Djokovic Beats Nadal For Third ATP Finals Title, Extends Win Streak To 22
by Staff | November 11th, 2013, 9:36 pm
  • 289 Comments

Novak Djokovic collected his third career ATP Finals titles with a 6-3, 6-4 victory over rival Rafael Nadal earlier today in London.

Both players entered this their 39th meeting and the final undefeated but it was Djokovic denying Nadal a first ATP Finals title with a resounding triumph.

With 17,000 watching in the O2, Djokovic smacked 19 winners to Nadal’s just nine, and seemed unconcerned by the Spaniard’s heavy groudstrokes which have confounded so many.

“We push each other to the limit [and] we make each other better,” said Djokovic who wins his 17th career match against Nadal to 22 losses. “We make each other work harder on our games, especially when we play against each other. It’s always a huge challenge.

“This can serve as a great platform for 2014 season. I’m extra motivated and inspired to work and get myself, first of all, rested and recovered in the off season, and then work on my game and get ready for Australian Open.”

Nadal had won two of three against Djokovic at the event, but today never really was in the match in part due to several double faults and a shaky backhand. He did mount a late charge at the end, pushing Djokovic, however it was a little too late.

“One thing that made the difference in today’s match was the serve,” said Nadal. “I didn’t serve well, he served well. On this kind of court, the first shot is very important and he hit that first shot much better than me.

“I think at the beginning he was playing much better than me. The first three games, no doubt. Even the fourth…After that I didn’t see that difference. I felt I was playing aggressively, going for the shots. I had the control of the points a lot of times with my forehand after the [first] three games.”

The win gave Djokovic $1,923,000 in prize money and 1,500 Rankings points while 27-year-old Nadal took home $1,013,000 and 1,000 points as he dropped to a 10-4 record in finals this year.

Nadal is guaranteed of finishing No. 1 but Novak’s win puts him in position to potentially pass Nadal in March if not sooner.

Despite the loss, Nadal ends what was arguably his best season finishing at the top spot with 10 titles including the French and the US Opens after serious doubt when he returned in February.

“Is very special what happened this year,” said Nadal who missed the tournament last year. “For me, the emotions of this year after a tough year for all of us have been fantastic. And certainly is the day to say congratulations and thanks to all the people who were behind me supporting me, let me work in the days that I was down. So just thanks to all of them to give me the opportunity to be back where I am.”

Nadal says he’ll now go to Necker Island for an exo with Richard Branson before flying to South America for more exos. He plans to return to Spain on November 26.

For Djokovic, he’ll look to continue his 22 match winning streak next weekend in the Davis Cup final in Belgrade against the Czechs. And then ride the wave to next season.

“Well, next to the run that I had in 2011, this is definitely the second best I’ve had,” the Serb said of his streak. “Just for me, the most positive thing that I can take from this two and a half months is the fact that I managed to regroup after a few big losses after Nadal, especially Roland Garros, US Open final and Wimbledon final.

“This can serve as a great platform for 2014 season. I’m extra motivated and inspired to work and get myself, first of all, rested and recovered in the off‑season, and then work on my game and get ready for Australian Open.”

In the doubles final, No. 6 seeded Spaniards David Marrero and Fernando Verdasco defeat World No. 1 and three-time season finale champions Bob and Mike Bryan 7-5, 6-7(3), 10-7 in their first year-end championship. Marrero and Verdasco are the second straight Spanish team to win the season finale title after Marcel Granollers and Marc Lopez last year and third overall (Juan Gisbert-Manuel Orantes in 1975).

“It was a special victory… You don’t win a tournament like this every day,” Verdasco said. “I am really going to try to enjoy it. I think it’s the best way to go on holidays. Then try to work hard for next season to be competitive and try to fight for the big tournaments.”


Also Check Out:
Azarenka Slams Sharapova For Beijing Title, Extends No. 1 Lead
Nadal Reigns In Rome, Beats Djokovic For Second Straight Time To Win Sixth Title At Foro Italico
Djokovic Denies Federer; Nadal Gains Revenge On Ferrer At ATP Finals, Can Clinch No. 1 Wednesday
Berlocq, Klizan, Suarez Navarro Win ATP/WTA Titles
Andy Murray Extends Coaching Relationship With Amelie Mauresmo For The “Long Term”

