give back what gets flogged your way by silly trolls at times.It’s unfortunate to deal with but deal with it splendidly is what you do. I tip my hat to you on that front. And me? Lol, I can be accused of anything if one wishes to do so, but being shy and not saying what I think sure ain’t one of them!

November 30th, 2014 at 8:58 am

^if you’re thinking that i’m trying to belittle any of federer and nadal, then let me tell you, i’m not.

It’s just the “greatest of ALL TIME” thing that annoys me. To me, in a way, it’s disrespecting to the legends of the past. One cannot simply compare eras. So how can one claim that player X or Y is the best of All Time?

November 30th, 2014 at 9:03 am

Sirius…..I have said the same thing from time time, it should be rephrased….GOTT greatest of their time, because all time is infinite, until the end of time??? IMO…..

Thanks, Brando, sometime I let the comments fall on deaf ears, but sometime I can’t sit there and not say something. You and Chick are right, why can’t we appreciate all the players achievements past and present and get on with life. These arguments never solve anything, because I don’t think either fan base is gonna budge!! How long have we been reading these same arguments and nothing ever changes.

November 30th, 2014 at 9:31 am

^that’s perfectly fine and I find your stance agreeable in the main. It’s simply a case of measuring achievements really and ultimately grand slams. Inherently the tag of GOAT is a flawed claim for obvious reasons that you have touched upon, but we are human and it seems we need order more than anything and in the world of tennis we need a numero uno just to feel that sense of order… Even if it is a flawed assertion that we wish to push as a fact.

November 30th, 2014 at 9:37 am

@Brando 9:37……you got a point!

November 30th, 2014 at 10:01 am

It must be off-season. First, his son? That’s a good one. And he doesn’t actually say that Novak is better. He said he doesn’t know. He also said Fed is up there with Laver. Which is the common opinion for a lot of people.
It’s a known fact that Toni never compliments Rafa in public. I don’t really understand how their relationship works, but it does work somehow. As of now, Djokovic is obviously not in the GOAT talk. How can he be with only 7 slams? Don’t get me wrong. 7 slams is a great number, but not compared to 17. We had 2 new slam winners this year, who knows what will happen in the next few years.
Personally, for me there is no GOAT. That is just my view of course. There will always be debates about it.

November 30th, 2014 at 10:01 am

people here cannot comprehend GOAT simply because their idol is not in that place.. fair enough..

GOAT as per definition means “never surpassed”.. all tennis fans know tennis players play for Slam glory.. so to the disappointment of many, the GOAT in tennis will be decided by whose got the most Slams.. as of now its Roger.. Nadal is on par with Pete.. Nadal has not achieved any other feat greater than Sampras..

before Roger, Sampras was the GOAT.. everybody plays by the same rules back then and now.. nothing has changed..

November 30th, 2014 at 10:06 am

Tennisland im not exactly sure what your expecting me to say,not once have you seen me actually deny Roger is the GOAT,or is a fantastic player,making more history,or belittled his achievements,the only thing i have ever done is be happy and say Rafa is a legend and history maker in his own right,SO LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR ONCE AND FOR ALL,ROGER IS THE GOAT,AND ALWAYS WILL BE,HIS ACHIEVEMENTS WILL NEVER BE SURPASSED,BUT AS IM NOT ALLOWED TO BE HAPPY AND ENJOY RAFAS ACHIEVEMENTS,I WILL SAY THIS,RAFAS ACHIEVMENTS ARE CRAP,THEY MEAN NOTHING,HE MEANS NOTHING,NOBODY WILL REMEMBER HIM WHEN HE RETIRES,THERE IS ONE GOAT AND ONLY ONE GOAT,RAFA IS NOT AN ALL TIME GREAT,AND NEVER WILL BE,SO THERE YA GO I HOPE YOUR 100% HAPPY….

November 30th, 2014 at 11:06 am

HC. Why are you dancing to the tune of a fedfanatic, namely @ TennisLand? Am really surprised at your post at 11.06 am even though it was meant to be sarcastic.
BTW fed is not the Goat. He has to beat Rafa first to earn that title IMO.

November 30th, 2014 at 11:33 am

Giles yes it was sarcastic,nothing more to add,just venting my spleen….

November 30th, 2014 at 11:49 am

Sirius fantastic post @9.03am….

November 30th, 2014 at 11:50 am

IK dont understand Fed fans been annoyed with Uncle.T saying Roger is the GOAT anyway,surely they should be happy,hes saying exactly what they want to hear,nothing everything he says has an ulterior motive behind it,people are so cynical and so quick to believe the worst….

November 30th, 2014 at 12:01 pm

https://twitter.com/rogerfederer/status/539066997640683521
@maaaadmax. This one’s forrrrr you. I think fed wants you to kiss his “victory wound” better! Have fun! Lol

November 30th, 2014 at 1:00 pm

@alison,

Thanks. But I think it’s best for me to avoid goat talk. I get either confused or annoyed, sometimes both

November 30th, 2014 at 1:04 pm

The thing about goat debates is they go on for ever. God invented this debate to keep useless minions busy. Humble people know and acknowledge the goat and goat owner and move on.

November 30th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

there just as many RAFA fanatics here..

unless Nadal surpasses Roger, he is always one step below Roger in the ladder of the greats..

you say you cannot compare different eras… that is exactly why ATP has established records, to deem one person as the greatest of them all.. as long Roger holds all the important records, I do not see any one else as the GOAT.. there no debate here based on established records.. mayb for you RAFA Fanatics..

November 30th, 2014 at 1:20 pm

let me requote Uncle Toni ” Federer has won 17 Grand Slam titles, Rafael has won 14.”

you see, Toni is also using the empirical formula for the GOAT debate.. oh wait, some people are blind regarding that stat and slip to some other useless stats.. keep going, but it will not get you any closer..

November 30th, 2014 at 1:31 pm

This is for Humble Rafa.
No matter what you say and how much you dislike Roger Federer, he will always be the GOAT, and that hurts you. I am sorry for you.

November 30th, 2014 at 1:45 pm

SIRIUS says:
It’s just the “greatest of ALL TIME” thing that annoys me. To me, in a way, it’s disrespecting to the legends of the past.

Hippy Chick Says:
Sirius fantastic post @9.03am….

Really?? tell me you are not serious.. lets ask the legend themselves:
Rod Laver quotes: “When I look at Federer, with what he’s accomplished, against the competition that he’s accomplished it with, I’d have to say I would think that Roger is the greatest player.
Sampras quotes: “It’s always been so clear to me that Roger is the greatest,” Sampras

so why is SIRIUS and HIPPYCHICK patting each others back on the notion that “Roger federer is the GOAT is a disrespect to other greats??”

beats me..

November 30th, 2014 at 3:12 pm

Tennisland ive already said hes the bloody GOAT for effs sake,maybe some people agree with each other because they respect the achievements of other players like i do with Roger,and like Sirius does with Rafa,and its possible that Sirius doesnt even care about the GOAT debate,not everyone does even some Federer fans(although im sure he will speak for himself)seriously your become obsessed with the whole thing,seems your just trying to entice a quarrel?….

November 30th, 2014 at 3:21 pm

Tennis-X just wondering is there any truth in the rumour that Rafa and girlfriend Xisca are engaged,and also that she is pregant?….

November 30th, 2014 at 3:24 pm

I dont care if SIRIUS cares about the GOAT debate or HPPICHICK cares about the GOAT debate..

if you dont care, dont make/support classless statements like “greatest of ALL TIME is disrespecting to the legends of the past.” because it is not even remotely closer to reality..

don’t voice an opinion for the greats.. they have given theirs..

November 30th, 2014 at 3:30 pm

Roger is the GOAT and also Rafael’s pigeon.

November 30th, 2014 at 3:40 pm

^Why dont you tell us all how you really feel?^

November 30th, 2014 at 3:41 pm

Hi James ;))….

November 30th, 2014 at 3:43 pm

I have nothing to say about that.. but I will hand it over to Rafael el classico:

“Everyone who is around this world knows that the tennis is not only the Grand Slams. There are a lot of things outside the Grand Slams. Roger has an unbelievable record outside of Grand Slams. For sure, in Grand Slams, he the player who win more.”

November 30th, 2014 at 3:44 pm

Hi James as well.. ;-))))

November 30th, 2014 at 3:44 pm

”
Roger is the GOAT and also Rafael’s pigeon.”: that’s what you call summing up the entire reality of the matter in a few words, brilliantly put James!

November 30th, 2014 at 3:49 pm

so based on the terminology James has used, Rafa is Roger’s pigeon in terms of GRAND SLAMS..

i think this sounds much more deeper than James’s

November 30th, 2014 at 3:51 pm

Hi hippy chick, how have you been? :)

November 30th, 2014 at 3:51 pm

ya.. brilliantly put James..

