Novak Djokovic: Men Should Get More Prize Money Than Women Since We Sell More Tickets Right Now
by Staff | March 20th, 2016, 7:52 pm
  • 119 Comments

After his fifth Indian Wells title, Novak Djokovic dipped his toes on the Ray Moore controversy and then got involved in the great debate: Equal prize money.

Djokovic said he supports the WTA’s effort to earn equal money to the men, but then said the men should earn more since they are the more popular attraction.

“Women deserve respect and admiration for what they are doing,” Djokovic said. “I have been through that process as well, so I understand how much power and energy WTA and all the advocates for equal prize money have invested in order to reach that. I applaud them for that. I honestly do.

“They fought for what they deserve, and they got it,” he said. “On the other hand, I think that our men’s tennis world, ATP world, should fight for more because the stats are showing that we have much more spectators on the men’s tennis matches.

“I think that’s one of the reasons why maybe we should get awarded more. But, again, we can’t complain because we also have great prize money in men’s tennis is at the right moment in the right time.”

He then made it clear that if the WTA attracted more fans, they should get more than the men.

“Women should fight for what they think they deserve, and we should fight for what we think we deserve,” Djokovic added. “I think as long as it’s like that and there’s data and stats available and information, you know, upon who attracts more attention, spectators, who sells more tickets, and stuff like that, in relation to that it has to be fairly distributed.”

Djokovic gave his thoughts on Moore’s comments, “Not politically correct. I mean, it was maybe exaggerated a little bit, but that’s just my opinion.”

After his Rafael Nadal-tying 27th Masters event, Djokovic heads to Miami trying to repeat his Indian Wells-Miami double.


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119 Comments for Novak Djokovic: Men Should Get More Prize Money Than Women Since We Sell More Tickets Right Now

gary Says:

Moore should be part of the solution vs part of the problem. Moore is less and needs to go!!


Emily Says:

Not getting on a soapbox, but that was not all he said about female tennis players


jane Says:

give ALL the commentary please.
he walked a tightrope in his response and maybe miss-stepped but his intentions are good
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeB1MoiUEAA19yW.jpg


Wog Boy Says:

I don’t see anything wrong with what Nole is saying here.


jane Says:

wog boy, there is more, as above in the post. i just posted that so we had the rest of it.

as for equal pay for equal work, i am for that of course! men and women should get paid equally for the same work/jobs.

where i have questioned it is in grand slams, which have men playing best of five – different than all their other events – but when women still play best of three, as they do for everything else, but yet the pay is the same.

in this instance, it does make me wonder. i would have liked to see what would’ve happened if women played best of 5 at slams – even if only for the finals, or the last couple of rounds.


BBB Says:

I don’t have a problem with what he said. Heather Watson opened the door and everyone seemed relieved, and he’s also talking about women who have kids. I don’t think dismissing Moore’s remarks as “not politically correct” is a great quote, but, English isn’t his first language.

On equal prize money, his line of argument is one I can accept in theory. I think it’s just a mess to administer, so stick with equal prize money and assume the ebbs and flows of popularity result in general fairness.


Siddy Says:

Consequently, the women should get the monetary proceeds from higher television ratings than men’s tennis.


jane Says:

BBB, well said. i agree.


Humble Rafa Says:

The Egg Lover is not smart as I thought.


Markus Says:

Why don’t they just separate the men’s and the women’s events? Separate them completely then figure out the prize money accordingly.


BBB Says:

Thanks Jane!

@Markus – I think the data show that the events are more successful when they’re combined, which is why the trend has been toward combining them rather than separating them. And then you don’t have to worry about which tour is more of a draw at any moment in time.


Wog Boy Says:

jane, as I said on the other thread, every major Nole wins lately is overshadowed by something else. Look at TX, hardly few comments about Nole depleting the “future number one” but already twice as much comments about what that CEO said and Nole has been dragged into it. We already have two threads about that and not yet thread about IW final.


Markus Says:

Thanks for that info, BBB. Both sides benefit from each other then. Equal prize money is a very touchy subject especially in this era of political correctness. But since I am not a celebrity who has to worry about backlash, I will say that I agree with Djokovic.


chrisford1 Says:

Core truth – The ATP is in part a players union. Like all unions they have a duty to seek the best compensation for their members, fight for it. Not have the ATP be the 1st Union in human history to say “we don’t have the moral authority to ask for men’s money that the owners determined should be allocated to the women.”

Core truth – “hormones” – implying women’s menstrual cycles, do impact play, training – are not in dispute. The WTA has had debates about seeking to legitimize smaller doses of “prohibited” drugs to reduce cramping, bloat, etc – without TUEs. As Djokovic said, the women are on this problem strong.

Core truth – PC has now entered tennis. And both players and officials are better off if they push back on PC rather than just dutifully lie away on such questions. Less PC, more honesty, please. Less POW style apology tours..”Thanks to my wise captors, I have learned 1st hand of the horrors of my actions in a warplane. And now I feel I must apologize as an air pilot war criminal to all the people.”

Core truth – There is nothing mysterious at all about the methodology to determine money each revenue center of a large firm or consortium makes. What overhead and profit is acceptable. And what economic sense redistribution makes to cost centers, lesser revenue centers making a lot less.