Don't miss any tennis action, stay connected with Tennis-X

Get Tennis-X news FREE in your inbox every day

289 Comments for Djokovic Beats Nadal For Third ATP Finals Title, Extends Win Streak To 22

qwerty Says:

rafa made bunch of UE. but what we saw after USO is well determined nole to try everything to finish the year at no. 1. it’s 3:3 nole vs rafa this year but in the last 2 match, especially in beijing, nole had the right mindset. i think there is no doubt who is the better player when nole is mentally ready. i’m not trying to minimize nadal’s game, it’s obvious he is the goat, but when nole is “ready”, he is the best without doubt. we saw that in the last couple of months. nole will be no. 1 again after clay court masters, and if rafa is healthy, next season will be one to remember.


metan Says:

Congrats to Nole and all his fans here named a few Courbon and Patson and Mat4 and and and ….be happy!!!


Steve 27 Says:

Nadal is guaranteed of finishing No. 1 but Novak’s win puts him in position to potentially pass Nadal in March if not sooner.

No, Nadal would be 1 until may at least.


metan Says:

I am really disappointed coz Rafa couldn’t even pull a set. Argh!!! Hope he could learn from Nole and he will be better for next year. After all he has given us 10 titles. Not bad. Thanks RAFA!!


WTF Says:

Hasn’t lost since USO final? I think he can retake the #1 ranking in a few months when Rafa starts to defend his points. He’s on a roll similar to the run Rafa had between Wimbledon and Beijing or Shanghai. 2 masters and a major.


WTF Says:

metan: What is there to learn?

Nole is just better than him on indoor hard, or hardcourts in general.

This would be like saying players can learn from Rafa and win the French Open. OK. Easier said than done.


skeezer Says:

@WTF
10:04 post.
Agree there.


Patson Says:

I simply cannot wait for the Oz open. 2014 seems to have Novak written all over it.


Perfect fan Says:

Congrats to Nole & fans for a great strong finish to the year…..he is indeed as somebody rightly pointed out the most dangerous No. 2 player….he really is playing like on a mission to take back his crown asap.

But all said, congrats to rafa & fans too for having a memorable & productive year as well.

allez fed :)


skeezer Says:

“Djokovic Beats Nadal For Third ATP Finals Title, Extends Win Streak To 22″

Where is rafafanatical talk of the infamous “slice tennis”, the fanatic 3some sockpuppets “giles, holdserve and hawkeye?”
Lose a match and…gone. Small Gonads.
The trash talking suddenly came to a screaching halt. LOL.
Why? Losing another final to Djoker? The all time record final losing to Nole continues. It will never be broken in this era.
PS; Thanks for putting all your fans in proper place about GOATness. I support you 1000%.
Allez Fed!


Michael Says:

Congratulations to Novak for this superb win. He has finished the year in style and grace by winning the prestigious Year end Championships. Just like Metan, I was only surprised by the scoreline as I thought it would extend to three sets whoever may be the winner because Rafa was on form and was looking at ease even on indoor Courts which normally doesn’t suit his style of game. Nevertheless, you have got to give this guy named Novak Djokovic due respects which he is not getting from the Tennis World unfortunately. He is the only one in the entire Tennis circuit who can take the challenge to Rafa and that too on a continual basis. He is also the player who broke the hegemony of Roger and Rafa and their magical grip on the Tennis World.


Michael Says:

Bad luck to Rafa. It was not his day and Novak was looking in superb form out there. His forehand and backhand shots down the line and cross court shots hit with precision and power were troubling Rafa to no end. And there is nobody on the Tennis Circuit who makes Rafa sweet and run so much on court than Novak. He makes him move hither and dither. His style of game suits him undoubtedly and he is able to handle that vicious top spin game with ease. It is against Rafa, Novak looks the most aggressive hitting many winners. He doesn’t do that much against other players where he just slogs. But against Rafa, he knows that slogging might not work because Rafa is a great retriever perhaps the Greatest. Nevertheless, there is still time left for Rafa. He is afterall only 27 years old and he will have some more opportunities to win this Year end Championships which has eluded him so far.


WTF Says:

skeezer: “Why? Losing another final to Djoker? The all time record final losing to Nole continues. It will never be broken in this era.”

I’m not sure what this all time record is about… I just went and checked the numbers.

In terms of finals, Djokovic has won 10 finals against Rafa, and Rafa has won 9 finals against Djoker. The difference is a whopping ONE final. Hardly a record that will never be broken.

I’m not even sure what the record is. Finals win against any same opponent? Finals defeats against Djo?


WTF Says:

“The all time record final losing to Nole continues.”