FYI.. it can go both ways, no??

November 30th, 2014 at 3:52 pm

let me rephrase, Rafa is Roger’s pigeon in terms of GRAND SLAMS and WTF..

how silly of me..

November 30th, 2014 at 3:58 pm

Brando! Always good to read your posts, mate. When it comes to this GOAT debate, I try not to use a lot of words anymore. I like both Rafa and Roger. Whoever has more Slams when they both retire will most probably be considered the greater player. Let them fight their battle on the tennis court. I’m just gonna enjoy their tennis ;)

November 30th, 2014 at 4:05 pm

yep belittling Roger to a pigeon is not using a lot of words for sure in the GOAT debate.. have to give you that..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:13 pm

I would take Roger as a pigeon to Rafa as a skunk anyday in my GOAT debate of few words….

November 30th, 2014 at 4:19 pm

@james: likewise with you james, enjoy your posts also. Must say though: I do wish you post more often since you are one of the Rafa posters I most enjoy reading on here so your absence is felt. At the same time: I cannot blame you for not posting at times when considering some of the madness that goes on here (just look this thread and the random, Rafa obsessed loon who’s bothering others here). Re Rafael and Roger: spot on and I agree. The battles on court and its enjoyable to watch. Time will ultimately tell what it is to be in this debate: not a back and forth with some worryingly overly invested fanatics in the winter!

November 30th, 2014 at 4:22 pm

I just woke up from a long winters nap, and the GOAT Bart is still going on. I would sat I was shocked, but not. Tennisland wanted a war! LOL

Uncle T’s GOAT comment is nothing more than reverse psychology……another ploy to get Rafa fired up going into next year. Now I’m not saying he doesn’t believe this, I’m confident he does…….but why would he broadcast his feelings to the whole world about his nephew…..relatives just don’t do that w/o a reason…..ulterior motive, IMO. He has always used this psychology crap on Rafa. This is my feeling, no??

November 30th, 2014 at 4:22 pm

From my first sentence of my above post….I think I’m still napping….LOL……should say GOAT debate…..should say…..I would say and not I would sat….I’m sure you smart TXers read between the lines and knew what I meant…..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:27 pm

do you really think Rafa is always waiting for his uncle to provide him with reverse psychology so that he can get fired up.. so thats your basis of uncle Toni’s comment.. amazing deduction..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:27 pm

when you are at war, there happens to be a lot of name-calling.. just like how James started name-calling.. hence, i was not wrong..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:29 pm

@Tennisland 4:19…That’s a stinky comment….LOL

November 30th, 2014 at 4:30 pm

@James 3:40 is an equally stinky comment.. LOLL..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:32 pm

“turn a blind eye” seems to be the name of the game here..

but two can play the game..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:37 pm

@Tennisland…..My comment didn’t say anything about Rafa waiting for anything from Uncle Tony. Coaches do use reverse psychology and I have known a few that have admitted it, my brother for one and my son’s high school baseball coach. I read Rafa’s book and the gist of it was there…. how his Uncle would put him through all sorts of obstacles to make him mentally tougher. I’m just saying I think there might be more to it……and there might not be….and btw my deduction is as amazing as anything you say on here…….imho!

November 30th, 2014 at 4:46 pm

@Okie

here is my deduction..

Uncle Toni really believes that Roger is the GOAT and a better player than Rafa..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:47 pm

just as all the other greats of the game believe Roger is the better player.. Rafa will get his chance when he surpasses Roger using the reverse psychology help of his uncle..

November 30th, 2014 at 4:48 pm

@Tennisland…….In my post at 4:22 I clearly stated that: “I’m not saying that he doesn’t believe this, I’m confident he does”……

Your last sentence……Oh my gosh how I hope that comes to pass!!

November 30th, 2014 at 5:13 pm

given the fighter Rafa is, he is going to go for the kill in the next 2 yrs given that he had a long enough injury time out.. but Roger and Nole are rite there as well after a successful 2014..

November 30th, 2014 at 5:23 pm

^^^I agree….Tennisland, my fingers are worn flat smooth out, I’m going to church…….I might hear
a sermon admonishing me about how I could be a person by keeping my mouth shut!! Lol

November 30th, 2014 at 5:37 pm

^^^^Should say “be a better person”…..I told you my fingers were getting tired…

November 30th, 2014 at 7:15 pm

Since tiny part of this thread is about Nole, the #1 in the world, for No1e fans, “Jacob’s creek” made a story about Nole, this is the traielr, coming out in January for AO:

http://youtu.be/5Q0pTlHoq8I

BTW, “Jacob’s creek” has some really good wines;)

November 30th, 2014 at 10:33 pm

^^ “trailer”…I can’t help it, can I ?:(

November 30th, 2014 at 10:41 pm

@Wog…..that will be so neat! I hope it will air everywhere. I watched him on 60 minutes and it was very good. His fans have something to look forward to…..Thanks for the link!

November 30th, 2014 at 10:56 pm

“but in the end, everyone who believes what he wants. It is perfectly right. ”

This is an intriguing philosophical stuff from Tony, but I am not sure if it has been said with some conviction or like Rafa, Tony too has this communication barrier to express his feelings in a forthright manner ? There is no doubt that Roger has a better record than anybody who has played Tennis in the Professional circuit. But there are still some milestones he is yet to cross. He is yet to win a Grand Slam in his career and has also not managed to make a sweep of Master Series titles. So, it is a bit dicey to say that he has achieved everything that Tennis has to offer in terms of glory which is pivotal to the GOAT debate. Nonetheless, at the moment inarguably he is the best of the current generation and Tony has only stated the obvious.

It is also pleasing to note that Tony has so much high regards of the abilities of Novak who he is rating as a better player than even his own niece. But this is highly debatable as well as controversial. Record wise, Rafa is much ahead of Novak and game wise it is difficult to say if he is anyway inferior to him. There are strenghs and weakness in the game of both the players and Rafa has a better forehand as well as a consistent serve. While from Novak’s side, you can say he has the best return as well as the ferocious double handed back hand down the line shot in the game. So, it is pretty much even and is difficult to choose game wise as to who is the better player and so it must be put to rest. So, the question of who is the better player can only be inferred in terms of titles accumulated and considering that parameter, Rafa is now way ahead of Novak who has some serious catching to do.

November 30th, 2014 at 11:32 pm

@wog boy,
Nice vid on Nole, but Jacobs Creek?
You must visit Napa/Sonoma vineyards and varietals. They have won against the best European Wines.

November 30th, 2014 at 11:52 pm

@Michael…..great post!!

December 1st, 2014 at 12:00 am

@Skeezer…..Are you an average connoiseur of fine wines or are you the GOAT connoisseur? LOL. My son is a welder and he worked in the area of Napa Valley and he said it was beautiful! He said he could live there. He Was really impressed with all of the lakes as he does the tournament fishing circuit when he can work it in……he also loves wine…..that could have been the main attraction……lol He worked around Hanford but thought it was rather dirty and nasty…..

December 1st, 2014 at 12:12 am

@Oki,
Mmy pleasure

@skeezer,
I personally prefer and drink wines from Hunter Valley wine region, two hours north of Sydney and Western Australian wines (Houghton wines), I am white wine drinker, not big fan of South Australian wines but Jacob’s creek wines are popular so must be good…besides, my wife drinks them..

December 1st, 2014 at 1:14 am

Okiegal,

Thanks !!

Ostensibly, Tony’s admiration and respect for Novak is much greater because he was the only player who challenged Rafa and emerged victorious when he was at the zenith of his career in 2011. At one time, things looked so hopeless for Rafa that he was literally afraid to face Novak and his morale was demoralizingly low. Much the same, you would say for Roger against Rafa whenever these players meet that it would seem Roger would lose mentally even before the match begins. However, it is the credit of Rafa that he managed to turn this around and give Novak a run for his money.

December 1st, 2014 at 1:49 am

Wogboy im a spirit drinker myself Gin,Vodka,Bacardi,Ciders my favorite tipple though,nice link BTW….
Tennisland you sure as hell are beating this argument to the ground….
Hi James nice to read you,im good thanks,busy getting ready for the yuletide as i dont actually celebrate christmas as such….
Michael fantastic post well thought out as usual….

December 1st, 2014 at 1:51 am

Alison – Thanks !!

December 1st, 2014 at 1:52 am

Can i ask again again is there any truth in the rumour that Rafa and Xicca are engaged,and she is expecting a baby just curious?….