SnotNosedKid Says:

Nice that something is making headlines, cuz the final sure as hell didn’t. Pathetic match.


jane Says:

wog boy, indeed. same thing all the time.


mat4 Says:

@jane:

Thanks for the link. And I feel ok, today. Got bad news yesterday, that was all.

About Novak’s comments:

It’s a very difficult question. Overall, I am for equal prize money for equal work — that means that I would like to see men earn more than ladies at the Slams, and the same amount at other events.

Endorsements are one of the ways where the players that attracts the most “viewers” and the most sponsors — money — are rewarded. The public doesn’t always pay to see craft, but to watch certain players. The market has already fixed the amounts.

These amounts are not always fair — but sports doesn’t live only on results, but on popularity. Then, the globalisation made the best players earn much more than the others, but that’s the way it is. My son watches tennis because of Novak, and he plays tennis because he likes it. And he spends more on apparel than me — although it’s not difficult to spend more than I do.

But Novak is also a representative of the ATP, the best player in the world, and this is also a way to fight for other tennis players — he asks for more money for them.

I also agree with this last sentence, about the PC. I deeply believe that a person has the right to think what he/she wants — but one can’t allow himself to say what he wants in certain occasions. Moore has the right to his opinion, and in a cruel way, he could be right, or not. But as the tournament director of an important tournament, as an official, he was not in position to say it in front of journalists.


mat4 Says:

About the campaign against Novak:

Different propaganda schemes are used, and one of the main channel is Twitter. I am sometimes honestly afraid that something is in preparation, as it was done with Sharapova. Right now, I don’t know if it’s in the greater scheme of things, or this is only a manoeuvre to force him to sign for Nike, with Maria out, Fed retiring at the end of this year and Rafa waning.


dh Says:

The bigger issue is to distribute more money to the lower rungs of the sport. There’s such a massive discrepancy between the top tier and lower tier earnings. I’m not advocating some Bernie Sanders pipe dream, but I’d like to see the lower ranked players have a chance to survive and have a viable development path. The money the top 2 finalists make is ridiculous (but that begs the question: how much money is the tournament raking in?). If you don’t give a crap how the #200+ ranked guy is doing, then this sport will always be for the privileged & wealthy few.

You win a tournament, and you’re walking away with a 7-figure check … for a single event! It’s freaking unreal compared to what Laver and even Johnny Mac were making in their heyday.

Plus, the $Million+ dollar check for a female playing 3 set matches (while men are slogging out 4-5 hour 5-set marathons) … don’t even get me started on this ludicrous inequality.

**** You women want equal PAY?
**** Then you put up equal PLAY.

It’s a downright abomination. How anyone can say women “deserve” the same as men is an utter joke.

Then again … if people are dumb enough to pay the same amount for a chick match and show up in droves, then all this talk is moot. If you can get ‘em in the seats, fleece away.


anki Says:

The whole thing is being blown out of proportion. Novak needs better PR team ASAP. The media are just ready to pounce on him at every given opportunity. Give the guy a break.


Michael Says:

The equal prize money for both men and women is a contentious issue for time immemorial and has created a bout of controversies in the past as well as present.

I do not think that women deserve equal prize money atleast at the Grand Slams because they pay only three sets compared to the men who are ordained to play five setters. And the competition amongst men is also brutal and tough compared to women and the difference is visible even in the way Tennis is played by both men and women. The 200th ranked player in the Men’s circuit can easily give Serena a run for her money if they are pitted to play against one another.


Richard Says:

True woman-power (I’m all for it) will be seen only when they start showing the courage and committment to allow women’s tennis to support itself. I have nothing against fans of women’s tennis and will tune in to some games myself, but as a follower of men’s tennis, I have to say tournaments co-hosting, and networks co-televising both WTA and ATP events at the same time and venue is a constant annoyance — cutting away in the middle of a best-of-five between athletes cracking groundstrokes at the speed of many top female players’ 1st serves, pushing their bodies and reflexes to the limits of human capacity, to devote equal time to relatively pedestrian contests conducted with a fraction of the speed, power and shot making prowess is as exasperating as it is an act of chivalrous charity. During Djokovic’s masterful demolition of a scary, rocket-serving Raonic in the Indian Wells final, the BNP radio commentators couldn’t stop nattering about women’s tennis, even as play was on. For goodness sake, let us watch women’s tennis when we choose to watch women’s tennis — stop shoving it in our faces the rest of the time.


Margot Says:

Women’s US Open final sold out before the men’s.
I’ve always thought that women should play 5 sets in the slams, which apparently WTA is fine about.
But in these days of quick fixes/ad breaks etc etc the sponsors/media don’t want it. And apparently the reverse pressure is on to have men play best of 3 in slams.
My heart sinks when I hear guff about “hormones/women’s bodies” TBH. Those arguements were always used to treat women as unequal citizens. In the last century women were treated as inferior because their brains “were smaller” are we back to that?
Tho., before Nole fans jump on me, I expect he was caught on the hop and surprised to be asked.


George Says:

Djokovic did not say that “Men Should Get More Prize Money Than Women” (should is here crucial word he did not use). He said that those who sell more tickets might ask for more. If such principle is introduced, during some periods man would get more while during some other periods women would get more.