This isn’t a stat the ATP tracks. It’s very selective.

Ask any player if they’d rather have Rafa’s career or Nole’s, and 10 out of 10 will rather have Rafa’s.

Greatness isn’t measured by how many finals you won against one particular opponent. It’s the number titles you won overall in particular grand slams, head to head overall, career prize money, weeks spent at #1, etc.

Rafa has a winning head to head against Nole. Who cares if not all of them were in finals? You have no control over what round you actually play the other guy. A win in a final is as good as a win in the 1st round. Beating them in an earlier round is even better, because it denies the other guy more rankings points and cash.


roy Says:

”all time final losing to nole”

i thought federer fans only cared about slams?
what’s the slam final record nole versus nadal?
3 all?
what’s the grand slam record nole versus nadal?
3/6 nadal’s way? take off nole’s infected toe loss at wimbledon … 3/5 nadal’s way?

what i’d like to know is how they managed to change that london indoor surface from clay speed during the federer match to fast hardcourt for the novak final. if federer had played nadal on the court in the final he would have won for sure. because he’s an artist on court who paints forehands.


madmax Says:

More concerning is NOT rafa’s loss (to be expected, he is tired and has bad knees), is his request to move the indoors hard to outdoors clay!

God! Unbelievable!

“Djokovic took an hour and 36 minutes of edgy tennis that hit few peaks to win 6-3, 6-4 in front of the 16th consecutive full house of the week at the Greenwich venue.

Nadal’s earlier call for the ATP World Tour Finals, the game’s championship of the champions, to be moved to his favoured clay when the London contract expires at the end of 2015 after five successful years will find no favour with either the patrons or the sponsors – and the whisper is it will stay on the banks of the Thames for a little while yet.

As long as it does Nadal will struggle to win it.

His only trophy on hard court indoors was in Madrid eight years ago and he is visibly frustrated when unable to take longer building a point, as he does so impressively on the red dirt of Europe.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/11/novak-djokovic-rafael-nadal-world-tour-finals


I Love Tennis Says:

Congratulatuions to Novak, a very impressive win over Nadal.


Eric Says:

Djokovic was simply, definitively, the better player. Rafa’s very best deserted him; and the best shots he could make — very good shots indeed — simply troubled Novak no more than mine would have, by and large. At the end Rafa played some inspired tennis, but it was like holding on tight to something that is already falling down a cliff with you. Really fantastic effort from Djokovic.

That said, today was today. 2014 is a whole new season.

I am confused about the math implied in this story, too. Surely there is no serious chance that Djokovic would be able to take back the no. 1 ranking before the clay season, no (as our hero would say…)? Since Djokovic is defending many points – 2000 from the Australian Open, obviously – while Rafa has 0, it seems very unlikely that their positions in the standings will swap any time soon…


Giles Says:

Skeezer the poster without comprehension skills is right on cue after a Rafa loss throwing insults at Rafans. Geez. really bitter Fedfan (22-10).
If you look on another thread skeezer you will see quite a few posts from Rafans after this loss. Rafans font run away and hide under a rock when their man loses, as you do. We are always supporting Rafa, win or lose
@mat zero. Rafa is not calling for a clay surface for the WTF. He is calling for a variation in surfaces. Read his words.


Giles Says:

@Eric. As of today’s rankings Rafa is 920 pts ahead. He is defending 900 pts in the clay swing in February and 1000 pts in IW. Didn’t play Miami last year so could add. Defending 0 pts in Australia so could gain. So that’s the scenario up to March. I think he will be OK at least till March.And then we have the clay season.


mat4 Says:

@Giles:

@mat zero. Rafa is not calling for a clay surface for the WTF. He is calling for a variation in surfaces. Read his words.

First, I didn’t write that post. So please do read before answering.

And yes, Rafa calls for clay. A short analysis of what the most influential players declared will show that Fed is always for tradition, Novak for innovation, and Rafa is always for clay.


Giles Says:

^ Apologies my post should have been directed to
@madmax


Giles Says:

The ATP really needs to be more imaginative in their choice of surface for this glorified Exo . Why not vary the surface every 3 years or so? There is a choice, outdoor HC, grass and dare I mention the word clay. What is their problem? Too lazy to make a change?


mat4 Says:

Everything now depends, in my opinion, of of Novak.