December 1st, 2014 at 1:54 am

If you enjoy Wine, your journey will eventually wind up in the end with Cabernet Sauvignon.
White wines have there place, but Reds are for Heaven only.
I am stuck on Zin and Pinot Noir so far. Working my way to that end of the Cab.

December 1st, 2014 at 1:54 am

@Michael 1:49……Another post spot on…..agree 100%!

December 1st, 2014 at 1:57 am

I save wine and champagne for weddings,christanings etc,i dont like either im afraid,just spirits and cider for me….

December 1st, 2014 at 1:59 am

@Chick…..have not heard one thing about Rafa and his girlfriend. I will do some digging on some other web sites.

December 1st, 2014 at 1:59 am

Alison,

I think Rafa is intelligent enough not to fall in the trap of a marriage and its attentuant pressures when he is perceivably in the peak of his career which might mar his professional chances and ambitions. It is difficult to balance the demands of both your personal as well as professional life. Not many can do that successfully with minor exceptions. May be Xisca is pregnant and she might probably deliver. But marriage might have to wait.

December 1st, 2014 at 2:04 am

If I was a drinker, my drink of choice would have to be a margarita…….if I do have wine it has got to have a slight sweet taste…..but not into drinking that much, hubby loves beer and I hate it!!

December 1st, 2014 at 2:06 am

Okiegal – Thanks once again !!

2014 was a bad year in terms of much acclaimed rivalries as the spectators couldn’t get enough opportunities to witness the clash between the Giants of the game. Let us hope 2015 would turn out to be different and we get to see more such matches involving these players at the top renewing their rivalries with added vigour.

December 1st, 2014 at 2:07 am

@Chick……Where did you hear that??

December 1st, 2014 at 2:07 am

Nice that Rafa and Andy paid tribute to cricketer Phillip Hughes who died after been hit in the head with a ball,such a tragic accident,rather puts all this bickering into perspective….

December 1st, 2014 at 2:08 am

skeezer, this where and how I buy my wine, I will be there in two days time, I might buy and mail some to you:

http://youtu.be/PwCqCxnsksQ

December 1st, 2014 at 2:12 am

Okie i saw it on Rafas website,it came up on one of the links,although Rafas spokesmen/women/people would neither confirm nor deny the rumour,apparantly she has a slight bump,and refused to drink wine,and wanted to stick to water when the family and team all had a meal together hmm….

December 1st, 2014 at 2:14 am

Michael well he always said marraige was for after his career….

December 1st, 2014 at 2:15 am

Wogboy i dont drink wine,but that is truely beautiful scenery,ill watch it all later,as i have to go to work now….

December 1st, 2014 at 2:18 am

@Chick……I just got through searching the web and sue enough saw the same stuff you did…..also they are seen at a jewelry shop looking at rings…..but who knows…..

December 1st, 2014 at 2:28 am

@HC & Okie. Those rumours about Rafa and Xisca are false. The source is a satirical news base similar to the Onion.

December 1st, 2014 at 4:04 am

Alison,

That is another wise decision by Rafa !!!

December 1st, 2014 at 4:24 am

Now we know why Rafa is so great as a human being. Toni is the same. They both are really successful but still remaining the same as they were 15 years ago. Respect

December 1st, 2014 at 4:42 am

https://twitter.com/pedrofullanaser/status/539378737058684928
Rafa started practice today. He’s on schedule.
Vamos Champ!

December 1st, 2014 at 8:29 am

Nice that Rafa and Andy paid tribute to cricketer Phillip Hughes who died after been hit in the head with a ball,such a tragic accident,rather puts all this bickering into perspective…
—
After I paid tribute, I learned more about cricket. I am very impressed someone will play for 5 days and call it a draw.

December 1st, 2014 at 9:50 am

@Giles…..I figured as much. The “baby bump” pic that article showed of Mari, I believe was at a match several months ago. I haven’t checked to be sure what tournament it was but it’s totally possible her nine months would be way past up, if you get my drift……LOL. I’m gonna check that out next….match the blouse with the tourney…..LOL….maybe she doesn’t even like wine, no??

December 1st, 2014 at 12:11 pm

Nadal is not the GOAT. Period.

December 1st, 2014 at 12:37 pm

Humble is a good family man. Don’t spread false rumors.

December 1st, 2014 at 1:06 pm

Fed is not the GOAT. Period.

December 1st, 2014 at 1:37 pm

@Chick
@Giles…….The baby bump pic was Monte Carlo 2011 Rafa vs Andy…..the baby bump would be going on 4yrs old in 2015. That pic was attached to the article November this year. This is too funny! I guess the little one has been in hiding all this time….LOL. Goes to show you can’t believe everything you read, of course we already knew that!! The illicit use of the internet can get way out of line at times…..it’s a shame…

December 1st, 2014 at 1:45 pm

Okie/Giles I didnt think so,as tennis-x wouldve had a thread up on the topic,im glad its not true as i want him to concentrate on his tennis,he and Maria are busy with their careers for the moment,im sure they will both make fantastic parents when the day comes….

December 1st, 2014 at 2:08 pm

You guys!

No one is the current GOAT period!

But there might be one soon according to some!

Here is what Sean Randall said:
“I really felt that if Nadal had won a second Career Grand Slam at the Australian Open becoming the only player in the Open Era to do so, that would have cemented his move (for now) ahead of Federer on the GOAT rankings. That’s my opinion, I stand by it.

According to him, Nadal has another chance of Goatdom next month!

Perhaps he would be right (for now)!

December 1st, 2014 at 3:48 pm

Hey you guys! ( Goonies ),

Wait a sec….so Fed with 17 Slams, Years @1, etc. = no current GOAT?

But….

According to Sean ….. well he ays that if Rafa wins just ONE MORE Slam he is the cemented GOAT?

Ha ha ha.

December 1st, 2014 at 4:53 pm

My take:

NEITHER Fed or Rafa will retire as a singular, unchallenged GOAT.

Fed:

He’ll always have the Rafa h2h. Sorry Fed fans but when you are a player who routinely got whupped by your biggest rival in your own time then how on earth can you be labelled as superior to former greats who you never faced when the biggest one in your time had your number routinely?

It does NOT raise Rafa to GOAT but it just cannot be denied that Nadal has been a undeniable black mark on his career.

I mean no offence by this but:

Everytime those 2 face off, you and I both know that Fed’s on court demeanour looks less of a GOAT but that of a guy who’s owned by the other guy across the net.

That’s a bad look. And one the likes of Sampras, Agassi, Borg, McEnroe have commented on as a bad one for Fed.

Rafa:

Passing Fed is extremely tough already in the GS count. And even if he somehow does so they’ll be some other thing that gets tagged against him.

Ultimately:

I think these 2 are far, far to connected in the public conscience to stand above the other.

You think of one: the mind soon wonders to the other.

Together they created the FEDAL phenomena: like Lennon and McCartney created The Beatles.

Sure you can prefer one or the other, have certain preferences but ultimately:

you’ll forever think of with the other.

And I think that’s how it will be with Fedal: they’ll end up being considered a duo of differing talents, unique, singular skill that combined to carve up a chapter in Tennis history together redefining it and creating a type of rule over the kingdom that will likely never be seen again.

Individually they are great. But as a duo combined:

FEDAL are a sensation that actually transcends the sport.

Appreciate both if you are wise rather than being a fool and trying to figure out the superior between 2 titans.

December 1st, 2014 at 6:03 pm

@Brando, you nailed in my book…..but I know you didn’t in lots of other books…..they are both phenomenal athletes. Novak is a ways behind the two but his head to head on each are very close. Novak is not done by any means and I believe he’s in better health than R/R. They’ve got their little niggles that crop up, but we will see how it all plays out after they retire and the dust settles.
I watched the SF of this year’s FO, luckily I hadn’t erased it in error like I did FO SF in 2013. I had forgotten how John McEnroe had elaborated on the point about the GOAT issue, and clearly thinks Rafa is. He brought up some legit points, but I know when posters read this they will have plenty to say. I’m gonna say there’s not a GOAT……not now or ever. I’m gonna put an “if” out there to get Tennisland reeling…..even if it was Rafa the tennis world was clamoring on about being the GOAT I would still take issue with it……greatest of all time is just too long of a time to crown a winner……strictly my opinion, if a gal from Oklahoma is allowed to have one!! Lol BTW I hated to bring up J Mac, cuz I know a lot of fans think he knows nothing about “our” sport….. so don’t shoot the messenger.

Brando I absolutely loved the Beatles and still love their wonderful music……whenever I listen to them I still get that warm and fuzzy feeling…..you know the one??? Lol Enjoyed your comment! We’ll sit back and see how everyone enjoyed mine!! Lol

December 1st, 2014 at 7:52 pm

@Brando…..I’m listening to Golden Oldies right now and guess what is playing? Strawberry Fields Forever……one of my favs…..this is weird…..