Pauly Says:

Raonic was clearly injured
Aweful match shithouse


Pauly Says:

What about equality


George Says:

If you introduce principle “money for tickets” it could be argued that players should not be awarded based on results, but based on tickets sale. As an example, should Federer get 80-90% share of money for USO Final 2015 when considering that majority of people paid to see him win? Maybe Djokovic should be paid even more as many people come to see him lose?


J-Kath Says:

Excluding Davis Cup and other one-off tournaments (eg round robin end of year)…I’ve always wondered why a Masters has the same no. of sets (both sexes) as “250″‘s, “500″‘s and the like. I’m assuming it gains its importance because the no. of entrants are larger, hence more competition.

On the subject of financial awards men vs. women …when the women play potential 5-setters in Slams then obviously they must receive the same level of financial award. This subject came up before and the Women were willing to accept it.

What about a trial e.g. 5-setters for women from quarters thru to and including the final. Tie-breakers changed to points in 5th set to i.e. first player to get 10 points over 8?????


J-Kath Says:

Margot’s point on what sponsors want. It could all be speeded up with :

No more “Let’s”.
Tiebreaks changed to 10 points over 8 instead of requiring 2 sets to seal the victory.

NB: For men and women.


Bruce Says:

Everyone forgets the women have offered to play 3 out 5 sets for years but Grand Slams have denied it. You can’t blame the WTA when they have offered to play 3 out of 5 for equal prize money and the Grand Slams don’t want it. Scheduling, etc….


Wog Boy Says:

“Women’s US Open final sold out before the men’s.”

Correct, but don’t we all know why or we are pretending we don’t. Serena was about to make history and people wanted to be witnesses of history in making, as simple as that. Serena, as everybody believed, was shoe in to win her 22nd GS title, who wouldn’t like to be there, tell me?

Margot, you know that I am regular at AO, they have am session tickets and pm session tickets on RL arena, MC arena. Hinsens arena you can get in with ground passes. Trust me, they have to put one male and one female match in each session to make sure the ticket are sold, if they put two females in am or pm session there is a good chance arena will be half empty unless it is Sharapova or Aussie players, and I am not biased, just saying the truth and nothing but the truth. First thing I am checking is who is playing first in the morning, and sorry to tell you, even I have a ticket I stay in the hotel until it is time for the second match if the first one is WTA match, and don’t call me sexist because I am not, I am just not so much interested in watching WTA matches. I remember when Serena lost to Sloan I was in the hotel watching on TV though I had a ticket, after first set I rushed to RLA to see the end of the match and it was half empty.


Margot Says:

Wog Boy, take your point but what about MMT’s, that, partly because of the immense publicity/hype that surrounds the top male players,most people just want to see them.
Apart from general fans unlike us tennis “nutters” who would rather given, a choice, see two male players ranked 100 and 154 play eah other, than say Nole/Rafa/Fed/Andy play No 154.
Not many I’d say.
Hope you get my gist, not explaining myself too well.


danica Says:

Have to agree re: sold out USO final. I mean, no one in their right mind would pay sooner to see Peneta and Vinci when the other final had Federer and Djokovic on roster. It was all about witnessing Serena making history and winning a year round Grand Slam.

Definitely am on board that women do not deserve to be paid equally at slams.

As for hormones, Nole was actually applauding women saying that they have to go through different challenges that men don’t have to. He did not say anything sexist or disrespectful there.


mat4 Says:

There is really another vicious attack on Novak for his words about equality of money.

I thought he was cautious and articulated. jane gave the complete interview in the link, and Novak acknowledged the efforts and the sacrifices women have to do to play professionally — no children in their best years, physical problems men don’t have… etc. What was wrong with that? It is the truth, isn’t it?

Then, he asked for more money for men, on solid grounds. I don’t agree with him here, but he could have a point. But we live in a free world, and if the truth hurts, it’s not a reason not to tell it.

He didn’t condemn what Moore said, because, although it is ugly, what Moore said was in part the truth. What he omitted to say is that it works in the world of men, too: men’s tennis has and has always had his Maria, or his Chris Evert.

And no, women’s tennis has never been as popular as men’s. But in gymnastics, Nadia Comaneci is the most popular athlete ever in gymnastics, and when we go to watch skating, the most popular discipline is ice dancing. So we see that in certain sports, women are more important, in other, it’s couples, and in yet other, men.

When were at it, I officially demand that women playing soccer to be paid as much as men. Why should Lionel Messi earn more than Carli Lloyd?

Enough with this hypocrisy.


Tennisfan Says:

So Peneta and Vinci should be paid less because they aren’t Djokovic and Federer? Honestly it seems unfair that women should be paid less for something that they can’t control (i.e. whether people show up to their matches or not) I know its not a perfect solution and I understand Djokovic’s point- but imo without equal pay it becomes an unfair situation. Those that bring-in more tickets generally end up earning more anyway through getting endorsements etc.


Wog Boy Says:

mat4,

I am the first one to go and support women’s beach volleyball, and I remember watching it during 2000 Sydney Olympic Games in temporary erected stadium on famous Bondi beach, I thoroughly enjoyed it…though I don’t have a clue who won matches or medals, by far the best outfit of all sports..


mat4 Says:

Tennisfan:

Exactly. They should be less paid. And yes, the tickets, the TV audience, are a good base.