Rafa’s clearly was intimidated in long stretches of the match, and he played boldly only when he had nothing to lose and Novak was a bit tense. It is clear that when Djokovic is in form, their is a marked difference between them, and Rafa knows it. Looking at the stats, it was obvious that the final was a beat down. Ominous for Rafa and rafans.

Then, there is another thing: this year, Rafa chose his battles, skipping tournaments he couldn’t win. He remained a surprise for most of the top ten until the fall season. Choosing his turf, he built a big psychological capital to work with. But, knowing him, I think he will try to defend his no 1 ranking, and he will be exposed of fast surfaces, and it is never good for a personality like Rafa — another loss to Del Po or Novak will force the tournament organizers to fix draws like never. And since there is a consensus that the surfaces have to be sped up, a Federer back in form (and since he has no back problems it is quite probable), could be disastrous for the Spaniard.

Rafa played great this season, but this was a subpar year for most of his opponents: Djokovic wasn’t himself after Dubai, tweaking with his new racquet, Murray was hurt most of the season, Federer too, and he avoided DelPo by “miracle” almost everywhere.

Then, there are his knees. For a player who doesn’t miss a single tournament to defend point, or a single exho to collect money, they are in good shape for the moment. Especially when it is clear that he didn’t do anything to heal them, he just rested for a few months. And we all know that after every heavy loss the pain in the knees reappears, so, if Rafa loses early in any tournament, or consecutively against Novak, Del Potro or Murray (he can manage the pain after a loss against Roger), his knee problems will be there again, heavier than ever…


mat4 Says:

@Giles:

Roland Garros should be more imaginative in its choice of surface: the USO changed from green clay to hard, the AO from grass to hard, why not RG? Especially since there is only 9% of CC courts in France, and all French players are better on hard.


Giles Says:

^^^ Nah, dream on. Roland Garros is Roland Garros. Will always be clay. So are you saying there should only be HC slams and no clay slam?


Giles Says:

@mat zero. Just stop with your theories for goodness sake. I know you hate Rafa, you even said so yourself. Rafa will do what’s best for Rafa and you can rant all you want about his knees, his knees, his knees. Oh BTW, you seem to know a lot about his knees. Do you have any expert knowledge on the subject?
Just remember now that Rafa is the World #1 now and not joker. Accept it. Joker has to earn it back and until then this Rafan is going to enjoy every single week he keeps that ranking.
Vamos Rafa!
Stay Healthy!


gonzalowski Says:

Hi! Congrats to Nole and his fans, and to Sean, nice writing and you hit the score.
And congrats to Rafa, thanks for the year you have given to us.
Unfortunately I agree with mat4, sometimes Rafa looks a bit intimidated by Djoko, but maybe only at indoors and on Hc; and it’s normal, when Nole plays at these weeks level. Let’s see AO.
And I think is true that Rafa half-skipped some tournaments this year, as Paris-Bercy where he quit a bit on SF.


Giles Says:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVzIKgRCYAAR9eO.jpg
Rafa fans. Take a look at this graph and see what our Matador has achieved after being out of the tour for 7 months and not touching a racquet. Pretty impressive.
Vamos Champ
Lots of good luck for 2014.


SmashingAces Says:

Rafa never gave himself a chance with the UE. Against an opponent like Novak you’re gonna get punished every day for this!

Saying that, Novak took the game to Rafa like only he can and for this I have to congratulate him!

Still have to get a…..’Vamos Rafa’ in!! :)


Bad Knee Rules Says:

@mat4@4:53am

Good one.


gonzalowski Says:

Thanks giles! And Rafa is now 980pts. lead.

One thing Rafa said yesterday was he couldn’t get used to London balls. “The ball is hard to my playing style, it’s hard it to get the effects I like, and I think Nole understand it much better than me”


Giles Says:

Indoor HC will never be good for Rafa’s game. He likes the elements. Sun and fresh air.He also plays very well in windy conditions unlike some.So, as long as the WTF remains indoor HC I am not holding out much hope for him to win this glorified Exo. Oh well, we can’t have it all. C’est la vie.


James Says:

For anyone interested, Nadal’s head to head vs the other members of the big four in slams:

vs Federer 8-2 = 80%

vs Djokovic 8-3 = 72.72%

vs Murray 6-2 = 75%

impressive, eh?


skeezer Says:

“Fed is always for tradition, Novak for innovation, and Rafa is always for clay.”
Classic ;)

@WTF
U are correct. My bad. i was thinkng about those consecutive finals he lost to Nole.


James Says:

I was disappointed with Rafa in the final, not because he lost to a better indoors player, but because he didn’t play as good as he could.