December 1st, 2014 at 7:57 pm

@skeeze, really? Sean said cemented with any one more slam??

Wow, I hadn’t read that! Quite different from the one I read.

I’m very surprised by that!

December 1st, 2014 at 8:50 pm

“According to him, Nadal has another chance of Goatdom next month!”

December 1st, 2014 at 9:00 pm

Well, that’s Sean. And we all know how he is more often wrong than right. Besides, it’s only his opinion which is neither better nor worse than anybody else’s.

December 1st, 2014 at 10:50 pm

He said double career slam which would be next month, not just any one more slam. And also he did not say cemented just “for now”.

Geez Louise skeez!

Anyways! You should be more like me and wait for both guys to retire! haha.

Who is Goonies BTW, a poster here?

December 1st, 2014 at 10:53 pm

“You should be more like me and wait for both guys to retire! haha.”
That is the way of the Rafa beliber, not the tennis fan, lol.
Then why don’t we all wait for everyoneto retire, now, and future pkayers? Where do u stop? Oh wait! Wait for Rafa! Lol
—
You Guys!
Google “Goonies” movie, Sloth,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089218/quotes
Must see fun movie ;)

December 1st, 2014 at 11:23 pm

True, the one most embarrassing black mark in Roger’s profile is his disastrous H2H against Rafa. And what is even more bleaker for him is that he has time against him to set this right and thereby preserving some semblance of dignity. It is really crazy to stand 23-10 against your chief rival which is something detestable even if you bring age criteria into account and the surface advantage. If Roger continues playing as he likely will, the H2H can only get worse unless Rafa falters badly with physical problems daunting him.

December 1st, 2014 at 11:56 pm

@Michael……I will have to hand it to Roger, he apparently doesn’t worry about the h2h, because he’s still getting after it, entering every tournament he is able to……and with the possibility of having to face Novak too. He’s chasing more records….managing to get to finals and semi-finals adds to the resume and if wins the tournament that’s even better! Will he ever quit? I don’t think so for a long time…..he’s too healthy to even think about it…..imo! I’m sorry I kind of got out there with the mention of him hanging it up….just conversation.

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:49 am

“Roger’s profile is his disastrous…”
Disastrous? Lol.
There is mch more “disastrous” things in Rafa’s profile than Feds, by a long shot.
Fans sometimes want to look at what Fed is lacking, not what he has accomplished. If you want to compare Feds “disastrous” faults, compare it to the field of existing/past players, including Rafa’s, and you’ll find his accomplishments …..rather…….overwhelming.

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:51 am

Okiegal,

True, Roger is not bothered about H2H which he considers it as trivial and is only concerned about winning more tournaments. But, that is his perception and it is not necessary others should agree with his mindset. Mind you, this is against his chief rival and certainly as a Roger fan it is discomfiting for me to realize such a disastrous record. Not only the H2H bothers me, but Roger loses his mind whenever he plays against Rafa and already forfeits the match even before it begins. That is not the mental make up you expect from a Champion like Roger. This reality is hard to ignore howsoever you wish to camoflauge to protect the legend of Roger. This I have seen in many matches happening time and again much to my discomfiture. For instance at the French Open 2011 leading 5-2 in the first set, all that Roger had to make was a clean drop shot which was easy to execute with Rafa out of focus thereby adding no pressure, but Roger blunders with the shot and lets Rafa back in the game and from thereon, Rafa dictates the set and grabs it. I would say that was the point of the match which could have changed its entire complexion and that was the best year Roger could have defeated his chief rival in the surface of his dominance since Rafa was playing well below par. Another one at the Australian Open 2009, where Roger should have won the match with ease, but he executes just a pathetic 37% first serves and loses it. Thus against Rafa, Roger looks helpless and out of sorts. This is one black mark in his resume which can never be ignored.But still for me he is a Great Champion apart from this limitation.

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:09 am

Well Rafa’s profile too is not without its blemishes and I have never once claimed so. He has lost ignominously in the 1st,2nd rounds at Wimbledon in his prime and that should be displeasing to his legion of admirers. His record still looks a bit lop sided more loaded in favour of Clay although he has stamped his authority on other surfaces. But in this perception of theory of relativity, Rafa loses his radiance a bit. He also was looking quite helpless against a rampaging Novak in 2011 who owned him for some length of time, but to Rafa’s credit he managed to turn it around and made it even. Even today, if there is a player who can give Rafa goosebumps it can only be Novak (not Roger or Andy who have been consumed by his authority and brilliance – The H2H of both these players against Rafa would prove that).

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:28 am

Before people get their knickers in a twist,this is me using ifs and pure conjecture,but should Rafa equal Roger with GS then Roger would still be GOAT,as Daniel once said you go into sudden death,Roger is superior on all surfaces other than clay,and has more weeks at number number 1,and more WTFs,im wondering if Rafa were to win more GS on other surfaces does that make him GOAT,as he would have more GS,more Masters 1000s,more DCs,a singles gold medal,but less weeks at world number 1,and no WTFs?….

December 2nd, 2014 at 4:50 am

@michael: I applaud how as a fan you are able to honestly speak about a major failing in your fav even though it’s obviously not a fun thing for any fan. Major props to you for that. I see it like this: the likes if Federer and Nadal are quite obviously-at their best- above the field. Rarely do they actually get presented a challenge that’s their equal. Most of the time they are defeating opponents who just are not on their level. Their records show that. Hence: whenever they face an equal it’s vital for them to overcome it since really the rest of the field-whenever fedal are at their best- it’s groundhog day and they are handing out a beating to them. For Federer it was Nadal and the record shows that public perception is not wrong in thinking it’s a colossal failure for him. Just like at how Federer fans behave on here prematch to another fedal clash: lacking in belief, sporting a defeatist, hopeless attitude and wishing the match just does not take place. All of that is for a reason. Then there’s Nadal: he has his challenge in the shape of Djokovic. He got whupped 0-7, many including the haters had him written off as a done deal. Many commentators said that Djokovic will ruthlessly dominate Nadal like Rafael does Federer. That its a done deal. Rafael though said he’s a challenge he’s willing to embrace and shall fight to overcome. What happened next? post that 0-7 rafa leads 7-5 across 3 seasons, 4-0 in grand slams finals with a win including that on HC GS final. THAT is the performance of a genuine champion. One who has met the challenge of a equal and when he written off for dead he’s shown his class, the brilliance of his tennis and shown that not for nothing he’s considered as the great he is. Novak called and Rafael answered his challenge. Rafael called Federer and Roger has never been able to truly answer the challenge. He’s looked woefully meek in front of Rafael at times. And for me THAT is a major telling difference between the 2: when providence provided Federer with an equal to contend with he’s crumbled (23-10). When Nadal got humiliated in a greater fashion (0-7), got written off: he rose like a genuine champion whose truly worthy of his acclaim and addressed the biggest challenge presented to him. One found a way to answer his challenge: the other just found excuses but no answers. For me and many lovers of the game that’s a huge difference between the 2: one champion rises in the face of his great challenge (Nadal) and the other crumbles in the face of it(Federer).

December 2nd, 2014 at 5:12 am

Federer fans get annoyed when Roger is described by Toni as the GOAT,they get annoyed when Rafa calls him the GOAT,and they get annoyed when other Rafa fans describe him as the GOAT,and they get annoyed when Rafa fans dont think hes the GOAT….

December 2nd, 2014 at 5:27 am

Brando @ 5.12 am,

Great Post !! I have to reluctantly concur to many of the genuine points that you have raised although my sympathy lies with Roger and I do want his tall stature to be undermined or condescended. But there are some harsh truths which you cannot brush aside. I agree it is a major failing on the part of Roger that he succumbs to Rafa meekly. Every time before the match when these two meet despite being hyped by the Media and the Tennis fraternity of a blockbuster in offing, there is this disturbing sign on the part of Roger fans including me of just going through the motions ultimately leading to the inevitable outcome of a win for Rafa almost by default with little fight back by Roger. And this repeats time and again inclemently with minor exceptions when they play in indoor courts. Ofcourse Roger in his hey day has beaten Rafa at Wimbledon in 2006 and 2007. However, in 2007, Rafa was nearly able to oust Roger and the later redeemed himself in tie breaks and then win the fifth set with many break point chances to Rafa going begging. So, it was dog’s fight out there even then with Roger prevailing thankfully. In 2008, however, there was a marathon and rightly it was hailed as the match of the century. But, Roger was lucky that the match got extended to five sets to be honest when Rafa had him in knots and totally outclassed him in the first two sets and the honours were even in the third set when Roger turned lucky staving off many break points on his serve and then going on to win the crucial tie break. After winning the fourth set, the momentum was truly in favour of Roger with a demoralised Rafa at the other end just mentally challenged of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and Roger had this advantage of serving first in the fifth set. But despite all these advantages, Rafa stands firm showing his tenacity and mental toughness to outlast Roger. These are the classic matches the two have played but in most others, Rafa has effectively marginalised Roger and the later in few others. Rafa whenever he plays Roger almost takes victory for granted despite his public pretensions of humility and that is a harsh truth. Invariably Rafa has greater respect for Novak than Roger because he was the one who paid him back in his own coin. But, Rafa being a tough nut to crack rebounded and made honours even in his tug of war with Novak. However, this was not possible for Roger against Rafa and that is something intriguing and perplexing that such a great Champion should succumb so tamely.