Otherwise, I believe that tennis players should be paid much less than doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. who, at least, do something useful for the society.


danica Says:

Yes, they should (be paid less) at the Slams. I am not talking about the quality of the game or the depth of the fields, I am simply comparing the work and time spent on court. Five is always bigger than three.


mat4 Says:

@WB:

I like ladies beach volley too… But here, it’s not a question of fairness or gender equality, but, just like you noted, it’s a distortion of Novak’s words and a concerted attack on him.

Danica:

I agree with you, just like I wrote above. But I am starting to feel cynical, so you can dismiss my next answers — I’ll probably go over the board.


Van Persie Says:

Well, well…”Nole did it again”. Whatever he says, it’s twisted.
Now they wanna whet the women and feminists against him. That’s far more important as the record achieved by him yesterday…
God knows, what I will read tomorrow about this guy


mat4 Says:

Hi, Sarah. It has become kind of normal. The point now is to destabilize him before the FO.

Novak is growing in central, East Europe, and Asia. He’s more and more popular in India, too. And he’s promoting European and Japanese companies: Addidas, Head, Uniqulo, Peugeot, Seiko.

No Nike, no Wilson… It hurts.


Van Persie Says:

Yep Mat4,

An “this bastard” keeps on winning…

Something needs to be done!


Wog Boy Says:

You two, stop rubishing Nole..


Wog Boy Says:

Margot,

I do get your point.


mat4 Says:

Sarah, WB:

Did you ever heard of Carli Lloyd? I had to find her name in Wiki… Does she not deserve the same money as Messi? The attendance at the WC was more than 26000 per match…

And what about Tamika Catchings? She deserves at least to earn as much as one of these NBA beasts.


Van Persie Says:

Mat4,

Te media keeps on impressing me.
Romania and Montenegro beat Denmark (female handball)last weekend, so Denmark did not qualify for Rio Olimpycs.
Some newspaper in Denmark was very angry about Denmarks team on Saturday, that one team from Eastern Europe, they also called the girls from Romanias team “Dracula’s daughters”, managed to beat them.

So..nothing surprises me anymore…


Van Persie Says:

Sorry Mat4, never heard of Carla Lloyd until now.
Do not watch female football….


mat4 Says:

Romania was a powerhouse in handball before Denmark even existed…

And this story about Vlad Cepes… Enough of it. The Turks did for centuries what he did once. But a second rate novel from the XIX century not only deformed his life, the meaning of his desperate fight, his being itself, but put a black mark on the whole Romanian people as well.

Here nobody knows the meaning of “furror normanorum” — praying with bloody hands…


Wog Boy Says:

mat4,

Me neither, sorry:(


mat4 Says:

Why should you be sorry? Me neither. That was all the point. Nobody cares about equality of fees in football, handball, basket-ball, volley-ball, but in tennis… oh my oh my…


Van Persie Says:

Mat4,

regarding football: You will crush us! Our match is the first in France ;)
Hehe, I can already congratulate you :)

Am off now. was nice chatting with you ;)


George Says:

As Djokovic rightly said it is not an easy and straightforward issue. Tennis is designed based on principles of positive discrimination towards women, which is an accomplishment of Billy Jean and WTA. Djokovic has a point that ATP should fight for interests of their members. If anyone is for as-fair-as-possible system, man and women should not be segregated, but should play together under the umbrella of a single organisation and success awarded in an gender-independent manner, i.e. money distributed solely on merit irrespective of a gender. However, consequences of such system are obvious. For me, problem with Moore is not as much what he said, but how he said it. He unnecessary used offensive language and shot himself into the foot. I suspect that Djokovic wanted to help him little bit (I would think that he is on good terms with this guy) by saying that it is not all that obvious.


mat4 Says:

@George:

Good and balanced comment.


mat4 Says:

@Sarah:

There are things you don’t know about “our” football team, revealed only recently. I stopped watching football long ago, but I was disgusted to learn that the spirit of the team of 1984 — of the black, blanc, beurre who were all French first — has disappeared… and leave not a wreck behind, to quote Shakespeare.


James Says:

Equal Pay is the right thing to do. For equal work.

Let women play best of 5 in slams (though God it would be boring), then the work part is equalized.

Then of course, since so much depends on sponsors, TV audience and tickets sold, see who is generating more money (now with so much data available, that can be accurately figured out). And make prize money proportional to that. If women generate more money, they deserve a bigger paycheck.

Otherwise this is what is called socialism. It is actually discriminatory to pay someone the same even if they work more and generate more profit.


chrisford1 Says:

This morning I was challenged about the pay issue with a ladyfriend that got fairly huffy when I said Hewitt was basically right but had used some very unfortunate phrases in getting his point across. And that Djokovic was ‘stupid” to get in any sports controversy. And in the name off equality and working just as hard, women of course deserve equal pay.

My response was is that a natural leader must take on some complex, difficult to talk in a way that pleases everyone, interviews. It wasn’t “stupid” of Nole. He was speaking up for his group, a male players union he pays dues to and advocates for. And no union on the planet accepts and endorses a policy that their government or firm they work for, for the sake of social justice, redistributes union members pay towards “equality money” to members of a different union or local – making far less revenue – because they work “just as hard”.