What Novak does is not in your hand, but how you serve, how you hit your routine forehand, these things are in your hand. This is where Rafa disappointed.

2014, however, will be a new season.

2013 was Nadal’s.


Vox Says:

Nole is the Dark knight of the tour ;)


Vox Says:

Nole is the Dark knight of the tour ;)


Giles Says:

skeezer. I see your comprehension skills or lack thereof, are still found wanting.
#GoBackToSchool


Daniel Says:

In their 39th meetings everytime Djoko wins the first sethe wins the match with the sole exception being Madrid 09′. He won a few from 1 set down but mainly all he won first set he wins the match.


Okiegal Says:

Congrats to Novak and his gracious fans. Another great performance from Joker Man. Not our Rafa’s best day…..but he did make the finals. Rafa came out extremely nervous…..like he always admits. This tourney has eluded him to this point, but no disgrace.How many players can boast of this record……8 French clays….WOW!

There must be several posters on this forum who are doctors, or at least knee specialists…..whatever!!

Vamos, Rafa, thanks for an amazing year. Rest up and best of luck for 2014!! (So glad you won US open….made my year)!!!!!


Okiegal Says:

Oh, by the way…not all Rafa fans went into hiding, Okiegal’s still here. It will take more than an indoor final loss to get rid of me. A fair person who gives credit where credit is due. Do I like for Rafa to lose?……not….but that is gonna happen, no????

Again, CONGRATS to Novak…..I will have to admit, you were amazing just like Rafa was at US Open this year!! You win some you lose some.


skeezer Says:

^you mean about those consecutive finals that Rafa lost to Nole in 2011? l know, for you, its hard to comprehend.


Alexandra Says:

Not Rafa’s day. Novak and Rafa each won three matches against the other this year. I think they can both live with that.
There is no need to predict next year. We will all witness what happens. If you only go by predictions, Rafa would not have played any role this year, since he was written off before he came back. Djokovic only started his big winning streak once it was clear he would lose No.1. He seems quite furious about it. So maybe Djokovic-fans should also be thankful to Rafa, it gave him a clear goal again. I think during he year Djokovic was more focused on Murray. Speaking of Andy, I hope he comes back into the mix soon again.


Okiegal Says:

@Skeezer

Why are you being rude? You don’t even know me. How can you make a statement that I can’t comprehend. I have never said anything unkind to you. I know you don’t like Rafa….to each his own, but I think you just want to fuss with someone…..not my cup of tea. When we have officially met in person…..then you can assume anything you like……in the meantime, you have a nice day, Skeez!!

VAMOS RAFA!!


skeezer Says:

9:07 post was for giles


Giles Says:

^^^ And this is for you!
22-10 and counting


Giles Says:

@skeezer. And this one is especially for you!
22-10
Looking forward to 23-10


Giles Says:

You see skeezer Rafans to the fore. We don’t hide under a rock when our fave loses. We look forward, not backward.


Okiegal Says:

So noted, Skeezer. I scrolled up and read the post. Sorry I jumped to conclusions. You and I have had friendly comments back and forth……even though we have a difference of opinions when it comes to tennis players, so I was surprised. Skeezer, are you the administrator of this site? The reason I ask is because you responded to my post and on the site it is showing up “comment awaiting moderation”. Just wondering how you were able to see it. Maybe you were responding to someone else. Okiegal.


Anna Says:

Awesome display by Nole throughout the indoor h/c season. Big congrats to all his fans. Looking forward to another incredible year of tennis next year, although as a Nadal fan, I really hate to leave this one behind. See you at the AO.


lwalters Says:

I find all the arguing about head to head stats quite annoying, as I’ve long suspected that Federer’s lowish wins on non-clay courts against Nadal is to a significant extent due to Nadal not doing well enough to actually have come up against Roger in many tournaments.

A few months ago I trawled through the tournaments in the four year period 2005 – 2008, and found that in those where they did not meet, Federer did better than Nadal in 19, compared to Nadal’s outperformance of Federer in 11 events. So the “virtual head to head” statistics for this period was 19/11 in Federer’s favour.