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:01 am

Brando @ 5.12 am,

There is no greater joy for Roger fans than Rafa getting ousted early in tournaments and I have to admit that even I was part of such frentic celebrations earlier when I didn’t mature mentally. But later I realized my mistake and mended my ways and didn’t want to treat Rafa as an enemy. I realized the sheer stupidity in iconic worship and wants to see facts as they are despite my personal inclinations. With no offence to Roger, he dreads the sight of Rafa at the other end and that is the truth. Against no other player, you will find him so much out of focus and shaky and that is sometime a paradoxical for me when I see that sometimes even journey men give Rafa a run for his money while Roger just gets ready for his sacrifice whenever these two meet. If Roger had this record against any other player that can be wished away as mere aberration. Even the great Borg had a horrible record against a pretty much unknown player named Borowiack at 0-4. But that cannot be a bother. The problem is when you have such a humiliating record against your chief rival which gives much room for agony.

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:14 am

Alison @ 5.27 am,

Some of Roger fans are afflicted with Rafa phobia and you cannot fault them for Rafa is such a thorn in Roger’s crown. They love to hate him for not if for Rafa, Roger might have become a genuine GOAT (although I do not believe in such decorative titles which I think are childish). But just saying that if not for Rafa, Roger’s major count could have crossed over 22.

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:28 am

Michael great post,you always manage to get to the crux of the matter too without the emotional bias that posters have,you never get on your high horse either,your very approachable….

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:32 am

Brando i dont know if you care or not?,but i will say your posts were great too….

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:33 am

Thanks Alison !! Facts are facts how much you try to spin it in a convuluted fashion.

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:34 am

Michael other posters will probably crucify me for this i dare say,but i agree on the whole decorative titles and cliches to describe sports personalities,one poster described Roger as been the best sportsman ever, totally unfair on all the other sportsmen too IMO,whom are all amazing in their own different fields of sport, and although i wasnt actually posting i did read a thread from some years back,where Tiger Woods won some award instead of Roger,and some Federer fans went absolutely balistic about it,i do think and i include all fans on this as a generalisation that the hero worship goes way too far at times….

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:49 am

@michael: truly some astonishingly honest, concise and genuine posts you have written there. I can only try to hopefully meet you with the same. First of all: I agree completely with everything you say. And add: to me and others It’s clear feds best surface is grass. No doubt about it. Yet Nadal pushed a 25 year old Federer to 5 sets in 2007 as you say letting numerous break points go by in the 5th set. More interestingly though: Federer had to win tiebreakers twice to take it to the 5th set since he could not break Nadal down. Rafael won his sets in a more decisive fashion. At the end of the match Federer acknowledged on court that he was lucky to win that day. A genuinely honest comment in recognition of the challenge Nadal posed that day. Bjorn Borg- who was there that day- commented post match that he thinks Nadal will beat Federer next year since he saw a minimal gap on court between the 2. Bjorn was right. Rafael did beat a 26 year old Federer in 2008. You say Federer was stretched the match out to 5 when Rafael probably should have won it earlier: I agree. Again: Federer won 2 sets via tie break since he could not break Down Nadal. This time Rafael held out for a famous win. Now what I find telling here is: you look at Nadal then now in footages and you see his serve looking rather weak in comparison to today, his BH lacking the venom it has today, him being far more defensive than he is today, a lot less inclined to be offensive then than he is comfortable to stand close to the line and play aggressive today. In short: he’s clearly a more superior, aggressive player today. Which begs the question: if a 21/22 year old Nadal had a prime age Federer struggling to break Nadal down in his peak when Rafael really was not at his: how would he fare Against a prime Nadal one who’s offensive game is far greater now than then? If he struggled against a young Nadal then who’s game was nowhere as complete as it is today then how would he fare facing a Nadal who has greatly developed his game from what it was at the young, mere age of 21/22. I think it’s obvious: Nadal would be even greater problem. This is a mere speculative point since ultimately we do not know for sure but: if a prime age Federer was a clear to Nadal on clay, clearly struggled against him on grass, was losing on fast HC surfaces like dubai then I think: had Nadal been the same age as Federer, had the game he has at age 25,26 to present to Federer as Roger did to him in that 2003-2007 I find it highly, highly unlikely that Federer would dominate as he did. If a young, not fully developed Nadal had him in nots then surely a fully developed, more complete, in control of his great talent Nadal would create even more havoc for Federer one would imagine. Could it be that Nadal being 5 years younger actually spared Federer from greater trouble, allowed him to rule without having to face his chief rival who is at an equal footing as him age wise? It could be true. Alas: that’s speculation as I say, but I am sure Federer fans in their most honest moment would be privately glad that Rafael was not the same age as Federer during those 2003-2007 years since a young Nadal was trouble enough when the 2 met! Re Nadal v Djokovic: I tip my hat to you for being a Federer fan who states he feels Nadal rates Djokovic as a greater challenge. I fully agree with you. I think privately Rafael rates Novak as the tougher foe, greater challenge and probably even player than Federer as a opponent. But he can never say that publicly since what would be a honest and actually understandable opinion would be misconstrued as a slight against Federer when really the stats, reality show that he’s actually being honest. As a Nadal fan I think I can say honestly for the majority of us: Novak Is and has always been the tougher challenge. He demands far more from Rafael in order for rafa to beat him. It’s a war with him. And really it’s a greater sensation when Rafael beats him than Federer since with Novak as a fan of rafa you see nole bringing out the best of Rafael: his sheer competitive passion to fight for every point. With Federer though- I am sorry to say- at times it’s been on cruise control. You could actually sense when Fed will crack and inevitably he always does. Does this make Djokovic superior to Federer? Of course not. Records matter and Federer has the superior ones. But out on court for Nadal and his fan’s the simple, honest truth is: Novak not Roger is the one who truly challenges, tests the talent of Rafael to its fullest. I think Rafael actually loves him since rafa more than anything lives for the competition, the challenge more thanks the titles, glory: and the truth is Novak more than Federer has given Nadal a magnificent challenge that he can relish. I hope that’s a honest post reciprocating another one.

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:07 am

Alison,

Blind adulation and psychopancy are the part of psychological make up of human beings and it is quite difficult to redeem them out of it unless you analyse issues rationally and apply reasoning to your collective thought process. It is a shade tough to generalize, but mental frame work of human beings barring a miniscule minority is prone to psychopancy and this habit starts even adoring God and practising their Religion as eternal truth. Sorry for intruding into a non issue but just saying as an example lest it offend the believers for which I apologize. Hero worship many times goes over board having blatant disregard for facts and sensibilities. But that is how World is and it is a shade tough to reform when one’s mind cannot think beyond a personality. Here, I am not just pointing fingers at Roger fans alone, but the entire human class.

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:07 am

Re Federer fans hating Nadal: honestly speaking- of course as a Nadal fan its annoying to see. But I totally understand it 100% and find it as a natural, human reaction to what unfolds between their fav and Rafael on court. Logically it Is not reason to hate Rafael but humans being creatures of emotion rather than logic most of the time: it’s understandable to see why they don’t warn up to to Rafael. Of course this does not apply to them all since a great number are actually able to rise above the basic emotional reaction to such a scenario, such as Michael. They deserve applause for being able to do a tough thing many falter in being Able to do.

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:13 am

Brando @ 7.07 am, Once again brilliant analysis and a Great post over which I do not have much to disagree. But the first time they played on a fast hard court in Dubai, Rafa at 17 or 18 mauled Roger and the later just had to shake his heads in disbelief portending for things to come that here is a mighty challenger who is going to take him to the edge of precipice. Well, what I feel sorry for Roger is that he could have won Wimbledon 2008 but that would be a tad unfair to Rafa who was the much better player on that day and was the deserving winner. However, Roger had all things going for him even with natural intervention and he came short against an iron willed stone clad Rafa who just refused to die down and was missioned to win the crown at all costs braving till the end. My appreciation for Rafa grew that day although I despised him for robbing Roger of glory. Again at the Australian Open, Roger just went down in tears at the prize distribution ceremony and that was a bit awkard to watch. But Rafa just hugged him and made him smile and that looked very sporting for me that here is a player who cared for his opponent when he is down in the dumps and Rafa respects Roger’s achievements although he might not rate him much as a hefty challenger.