Outside the leisure classes of the West, and the deliberately obtuse academics, every worker understands this view Djokovic has. As do professionals – the reason a surgeon makes more than the scrub nurse who “works just as hard” is obvious – just as the reason the scrub nurse makes 2 1/2 times the pay of the big OR room cleaner guy who “works just as hard, just as many hours” as the nurse.

Honestly, feminists were among the 1st makers of the PC we live under today. Using their old school Stalinist traditions to attempt to suppress counter-arguments by terming such Free Speech unacceptable. It was all sexist, offensive, unenlighted, hurtful….far from progressive. Indeed, attitudes so wrong in their opposition to feminist goals were so hurtful, traumatic, and offensive that “survivors of this” had a right to demand critics should be fired for expressing such thoughts. Feminism was one of the main originating sources of PC, in Canadian academia, and NYC. Evolved naturally from Stalinist norms of suppression. “All discussion is over. We got what we wanted. This will not be allowed to ever change. Now shut up and be civil. Or else.


Markus Says:

Why do female basketball players (WNBA) get paid so much less money than men (NBA)?

Why do LPGA players get so much less than the PGA players?


Ben Pronin Says:

Markus, those aren’t the same.


mat4 Says:

@CF1:

An anecdote about PC speech, from academic circles. I won’t name names, but it’s easy to find.

A few decades ago the book “Black Athena” was published. A distinguished academic worker refuted all the thesis of that book (that, e.g., Aristotle stole his knowledge from the Alexandria library — he died long before the library was built; the twon itself was founded by his pupil, Alexander the Great), that Socrates was black, etc. She had to fight in court for years because of her views… unbelievable.

There is a discrimination of working white males of the dominant social/ethnic groups in Western societies. It has become mind boggling.


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

You’re wrong: it’s precisely the same. I have nothing against socialism — I’ve seen communism from close, and there were a lot of great things, but then, the whole society has to change.


mat4 Says:

James, George and ChrisFord1 gave very sensible answers to this issues. It’s not enough to say it’s not the same thing, but one has to address their arguments.


Ben Pronin Says:

“There is a discrimination of working white males of the dominant social/ethnic groups in Western societies.”

You cannot be serious!

No, comparing the WTA/ATP relationship to the LPGA/PGA and especially NBA/WNBA is not the same. It’s apples and oranges.


George Says:

I understand anger towards Moore comments as his language was indeed inappropriate. However, Djokovic put his views across in a polite and sensitive manner. I am not sure why some news media (BBC etc.), including this blog, started witch hunt on Djokovic by misrepresenting what he said (he never said “should”)? Was it just an opportunity to jump up on Djokovic (again)? If Federer said the same thing would this be represented in the same way? I do not have answers. Maybe, the writer of this blog can comment on this and tell us why he/she inaccurately represented what Djokovic actually said.


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

I assure you that I am very serious and knowledgeable about this, and that it’s something that’s not even a question among experts.


Ben Pronin Says:

Experts on what? Marginalizing women and minorities?

I’m knowledgeable about this, too. We can all make whatever claims we want.


jane Says:

george, it’s par for the course.

i am all for working class and non-western perspectives, but this idea of cf1′s that feminism or academics are to blame for so much is ridiculous.

feminism followed from abolitionist and civil rights movements, all of which seek equality and that’s all. and most academics seek to reveal knowledge and to enlighten. these are admirable goals so to belittle them is backwards. donald trump, a proto-facsist, appeals to such thought.

sure, our culture moves towards excessive PC at times; and yes, the extreme left can be as stifling as the extreme right, but if you really want to blame something for PC culture, i suggest you look no further than social media.

it’s the “big brother” of the internet and the media’s tendency to vilify and crucify – as george sensibly points out – that is the REAL problem. not people who seek equality and knowledge.


Markus Says:

I think that women in other sports like basketball and golf work maybe just as hard as the men. But women get paid so much less because the compensation should depend on the revenue they generate. Who cries about sexism in those sports? This happens only in tennis.

Djokovic was simply voicing his opinion on what he thinks is fair compensation. Political correctness is not always correct.


mat4 Says:

@George:

There’s no real witch hunt in the non-English speaking world. I checked some articles in French, and the views are more balanced, and Novak’s words are given in their integrity. Even the comments are OK.

Even on English-speaking blogs, the view differs. Go to tennis-prose, e.g.

But yes, it seems that something is in preparation. It’s more and more serious: a few years ago, we had the “egg” story. It was utter nonsense, since federations use similar devices, not to mention other players that do it for years (I can name names here, although I can’t always give the sources). Then, there was the Armstrong case, and attacks directed at Novak — the press did it openly (just read an article from 2013 yesterday), while everybody now is crying crocodile tears after Bachelot’s statements about Rafa. Etc., etc.

Then, there was the Troicki case, and the way the WADA treated Novak (was it the WADA, or the ITF?), being secluded for 5 hours in the locker-room.


Ben Pronin Says:

Did Azarenka work less hard than Djokovic to win the title in Indian Wells? The only place women work “less hard” is in the slams. So let’s just focus on Indian Wells for now, where that argument doesn’t work.