Here are the actual results:

“Virtual” head to head wins by Federer over Nadal & vice versa in tournies where they didn’t meet

2005 US Open – RF -winner, RN (2), lost to Blake (49), R32
2005 Cincinnati – RF – W, RN (2), lost yo Berdych (36), R64
2005 Wimbledon – RF -W, RN (3). lost to Muller (69), R64
2005 Halle – RF – W, RN (3), lost to Alexander Waske (147), R32
2005 Aussie Open – RF – lost in S to Safin (4), RN (56) lost in R16 to Hewitt (3)
2005 Doha – RF – W, RF (51) lost to Ljubicic (22), Q

2005 Monte Carlo, RN – W, RF (1) lost to Gasquet (101), Q

2006 Madrid (hard) – RF- W, RN (2) lost to Berdych, Q
2006 US Open – RF – W, RN (2) lost to Youzhny, Q
2006 Canada – RF – W, RN lost to Berdych (14), R16
2006 Miami – RF – W, RN lost to Moya (35), R64
2006 – Indian Wells – RF – W, RB lost to Blake (14), S

2006 Cincinnati -RN – Q lost to Ferrero (31), RF R32 lost to Murray

2007 Madrid Masters – RF – F lost to Nalbandian (25), RN lost to Nalbandian, Q
2007 US Open – RF – W, RN lost to Ferrer (15), R16
2007 Cincinnati – RF – W, RN lost to Monaco (25), R32
2007 Canada – RF – lost F to Djokovic (4), RN lost to Djokovic, S
2007 Dubai – RF – W, RN lost to Youhzny (18), Q
2007 Aussie Open – RF – W, RN lost to Gonzalez (9), Q

2007 Paris Masters – RN – F lost to Nalbandian (21), RF lost to Nalbandian, R16
2007 Rome – RN – W, RF lost to Volandri (53), R16
2007 Miami – RN – lost Q to Djokovic (10), RF lost to Canas (55), R16
2007 Indian Wells – RN – W, RF lost to Canas (60), R64

2008 US Open – RF – W, RN lost to Murray (4), S
2008 Rome – RF – lost Q to Stepanek (27), RN lost to Ferrero (23), R32

2008 Beijing Olympics – RN – W, RF lost to Blake (7), Q
2008 Cincinnati – RN lost to Djokovic (3), S, RF lost to Karlovic (22), R16
2008 Canada – RN – W, RF lost to Simon (22), R32
2008 Miami – RN – lost Final to Davydenko (4), RF lost to Roddick (6), Q
2008 Dubai – RN – lost Q to Roddick (6), RF lost to Murray, R32

RF – 19, RN – 11


madmax Says:

His only trophy on hard court indoors was in Madrid eight years ago and he is visibly frustrated when unable to take longer building a point, as he does so impressively on the red dirt of Europe.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/11/novak-djokovic-rafael-nadal-world-tour-finals

November 12th, 2013 at 2:02 am

Hey Giles this is for you.

Nadal should stop whining about changing ever surface to clay. There are more clay court tournament wins in his resume than ever, and why is that? Brought up on clay, loves clay, wants more titles on clay. Can’t deal so well with indoor hard court. That’s okay. Can’t have it all.


madmax Says:

17 slams to 13 slams.

Two can play your silly little game Giles.


Okiegal Says:

Understandably so……can’t blame him for that. Joker would probably prefer more indoor hard. It is nothing to be ridiculed for. Everybody has preferences in life……I prefer Coca Cola over Pepsi, oranges over apples…..and Rafa over Joker!!

Vamos Rafa!!!!!!!!


Giles Says:

madmax. Who became pro first and who has had the headstart? Oh yes the ole man, 5 years older than Rafa!!


SG1 Says:

LOL. To quote Benjamin Disraeli, “There are lies, damned lies…and then there are statistics.”


gonzalowski Says:

madmax,
Rafa has only 1 indoor important tournament, but more incredible, Fed has ONLY ONE sea-level clay important event, 20099 RG. No Rome or Mc and only 1 RG

Remarkable!


Steve 27 Says:

This is the diference between Nadal and Federer: The first has a formidable rival, the second, none. This is why the difference in GS until now, 4 more is a lot but until 31 he has a chance to equal.


Steve 27 Says:

mat4 compare head to head
Nadal Murray 13 5
Djokovic Murray 11 8

I like Andy but he is more threat to the serb than for Rafa and if someone has benefited in this end of year with all these titles is clearly Plexicunshiovic.
Nothing more to say


Anna Says:

Madmax – These were your silly little games long before Giles came to TennisX. Take a vacation, you need it.


skeezer Says:

H2H doesn’t get you 17 Slams.