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:26 am

I actually asked Sean some months ago to do a thread asking who is the none GS GOAT,to which Sean obliged me,a much more interesting topic to discuss as the GOAT is getting quite boring now, its supposed to be a tennis forum not a GOAT forum,or a Fedal forum,seriously do other players not even exist, how about a topic on who will be the next player to make a breakthrough and win a GS,please tennis-x a change of topic will be most welcome?….

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:55 am

Alison, I join in your appeal.

December 2nd, 2014 at 8:27 am

Michael i do enjoy the chats on this forum,but its getting to the point where alot of us are repeating the same stuff over and over again,some fresh ideas wont go a miss….

December 2nd, 2014 at 8:35 am

As Jane said it wouldve been nice to have a thread on the ITFL,people here love tennis,but barely a mention of that,ive seen some of it,and theres been some great quality tennis,from players past and present….

December 2nd, 2014 at 8:37 am

The “enemy camp”, preoccupied with twin pregnancy fetishes continues to spread false rumors of a Humble baby coming.

December 2nd, 2014 at 9:53 am

Alison, life too is boring in a sense as it is monronous, but we get reconciled to this anomoly and move on with distractions to make life a bit interesting. If you account the happenings in this world things get repeated often if you have a semblance of historical knowledge. Humans never learn mistakes from the past and are destined to repeat it and in a way events of history gets reenacted. But since few are aware of history, we tend to ignore it and see those events as our new experience. In the same way, in the Goat debate there is not much room for manouevere at least in this forum on this topic because we have discussed it thread bare and points get repeated again and again causing much irritation to frequent visitors of this forum. So all need to take yr advise and frame new topics for discussions making it lively.

December 2nd, 2014 at 10:34 am

Michael, wonderful posts. Both players are incredible champions. We are lucky to have watched them both! Although lopsided, their contrasting styles make for incomparable match play, unlike Djokovic vs Murray, both amazing players in their own right.

On a side note however, Borg was 2-2 vs Jeff Borowiak, not 0-4. John Newcombe was 3-1 though but Borg was just 22 the last time they met. I don’t think any player had a significant winning record against Borg. Other than McEnroe, he was unrivalled.

Borg still holds the record for being the youngest player at 25 to win 11 slams. He never played in a Grand Slam after the age of 25!

You guys! Borg won 11 of 27 slams played (41%, an Open Era record). Borg won seven of the final 12 slams played making the finals 11 times! His career match record in slams is an unrivalled 141-16 (90%) in the open era. Borg’s “three channel slams from 78-80 is unprecedented. Borg is the only player to win three different slams without losing a set!

December 2nd, 2014 at 11:31 am

and Borg was of a generation that did not try to win Slams just for history or being GOAT.

they tried to get the grandslam but if that failed he’d gladly skipped final slam of the year AO open. So those players were not setting goals like Nadal, Federer and lately Djokovic are doing.

Sampras was first who clearly outlined that goal.

December 2nd, 2014 at 11:41 am

Not to mention that Borg only played the Australian Open once and he was only 17!

December 2nd, 2014 at 11:43 am

@Elina……Born was my fav in the day
@Brando……I constructed a post very similar to what you have said in the above posts…..but deleted them…..Thanks, my thoughts exactly!

@Michael…..always refreshing post from a Federer fan who is unbiased……like myself.

@Chick, I too think the topic is getting redundant (one of my favorite words after working in the judicial system for several years)……neither side is gonna budge.

I think I made a comment on another thread last night that Roger and Rafa are very fortunate that Novak was a late bloomer……I believe we would see some very different results in the records…..just saying!

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:01 pm

187 comments says it all!

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:19 pm

TX knows what brings the boys to the yard……

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:21 pm

brando,

I’m more of a Rafa fan than a Federer fan. Always have been. I do question the assumption that Federer is glad that he didn’t play prime Nadal. While Nadal’s serve and backhand are definitely better today than when he was 21 or 22, his movement is not. It’s a tradeoff caused by playing a style that lends itself to injury. He’s not hitting bigger serves and backahnds because he wants to. He hits bigger because he has to so that he can keep the points shorter than he did when he was younger. I don’t think force of shot has ever bothered Federer. Definitely not in his prime. What bothered Federer most about Nadal is that he could keep chasing down Federer’s best stuff and make Roger hit one more shot. That and the big kicking forehand ball out to the backhand. This combination would wear Roger down mentally and he’d cough up an error. I suspect that if Edberg had been in the Federer camp 5 or 6 years earlier, the H2H would be quite a bit closer as Edberg would have coaxed some of the stubbornness out of Federer.

Tennis is a lot like boxing. Certain match ups just turn out badly for one fighter in particular.

December 2nd, 2014 at 12:49 pm

@SG1: I respectfully disagree and defer to uncle Toni’s comment: Rafael does less running now since he has less to chase due to his offensive game being much superior. Rafael has shown in AO final 12′, FO semi final 13′ and USO final 13′ v nole that should he have to chase and play defensive for long rallies then he can still do for hours at the highest level. But whereas once he’d have to do it repeatedly now because of his offensive game he has to do it a lot less. Really baring nole he does not need to spend an extended time playing defensive today. A natural evolution on his game. And the body wearing theory I don’t either: he still plays the same brand of explosive tennis as always. It’s just his game has naturally evolved and developed as he and Toni wished for it to do so. As for what in his game bothers Fed: lol it’s far more than that. His recent results v fed show he’s beating him with greater and consistent ease now more than ever, so quite clearly his evolution in tennis skill has aided him. Sure Fed’s older, but when he’s beating the likes of Novak 3 times in a season quite clearly he ain’t no pauper. Ultimately: It’s deeper than just a forehand and defensive ability and clearly the evolution of Nadal’s game giving him a greater offensive dimension has only served to make it easier for him to dismantle Federer at a time when Roger is defeating the likes of Djokovic, Murray etc.

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:08 pm

cool stats about borg elina. thanks for sharing those.

sg-1, true about “force of shot.” indeed fed’s always dealt well with big hitters and returned powerful first serves very well (witness the roddick match up). it’s counter-punchers he traditionally had issues with in the past, guys who could keep defending (and then strike when they needed to), witness losses to canas, murray, simon, nole, and of course rafa through 2006-08.

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:11 pm

PS: force of shot obviously bothers Federer: see gulbis, cilic, berdych slam losses in recent years and even earlier to the likes of safin, ancic, soderling, del Porto etc. When a big hitters on song your in trouble no matter who you are. Fed ain’t different. Also listen to Andy Murray speak of how a shot from Rafael jars the racquets when you receive it. It’s obvious power is another element Nadal brings to the table that cause problems to players, including Federer.

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:14 pm

To get the right perspective on why Toni said what he said, read Rafa’s autobiography. To people who don’t understand how their relationship works it will sound like there is trouble afoot in the camp. Its absolutely the other way around. Its just fuel to the fire that already is burning. VAMOS, Rafa..!

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:16 pm

Same old rhetoric being thrashed out, not full and proper facts.

1. Its pretty much about slams won. 17>14. If Nadal catches up on that, we can talk more.

2. If you want to bring in other stats, it again is pretty clear. 302 weeks at No. 1. 6 YEC. Nadal fades at these. Many other stats too.

3. H2H. Really? its 13-2 in favor of Nadal on clay. So the imbalance is still almost entirely due to clay, where, given Nadal’s clay prowess (best every in history) and Fed’s one handed backhand, it shouldn’t be that surprising. PLUS – age matters. Get real. Until end of 2007 (when fed was 26), Nadal was 8-6 on him (pretty even I would say). Since then (Fed 27 or older, Nadal at his prime), its been 15-4. facts don’t lie. CLAY plus AGE. Why are people so surprised?

December 2nd, 2014 at 1:39 pm

Oh look, we have a new poster named @finally feeding us with old news, except he/she is not a new poster.

December 2nd, 2014 at 2:04 pm

@Giles: lmfao you beat me to the punch! It never ceases to amaze me – and I am sure same for others- how whenever we have a fedal thread suddenly some random named posters swan in proclaiming to know the truth in this matter and post in a eerily familiar fashion. Of course they are never to be seen again after their initial appearance. Correction: reappearance. Some trolls need to show some spine and use the same name since whatever it may say on the tin its still the same old familiar rubbish on the inside.