Then, Djokovic claims we have the stats regarding who’s really generating the revenue. And that’s fair. Forget about what’s PC and what isn’t. He made a valid point, sure. But by the same token, is anyone really buying their tickets to see Juan Monaco face Michael Berrer in the first round? Venus lost to Kurumi Nara in the second round. Of these 4 players, who do you think generated the most revenue?

The issue with Djokovic’s notion is that if you’re going to pay based on revenue, why stop at men vs women? Why not go based on players. Murray lost in round 3 but surely he was a bigger draw than David Goffin. So should Murray be paid more than Goffin for losing earlier? Are players paid based on revenue or based on performance? It can’t be both.

And it’s been pointed out that in the early 2000s, the WTA reigned supreme. It was the bigger draw with the bigger names until Federer came around and ushered in the beginning of the Big 4 era. But women didn’t get equal pay then. They didn’t get equal pay until just a few years ago. But now that they do it’s “oh man, the men are such victims, having to earn the same as these women.” Holy shit get a grip.


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

No, you are not knowledgeable, and it is evident from your answers. Why avoiding positive discrimination is a way of marginalisation? Then, marginal groups — sorry, but that’s the law of numbers — should remain marginal.


Ben Pronin Says:

Tell me how Indian Wells is positive discriminating by paying women equal to the men. Specifically, how is it sexist or reverse-sexist or whatever you want to call it?


Ahfi Says:

There seems to be a debate about exactly what he said so I will leave that alone. Other than that, I just want to say like father, like son – they sure know how to put their ‘foot deep down their throat’.

Regarding women’s ‘hormone’ issues (if he did say that), some of the men, including Novak, appear to me to have some hormonal issues of their own, if you ask me. Sorry I had to go there!

My last point. I think the ATP tour needs to focus more at this point on ‘finding’ players who can defeat Novak in the finals of tournaments. The men’s final is facing the danger of less viewership. It has become a one-sided affair! Maybe, we should end it at the SEMIS!


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

Sorry, but read carefully what I wrote. I don’t intend to repeat myself because you didn’t put your spectacles on.

While we’re at that, tell me why should Azarenka earn more money than my surgeon friend who works as hard, and saves lives everyday.

You don’t even try to debate with real arguments. The question is very delicate — I gave a few arguments above myself, but George, James and CF1 who are native speakers expressed part of my views (because I wrote specifically that I believe that ladies should earn the same money the slams excepted) with much more nuances than I am able myself.

The remark about positive discrimination and marginalization had a general meaning, and was not limited to tennis.


Ahfi Says:

@Ben Pronin, your last paragraph at 11.35am is very true!! The women used to bring in most of the revenue until Federer showed up and started defeating everybody! I was there!!


mat4 Says:

@Ahfi:

Please read Novak’s interview before commenting: he said this in a positive way, emphasizing the sacrifices and the abnegation women have to do to to play sport (tennis) at a top level.


mat4 Says:

What Ben wrote about the WTA tour is at least debatable, without any proofs whatsoever.


Ahfi Says:

@Mat4, I get it but I don’t think we should be bringing into Tennis things like hormones etc. We all know about it, right? We don’t need reminders. I guess that’s my point.


Ben Pronin Says:

“While we’re at that, tell me why should Azarenka earn more money than my surgeon friend who works as hard, and saves lives everyday.”

Sorry man, this is a straw man argument.

I’m going to leave this here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/35863208

I can only tolerate so much annoyance when dealing with bigots, racists, and sexists who are all obviously white males and want to cry about how unfair the world around them is.


George Says:

How players should be paid and how money should be distributed is a complex issue that requires hard work and a lot of expertise to be resolved. What worries me is attitude towards Djokovic. As Ahfi put it “I think the ATP tour needs to focus more at this point on ‘finding’ players who can defeat Novak in the finals of tournaments” effectively calling for use of any possible means to stop Djokovic (what one should do when there are no such players?; any resemblance to “must die, must die, this Jesus must die”; Seles?). Did anyone called for Federer to be stopped in his time of dominance? If it is like this when Djokovic is at 11, what will be when he is at 15?


mat4 Says:

@Ahfi:

As a sign of respect, why not.

It wasn’t only the question of hormones, but the fact that top women athletes had the difficult choice between having children or making a career, something men don’t. It was said in a respectful way, and it is a good argument for equal fees, IMHO.

Finally, I would like to make my pow completely clear, to avoid misunderstandings:

1. I believe that there is to much money in sport, and that athletes should earn much less, while doctors, engineers, teachers, workers, should earn more.

2. Since there’s the money from endorsements, money should be distributed more equally among the athletes.

3. I am for the same fees for the same work.

I don’t see why a players that has won one game less, or three points less, should earn nothing while the winners takes it all too.

The difference in money earned should correspond in real differences in craft and results. A player that wins a slam should earn at most 1/7 more than the other finalist, or something similar, if we chose to use a more sophisticated way to compare results.

And I believe it should be in all sports, and not only in sports.


jalep Says:

“I can only tolerate so much annoyance when dealing with bigots, racists, and sexists who are all obviously white males and want to cry about how unfair the world around them is.”

It’s out of control.

Tennis-X. will you please get a Miami WTA thread going!?


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

The usual argument when one has no arguments is to call names; here, the list was exhaustive, I see. I won’t return the favour, although you fully deserve it.