Steve 27 Says:

With Roddick, Hewitt, yeah, a bunch of GS, lol.


skeezer Says:

“With Roddick, Hewitt, yeah, a bunch of GS, lol.”

With Nadal, Murray, Nole, Safin a bunch more GS, lol.


mat4 Says:

Steve 27:

Steve, compare the H2H in the last three years:

Nadal – Murray 2-2
Djokovic – Murray 7-5

In the last 2 years:

Murray – Nadal 1-0
Murray – Djokovic 4-5

So, the relevant stats are a bit different…


mat4 Says:

@Steven 27:

“This is the diference between Nadal and Federer: The first has a formidable rival, the second, none. This is why the difference in GS until now, 4 more is a lot but until 31 he has a chance to equal.”

Who says Rafa will play so long? He has injured knees, remember?


mat4 Says:

Let’s be serious for a minute, without silly games:

If a player specialize to play on clay, he can’t really expect every tournament to be played on clay for you to win. There are already a lot of clay tournaments, and this is a more homogeneous surface than the different kind of hard courts.

Then, excellence is related with versatility: Federer is a great player on clay, on grass, on hard, on slow courts, on hard courts, with modern strings, with a wooden racquet. He would also be a great player being lefty, or even playing only with his left foot.

If Rafa wasn’t lefty, where would he be? Just see how much difficulties he has against Verdasco, where he has no BH to target. He would be a great player, but behind Djokovic, Murray, Del Potro, a pumped up Ferrer. Nothing more.

And about the trophies: it is not 17 vs 13, it is in fact 23 vs 13. The WTF is probably harder to win than a major:

- never, never a player ranked above the 10th ranking won that tournament,
- and you have to play at least five to 8 players to win it.

That’s why, even when you fix the draw, Rafa can’t win it.


mat4 Says:

Made a few language errors, but still it is easy to understand…


Brando Says:

‘That’s why, even when you fix the draw, Rafa can’t win it.’:

^ It’s because of nonsensical bile like this that folks choose to stay from around here.


Brando Says:

stay away > stay from.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

At least, I have arguments. Where are yours? That I don’t have proofs? But stats, in science, are proof! Perhaps you don’t know it, so OK. You’re just uneducated, so it is not your fault.

But time and time again, it has been pointed that the draws were suspicious. It has even be demonstrated that, at the USO, in the first round, QF were paired with top seeds unusually often. It is a _proof_ of fixing. Not to mention the Federer-Djokovic fallacy, where the two best players on hard landed for four years in the same half of the slams.

So, it is easy to abuse of your knowledge of English, but here it is a question of facts, not of language. What ever you write, you can’t distort the facts: that Rafa was protected for years, and that the draws at the WTF, in IW, were highly suspicious in his favour, the way the draw at the AO was suspicious in Novak’s favour.


skeezer Says:

Brando,
Not true. Mat4 is intelligent as they come on this site and always welcome. Wayyy better insights and comments than the conitinual Vamos! Posters, or vamosheads, whatever you call them. As an example, because Rafa has never won the WTF, they repeatedly tried to falsely call it a glorifed exho. LMAO.


Giles Says:

mat zero. Rafa hater by admission!!


mat4 Says:

Finally, most of the old posters had left that site, bullied by a wild bunch of rafans. What do you expect? that I will show respect, be nice toward posters who don’t know anything about respect? fairness, objectivity?

To quote Thomas Hardy (or W. Sh., but does it really matter?):

“Criez pas de merci, lachez les chiens de guerre!”


Giles Says:

skeezer. Still on the bandwagon? Nowhere else to go?
Btw. for fedfans. Rumour flying around that Piatti the guy that dumped Gasquet just before his match with joker, will be coaching fed. Just a rumour at the moment.


mat4 Says:

@Skeezer:

In fact, this is something I wouldn’t eve wrote to Brando… but he asked for it, acting as the devil’s advocate (and I don’t mean Rafa).

But even when I am not serious, when I argue just to mock the vamos brigade, I try to write something sensible, I don’t call names, and try not to offend them personally.

But it is normal, quite usual for Fedfans, Nolefans… we are civilized, cultivated, and acting in another way would be a kind of treason of our favs.


Brando Says:

@Skeezer:

Re Mat4:

No comment.

Re WTF being a glorified exho:

Hey- it is!

Now i’m NOT one- nor have I ever done so- to knock down it’s importance.

It’s a clear fact: outside slams it’s the most prestigious title in all probability.

Davis Cup and recently Olympics (especially for the players) equal it in prestige/ desire to win for many.