December 2nd, 2014 at 2:27 pm

it’s true that when a bitter hitter is on song, there’s not much anyone can do, although excellent defenders can sometimes defuse that power.

December 2nd, 2014 at 2:58 pm

@ 2:58 pm – bitter, lol. i meant bigger.

December 2nd, 2014 at 3:17 pm

You said it Giles. No mention of when Roger had the age advantage over Nadal of course, nor that even with clay removed (why should it be) he still has a neg. head to head.

While I’m more of a fan of the underdog players, like Gulbis and Monfils, I have a slight preference of Roger.

However, Nadal’s played this more aggressive style mentioned by SG1 since 2013 over which period Nadal is 5-0 vs Fed and 11-2 in sets played.

December 2nd, 2014 at 3:24 pm

@elina: even on clay Federer should have won against Rafael pre 2007. Let’s face it: Rafael was not even 20 prior to Roland garros 2006, only turned 21 during Roland garros 2007: how much was his clay game developed? You look at him then and today and there is a clear and apparent difference. Federer faced him duringhis peak in that period aged 23,24, 25. In his prime v s player who’s only aged 18,19,20 during most of the clay season. And he lost to him in grand slams. no question about: if your a goat and a top clay courter you should be beating such a young opponent. But he did not. Was not good enough to . Hence all of a sudden everything counts barring clay court matches between. Laughable reasoning from a bunch who claim to make no excuses.

December 2nd, 2014 at 3:49 pm

I love the comments about how they each play their game, not ever having played, it’s nice to be enlightened……..offence, defence, etc. Very interesting. I’m glad we have men and women on the forum to give insight to we mere mortals that have never picked up a racquet but absolutely love this sport! A big thanks!!

December 2nd, 2014 at 4:07 pm

@Giles……How elementary of you Watson! I think I know who the not so new poster is…..but will keep it up sleeve, I could be wrong!

@jaydoc…..I brought up Rafa’s book the other day too. It gives you insight on why things are the way they are. Tony is quite the taskmaster. I commented he might use a little reverse psychology on Rafa, like so many coaches do…..but got lambasted big time. I played sports and I know for a fact coaches do it.

December 2nd, 2014 at 4:17 pm

BTW where are all of the posters here? There are a few MIA……

December 2nd, 2014 at 4:18 pm

Correction, 11-1.

Okiegal, did you say skeeve or sleeve? haha

December 2nd, 2014 at 5:19 pm

okie, i am sure a number of people are MIA because tennis is done for the season and no other reason. expect a wild influx of regulars after the new year. ;)

December 2nd, 2014 at 5:36 pm

Whats MIA?

December 2nd, 2014 at 5:47 pm

@Chick……..missing in action……

December 2nd, 2014 at 6:51 pm

In any sport, there are only 2 records. All other so called records are just stats
1 – number of major tournamnets won ( GS in tennnis)
2 – time spent at number 1

Fed has the upper hand over any other player in both these records.

The h2h is just a stat – fed has a bad h2h against Rafa due to various factors – Nadal not playing with Fed on grass or HC’s often during Fed’s prime. Rafa is definitely not the goat due to his dismal record as # 1, the record for his best year is also dismal compared to Fed. He also has 3 less slams than Fed.
Nadal also looses more times a year than what Fed did when he was at his peak.

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:03 pm

@elina……ha ha…..no I said SLEEVE…..u r trying to get me in trouble…..I promise….Skeezer didn’t cross my mind……I think I may be getting back in his good graces…..don’t want to mess it up. I like to tease and have a good time on here…I can tell by your post, you do too. Life is too short to be miserable. If we we all had the same fav, life would be very dull, imo!!

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:22 pm

@Jane….You are probably right, really had crossed my mind coz I like to talk tennis in the off season too, just like you. We are the REAL fans….lol

December 2nd, 2014 at 7:24 pm

Check pages 5/6/7 and 8 in this link and find out who is the player Nick Bollettieri think is closest to perfect player, it is not Federer and it is not Nadal (nothing ti do with GOAT thing, you can have it:)

http://read.uberflip.com/i/416031/0

December 2nd, 2014 at 11:24 pm

^ i had a feeling who that might be. ;)

cool stuff wog boy; thanks for sharing it!

December 2nd, 2014 at 11:57 pm

okie, it’s a fun place to chat, too, right? sometimes it gets overly intense, but largely it’s a good site to read and share at.

December 3rd, 2014 at 12:06 am

@Jane……yeah, I agree that it gets intense at times…..it can still be fun. I like to visit with fans that have their favs but can see the achievements of all the deserving players. I didn’t read Wogs link……I bet it’s Novak!! I don’t know if you caught my post a day ago when I said R n R better be thankful Novak was a late bloomer……he’s got some catching up to do…..but an awesome athlete!! I will read the link before I hit the sack and see for myself!!

December 3rd, 2014 at 12:20 am

Elina @ 11.31,

Thank you !!

On the Borg Vs Borowiack H2H, you may be right and I stand corrected. As you have Borg’s records at finger tips, I think you might have been his avid fan. I too adored Borg at one time and he was such a stylish player wonderful to watch. The heavy high bounce top spin that Nadal uses today with perfection was pioneered by Borg and it was amazing that he achieved so much top spin with such outdated racquets then. Ofcourse, Borg always had problems to adjust his style of play against Mcenroe but many of their battles were evenly contested, although John had the upper hand in majors especially at the US Open where he proved to be his nemesis. The most shocking thing is that Borg couldn’t win even the US Open when it was played on Clay which is his favourite surface where he was the undisputed King. He lost to Jimmy twice at Flushing Meadows and somehow by stroke of bad luck, he just couldn’t grab the title. But still as you have clearly outlined, his success rate is phenomenal and he was one of his kind. Unfortunately, he quit the game when he was at his peak unable to bear the losses to John consecutively at Wimbledon and US Open. He tried to make a come back afterwards but with little success. He spoiled his own career for which he can blame nobody but himself.

You have mentioned that Borg was the only player to win three different slams without losing a set, I wonder if that is right as Borg won only the Wimbledon and French and played Australian Open just once or twice in his career which he never won.

December 3rd, 2014 at 12:58 am

Okiegal @ 12.01 PM,

Thank you. I always try to be unbiased but I might slip now and then as I am too a victim of human imperfection.

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:01 am

I don’t know why people start bringing up the h2h conversation – if someone is a great player, they should be the number 1 ranked and should have won the most major tournaments.

Nadal has had some fairly close h2h against some people whom fed has completely owned- so it’s surprising to see how nadal looses to some of these top players while Fed has had amazing results against them.

Davydenko leads the h2h over nadal 6-5; however Fed owns davydenko 19-2.

Nadal Gaudio is 3-3, Fed Gudiao is 5-0
Nadal Blake is 4-3; fed Blake is 10-1
Nadal Hewitt is 7-4; fed Hewitt is 19-8
Nadal Ferrer is 22-6, fed ferrer is 16-0
Nadal corretja is 0-2 ; fed corretja is 2-3

There are many more such examples and numerous players against whom Nadal has often lost but fed hasn’t lost that often or at all, however its tough to find a player who nadal has owned but fed hasn’t owned.

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:03 am

Michael…..Well, we can fall off the wagon once in awhile!! Like you said, we aren’t perfect!!

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:07 am

i think i saw your post okie. that’s a nice thought. they’re all pretty amazing, these big 3 and even 4. all slam winners are deserving of respect, and even players who get up into – and especially stay up in – the top ten of the world. i mean, top ten in the world of anything is rather astonishing! tres impressive.

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:26 am

Nadal not playing with Fed on grass or HC’s often during Fed’s prime

Well the first time they played on a fast hard court at Dubai when Rafa was a kid, he trounced Roger at his prime in straight sets which left the later bewildered as to what really hit him ? Ofcourse whenever the H2H of Roger Vs Rafa is discussed, the surface equation always comes into play and sympathizers of Roger are quick to question the distortion in their H2H due to inevitable Rafa’s supremacy on Clay and the fact that Roger was quite consistent enough unlike Sampras to reach the finals or semis of Rolland Garros only to be stopped by Rafa on his tracks. Surely, their grouse is that Roger paid the price for his consistency. Ofcourse there is some grain of truth in it. But is not Clay court too part of Tennis ? Infact Clay is the natural surface while the rest are artificial courts which evolved much later. If you should be really ranked as a great player, you must be adept playing on all surfaces. Roger ofcourse was an all court player but he just couldn’t cope up with the brilliance of Rafa on Clay surface. At one time in an interview after a French Open final, Roger commented that Rafa was playing like hell and it was impossible to outlast him. Such was the respect, admiration or you might even say the futility of playing against him on the Clay surface reflected largely on Roger. To his credit, Roger didn’t lose heart and sounded optimistic before every match against Rafa atleast superficially, but once on court, he became a victim of Rafa’s invincibility on Clay and there was a sign of helplessness writhed largely on his face. The worst thing is that he was not even able to extend Rafa to five sets even once in Rolland Garros which even Isner managed to do and therein lies the paradox of this rivalry between Champions – One overtly confident while the other totally depressed !!