Finally, I am not ashamed of being a male, a Catholic, and white. Socrates, fyi, was also a male, and white. I guess he wasn’t a Christian, though, and I guess that if I haven’t read anything of his writings, it’s not because I am a bigot, but because he didn’t write anything.


mat4 Says:

@Ben:

Sorry, I forgot you didn’t read Socrates either.


mat4 Says:

Hi, jalep. You better run from here, it’s getting nasty.


Django Says:

Why is this so hard?
Why can’t people get paid for equal work? Let wta and atp play five sets in slams. If wta doesn’t want the women to play five for some reason then men should play three sets also. Simple!


mat4 Says:

@George:

Great comment again. I’ll let you do the talk from now on.


jalep Says:

I come and go as I please, mat4. And when I do leave, it’s of my own choosing – for the usual reason of it being repetitive content in a very limited, boring and narrow way.


Van Persie Says:

There is no problem, when women mention the word testosterone, so I do not see what Nole did so wrong…


Van Persie Says:

Agree with Mat4, George is precious ;)


Okiegal Says:

I have only read the first four comments and no more, so I don’t know if anyone has hit on how I think about this equal pay thing, so I may or may not be echoing someone else’s thoughts on the matter……so here goes!

Being a bank teller is an occupation for both men and women.
Does the male bank teller know anymore or work any harder than the female bank teller? Probably not. I worked all my life in an office of men and women and the men were slackers……just thought I would throw that that in. I have a good friend, a female that this happened to and she took it to the higher ups in the bank and she won! Started drawing equal pay. They were paying the men more when hired above what she was making even though she had been there longer….

Tennis is an occupation for men and women. Do the men train any harder than the women?? Some may or may not (both genders) I don’t know….that’s questionable. But what I do know is this, Mr. Moore said way too much because he indulged in way too much alcohol. Alcohol or not he told the world how he really feels. I am very surprised that Novak followed suit and I am pretty sure he was sober when he said what he did. He is not helping himself in the popularity department. What is going to be interesting is to stand back and see what other male players will agree with him……Step forward brave men….If I was a male player and thinks like Novak, which I am sure they do, I think I would keep my lips closed on the matter. There may be links out there with answers from other players….if so maybe someone could post them…..I am curious.
For the record I would like to see the women in a 5 set format to see how it would play out. But in all reality women don’t have the stamina of men. So I feel the WTA would suffer. But the big question atm is should they be punished for that when it comes to their salary??

I am partial to men’s tennis but I don’t think the women should be punished for that either. And I am sure there are many fans out there who prefer the ladies…..I know my hubby did….for obvious reasons, he preferred the gals in shorts as opposed to the guys!! LOL I know that is sexist sounding, but a true statement……I call it like I see it…….I’m done and I’m sure y’all are sooooo glad! :)


Markus Says:

The only time I watch women’s tennis is when Serena is playing and that’s only for slams or big combined events. Other women’s events, I don’t watch at all because I just don’t find women’s tennis (except Serena’s) interesting.

Men’s tennis, I watch more regularly and more often, not just when any of the top 10 guys are playing. There are so many very good men’s tennis players and that what keeps me interested. Women’s tennis simply do not have good players. There’s only Serena. Azarenka, you ask? Good but she is just so noisy that it grates on my nerves watching her.

Am I the only one who feel this way about men’s and women’s tennis?


Van Persie Says:

One last thing: if women want to be equals to men, they should stop beeing so damn sensitiv….


MMT Says:

I think the problem with what Djokovic (and all the spokesmen for the ATP for that matter) are saying is contradicted by having joint events. Essentially what they’re doing when they bundle men’s and women’s tennis together is to support the less coveted product by forcing people to buy tickets to the less coveted product if they want any product at all. The fact is, nobody would watch Gilles Simon play Gilles Muller in the stadium court unless Sharapova or Serena Williams were coming up next on the court. By the same token, most wouldn’t watch some random “ova” playing some other random “ovic” unless there was rather specific Nadal or Federer coming up next.

Both tours benefit from bundling the least appealing elements of their product with the most appealing elements of the other, and you can’t have your cake and eat it too. The logical extension of Djokovic’s argument is that the tournaments should be separate. Of course, he’s not arguing for that, he’s just saying they should be paid more for doing the exact same thing.

At the majors, it’s a different story – the men play more and it’s unfair that they are paid relatively less. But at these best of 3 events, I don’t see any reason why they should be paid more unless the events are indeed separate. Until then, the ATP players should put up (split the events) or shut up.


Okiegal Says:

@VP………I have seen some sensitive male players before……isn’t crying a form of being sensitive??

I know that women aren’t physically equal to men, but should that be taken into account when it comes to salary??


Green Lady Says:

I think Novaks right, and its not sexist, im a woman and i think as men play best of 5 they should get more money, if women want equal money they should also play 5 setters, however in the masters and other tournies, then they should get equal prize money ….

My actuall gripe is that the top tennis players, and other sports personalities get extorionate amounts of money, yet the lesser ones get a pittance in comparison ….

And yes Mat4, Doctors,Nurses, deserve every penny they earn, not forgetting us care workers who earn a pittance …..


Green Lady Says:

Okie exactly, Stop been so sensitive ? ,Roger,Rafa,Novak,Andy,Delpo etc ,have all cried ,because they are sensitive, both sexes are sensitive ….


jalep Says:

Okiegal, great post @ 1:11pm

When I see you investing in a long post, I read it because I know it’s going to be worthwhile.

Agree, always have about women playing 5 sets. We do have the stamina for it. It’s a different feat of accomplishment entirely from the 3 set format. And female athletes can handle it, for the love of God, hormones and all.

I’m a female athlete – and that likely does have very much to do with my appreciation for the work it requires. Also why it makes me sick when accomplishments are reduced and subjected to sexist slurs like “get on your knees and thank Roger and Rafa.” No Thanks!!


Van Persie Says:

Okie,

I meant, if we want equality, we should stop asking from men to be gentlemen.


Green Lady Says:

Hi Jalep, nice to see you here ….


Van Persie Says:

I do not get one thing: there are some civilized countries where men remain broke after a divorce. Not to mention the child support.


jalep Says:

Hi Alison 😙

Van Persie, I’m not sure what you mean @ 2:04pm. But I’m not worried about whatever Nole ole said. He’s young. Jelena will help him out. She’s the best thing that ever happened to him, imo. Better than all his talent and millions.

But the draw is out! I’m going to go look at both ATP and WTA draws for awhile. Excuse me.


Green Lady Says:

Jalep its not often you call me by my real name, did i do something wrong ? ….


Van Persie Says:

Jalep,

Hello ;)
I am sure that Nole does not really cares about the money anymore. He just wanted to help the CEO a bit ;)…Nole respects women :)
The comment of that CEO was really nasty

Nole is a really good guy. When everybody considered Becker a joke in Germany, he trusted him. Nole is the kind of guy, who sees beyound image…and that’s why I love him. He’s a good man, who does not judge others :)


jalep Says:

Of course not – it’s your original moniker. Sorry, didn’t mean anything too deep by it.

Do you remember me as carlo? I’m thinking of going back to that one or something similar. Call me whichever moniker you want or compliments your mood at the time ☺


Green Lady Says:

Jalep i like all your monikors, i remember when i first posted, and you were Carlo, no offence but i said at the time i thought you were male, Grendel called me Alison Hodge, and i said he made me sound like a naughty school girl, and he said go to your room and dont come out till Wimbledon has finished, and you put up a link of Arnie with a cane, and said it was for myself and Grendel, it was funny lol, i like this one though, i think Jalep suits you, but Carlo has good memories for me personally ….


mat4 Says:

No, GG, I don’t see what you could have done wrong.

You’re too anxious, most of the time. Anyway, we all know here that you’re a nice poster, you never offended anybody, and I doubt that anybody can be angry at you.

Anyway, I know that when I write “Alison” it is always in a nice way. So, don’t worry.


Green Lady Says:

Mat4 im a sensitive person im afraid but thanks anyway, and sorry about your bad news ….


mat4 Says:

I see I’m late with the answer about the moniker.

To continue the previous debate: I don’t agree with women playing 5 sets. I don’t believe that sport should become a gladiatorial fight, and it’s already on the verge of becoming something like this.

Then, athletes have the right not to be tested to their physical limits, not to be crippled at the end of their careers, and the same applies both for men and women. But women have an additional topic: they have the right to become mothers, and sport shouldn’t alter this.

I love boxing, but, if I could, I would perhaps forbid it. I’d forbid UF and the likes certainly. I am for way more security in car races.

That’s the reason I am against doping, which can be extremely dangerous, even under rigorous medical control. And when one player is doping, to achieve results everybody has to dope. That’s what happen in cycling.


mat4 Says:

@GG:

you mean the other day? Bad news were related to my work, unfortunately. My family is ok, and my health is better now. Don’t worry.


Green Lady Says:

Mat4 all true, but im still of the impression if women want equal pay they should do equal the work, and they did choose to play tennis, its not like they had no choice, my two cents ….


Green Lady Says:

Mat4 i spend most of my life worrying about other people im afraid ….


mat4 Says:

@GG:

It’s very complicated, but it’s a topic worth arguing, imho.


Okiegal Says:

I have been out all afternoon and just now read the entire thread…….saw some good comments from everyone with different slants on the subject. Some agreed with me. The worst thing Mr. Moore said imho was him bringing up the attractive and the no so attractive of women’s tennis. I don’t get that comment at all. What do looks in sport have to do with the price of tea in China?? ……..just saying……Stupid statement……and btw men are hormonal too….me thinks!! Lived with one long enough to know!! LOL


Okiegal Says:

@jalep….Not my intention to pick on females about stamina. I can see in a 5 set format some very tired ladies not be able to serve effectively. Having never played tennis, I am surely not the person to be giving an opinion on that, should have kept my trap shut….and thanks for the nice compliment given to me about a worthwhile read. Appreciate it! Those are few and far between……

I guess we can all agree to disagree on the subject and get on with our bad selves!! LOL


Tennisfan Says:

The article linked at March 21st, 12:28pm was a great read! A very measured and logical view on the issue imo


Kathie Dowe Says:

Tarzan know where Tarzan Go….


Noonen Says:

This is not politically correct I know but I find women’s tennis boring.

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