Nonetheless, not only on Clay court, even on outdoor hard court, Roger has a very poor record against Rafa. Even on his favourite surface Grass, it stands at just 2-1 with Rafa almost making a match of it in 2007 and took him to the brink. So there is no truth that Roger dominated Rafa on Grass or hard courts where the contest was once again loaded only in favour of Rafa. The only saving grace for Roger was on indoor hard courts where he got the measure of Rafa as without it the H2H would have been even more disastrous. The sad part for Roger is that critics would almost dismiss his chances whenever he plays against Rafa because they realized the inevitability of the outcome despite hailing it as a unique rivalry and even his die hard fans seemed less confident and depressed whenever he played against Rafa reconciled to defeat almost by default. Just take the withdrawal of Roger against Novak at the World Tour Finals with ease. Can he afford such pull out against Rafa ?

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:35 am

@Jane….isn’t that the truth. When you put it in that perspective…..top ten on the entire planet….yeah that’s awesome……and the times Rafa has been knocked out early by players not even in the top ten……go figure!! They’re human….and to err is human! Rafa has a good mental game but loses it at times….but they all do.

December 3rd, 2014 at 2:00 am

Lmfao Nadal did not play Federer often enough on grass during Fed’s prime? What a load of rubbish. I guess it most have been Nadal’s avatar that took to the court in the Wimbledon final 2006,2907,2008 when Federer was aged 24,25,26. How criminal of Nadal not to face Federer in the finals of 2003,2004,2005 when he was aged 17,18 and 19. Btw: how many Wimbledon finals did Federer at such an age? Or how many Wimbledon finals did Federer play 20, merely 21 in comparison to Nadal’s 2? I think we know the answer to that lol. So it’s a colossal load of BS that Nadal did not play Federer during his prime on grass: he did, on 3 times. And against a Nadal no older than barely 22, Federer only managed one more win and one which he admitted infringement of thousands that he was lucky to do so! And then there’s HC: another BS excuse. A 17 year old Nadal straight setted Federer o. This surface during his prime in 2004, a Nadal of age 18 beat Federer in his prime on the fast hc surface of Dubai. The only master series final they played Federer barely won in 5 sets and you’ll see him today saying: Nadal should have won even that one. So its a load of rubbish saying Nadal did not meet Federer enough during his prime on Harcourt since not only did he meet him he usually was whupping butt also….. As per usual. At worst: you can say he did not meet him in a HC Grand slam: but even the. that’s a lame excuse. Nadal met Federer in AO final in 2009 aged 22. At such a age Federer also made his debut HC final debut: so its a load of rubbish to say Rafael should have reached HC Grand slam prior to such a stage when quite clearly Federer himself was not good enough to do so. Nadal did so at the same age as him and despite being tired he took the trophy and made the 27 year old Federer- in prime age- cry And say this is killing me in front of the watching world. I cannot see the big deal: why the excuses from some fanatics- just accept what the rest of the world knows the facts show, reality supports and stop making ridiculous excuses and accept the blatant truth the rest of the world accepts and acknowledges: on court Federer is Nadal’s pigeon. His punch bag. Period.

December 3rd, 2014 at 5:25 am

Corrections due to auto correct errors: 2007 not 2907 lol. And infront>infringement. Nadal beat Federer in 2004 on HC- Federer was a old 22 year old at the time of the match with 2 grand slam wins to his name. Clearly the 17 year old Nadal was facing a over the hill opponent right? Lmfao: fans who want to maintain a delusion will make up any old story to get away from the widely accepted fact that out on court Nadal owns Federer. 7 time grand slam winner mats wilander may have been crude when he said it but definitely with a point when he said in a brutally honest manner: in front of Nadal Federer has always lacked balls. Kudos to mat for speaking the truth that millions recognize for over 10 years now, since a 17,18,19,20 year old Nadal was doing to Federer what he’s done up to age 28: whup his butt. A near enough child Nadal did not complain about his age, being a kid on tour: he just saw a pigeon across the net and plucked its wings. Kicked his butt from day one on clay, straight settled him on hard court all the while a teenager and then beat Federer at 22 on grass when he should have at 21. Grand slams, master series. All the while Federer was no older than 27. So old: must have walked onto court with a walking stick right? Lol: the excuse makers can wish whatever story they want but the record shows: at any and every age Nadal has shown himself to be federers daddy out on court. Deal with it and move on. The end for me on this topic of obvious reality.

December 3rd, 2014 at 5:42 am

Okiegal/Jane @December 2nd 5.36pm and 5.47pm,there is still tennis going on,but its such damn shame nobody seems remotely interested in the ITFL,some great matches going on as i said yesterday which fell on deaf ears,Santoro is playing Agassi ATM,Serena was beaten by Flipkins,i havent a clue about the permatations but great tennis though none the less,for anyone who sees tennis outside the GOAT debate….

December 3rd, 2014 at 7:53 am

@Chick…..I can’t get any of it on my tv or PC….so it’s a bust for me. I can’t get too interested in something I can’t see. Chick…..I’m confide the GOAT discussion will never go away. That horse has been beat to death……but the horse manages to always rise for more! Lol

December 3rd, 2014 at 11:12 am

Brando GOAT Poster Says:
My take:

NEITHER Fed or Rafa will retire as a singular, unchallenged GOAT.

Fed:

He’ll always have the Rafa h2h. Sorry Fed fans but when you are a player who routinely got whupped by your biggest rival in your own time then how on earth can you be labelled as superior to former greats who you never faced when the biggest one in your time had your number routinely?

Brando, that really is your opinion.

There is so much more to GOAT than h2h.

Question. How can Rafa ever be called GOAT when:

a) he takes too much time out of the game?
b) his slams are clay heavy?
c) he talks about his injuries all the time in the press, before and after?

Just a thought. Of course the h2h is there for all to see, we know that lefties is a bad matchup – I absolutely still believe that he is the GOAT, if and until somebody surpasses No. 17 as that is a huge factor in the “GOATness argument”.

December 3rd, 2014 at 11:22 am

The attraction of the GOAT debate is that there a million and one opinions and none of the opinions can be proven one way or the other. It allows for speculation and assumption. Even the cold, hard numbers can be discredited in a specious manner. To be perfectly frank, I enjoy the GOAT stuff. It’s an opinion like anything else and that’s what this site is all about. I couldn’t look at my work colleagues, keep a straight face, and argue that the sky is green. In the faceless medium called blogging, you get to hear what people really think (absurd as it often may be) because of the inherent anonymity. It does bring out the riff-raff too, but all in all, it seems like the folks here believe in their “cause”.

As for me, I lean towards Rafa as the best ever. It comes down to a somewhat simplistic, if overly dramatic opinion. If I had to have anyone on earth play a match for my life, it would be Rafa. He never gives up, never backs down and never loses a match between his ears before he steps on court. He’s a modern day warrior. I know he’d leave it all out there (unless of course he didn’t like me), in which case all bets are off!

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:00 pm

@all: I’ll refrain from posting on the GOAT since quite clearly my opinions seem to rile some posters. It’s cool: I’ll ease off.

December 3rd, 2014 at 1:34 pm

Ill refrain from all things GOAT for the time being,the whole subjects getting boring now….

December 3rd, 2014 at 2:13 pm

Brando GOAT poster Says:
”
Roger is the GOAT and also Rafael’s pigeon.”: that’s what you call summing up the entire reality of the matter in a few words, brilliantly put James!

November 30th, 2014 at 3:49 pm

Brabdo, when you come off the wine, you know you don’t mean a single word.

Gile,s thanks for the pic. Already seen it on his facebook page.

I would post an image of Rafa’s butt, but realised you probably have them plastered all over your bedroom wall.

December 5th, 2014 at 2:04 pm

@madmax. Hahaha very droll! You must have kissed his war wound better cos he’s fit and ready to go in India! Hope he doesn’t withdraw from any matches. The Indians would certainly not appreciate it.

December 5th, 2014 at 2:15 pm

Why do fans always assume Rafa fans are only interested in him for his looks?the guys an all time great for goodness sake….

December 6th, 2014 at 8:02 am

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/sports/rafael-nadal-wouldve-still-beaten-me-many-times-says-roger-federer/articleshow/45404625.cms?
Here you go, straight from the horse’s mouth.

December 7th, 2014 at 10:25 am