But the question of is it a glorified exhibition?

Yes and No.

Yes:

The mere creation of it answers as to why it is so. It’s a showpiece event that was organised by the powers that be in order to showcase the best in a particular season in a finale that would be a spectacle that adds/ builds greater interest in the game.

It’s a select event. Invitation only. Held by the ATP to exhibit the best of a season plying their trade.

So in it’s mere creation alone one can see how it is actually a glorified exhibition.

This is not in dispute as it’s a blatant fact.

No:

When people dismiss it’s worth as being nothing other than a glorified exhibition then quite frankly speaking….. that’s idiocy.

It’s an important event, it has prestige, and most top players would desire a win there for sure.

Bottom line (yep it’s back):

When looking at it’s creation one can see it as such but to dismiss it’s value with such a put down is silly.

It’s a important tourny.


Giles Says:

http://alturl.com/rnhkh
Fed fanatics. You can google translate


Brando Says:

@Mat4:

‘ you can’t distort the facts: that Rafa was protected for years, ‘:

You are truly beyond ridiculous!

The ONLY distortion here that evident in it’s entirety is how ridiculous is your delusion in believing that the ATP for oh so many years has such an infatuation with Rafa that they are prepared to rig the draws in his favor over all.

What a load of baseless tosh that is NOT seen as fact anywhere else other than your own mind!

The actual FACT regarding this agenda of yours that you are pushing is this:

You are a sour fan.

A bummed out fan.

Why?

Since you CANNOT stomach the mere fact a player who you consider as inferior to your precious favorite has actually won way more slams, accolades than him.

Rather than ACCEPTING REALITY you take comfort in this baseless nonsense that if you belief is true then grow a pair and report it to some local newspaper, the ATP, ITF.

ANYONE other pushing nonsensical rubbish as fact online.

I have question for you:

You came here after a long while when ONLY Novak has just won the WTF. You start extolling how certain you are that x,y,z etc has him down as the best.

Fair enough. Like I care for rubbish being spewed.

But where the hell where you when:

1. Lost at RG?

2. When he got straight setted at Wimbledon without ANY tie breaks?

2. Post USO final loss?

Where were you- it didn’t see ANY posts from you post those matches, certainly ZERO bombastic statements on how the match is on Nole’s racquet.

I’ll tell you why you weren’t here:

Since you are one of those fans who has not got the stomach to stick around when his favs on a downer but is more than ready to talk rubbish like a cheer leading Queen when his fav wins!

You want to talk about Novak v Rafa: Well i’ll talk about that- and i’ll talk FACTS that you can find recorded in the record books:

AGE DIFFERENCE: 1 MERE YEAR.

WHO HAS PLAYED MORE CAREER MATCHES: Novak

Career achievements:

MOST WEEKS AT NUMBER 1: NADAL

MOST YE NUMBER ONES: NADAL

MOST NUMBER OF SLAMS: NADAL

MOST NUMBER OF MS TITLES: NADAL

MOST NUMBER OF CAREER TITLES: NADAL

MOST NUMBER OF DAVIS CUP TITLES: NADAL

MOST NUMBER OF OLYMPIC GOLD: NADAL

MOST WIN v THE OTHER PLAYER: NADAL

MOST MULTI SLAM WINNING YEARS: NADAL

MOST ACCLAIMED PLAYER IN TENNIS HISTORY OF THE 2: NADAL

What exactly can Novak claim ahead of Rafa?

ONLY more YE titles.

That’s it.

Big deal.

BOTTOM LINE:

You could come here and talk nonsense about how the game is rigged in favor of one guy, how your fav is the superior of the 2 but IF you have ANY shred of belief in that nonsense then do 1 of the following rather than talk ceaseless rubbish ANY fanatic can spew:

1. Send your accusations to a body/ organisation that may care for such rubbish….. without laughing loudly at it.

2. Stick around when Novak next takes a big loss (he ain’t that special that they won’t come boy).

And one more request:

Quit sucking up to certain Fed fans. It’s looks crass, tasteless and quite frankly speaking:

Pathetic.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

The WTF is not an exho.

First, you have to qualify in one way or another for every tournament on the ATP tour: through the qualifications, or with an adequate ranking.

For the WTF, you have to be ranked among the 8 players in the previous season. There is no more difficult qualification.

Just like in any other tournament, you earn money and points. The WTF is a lot of money and points: more than in any tournament of the Master series, just a bit less than in a slam. In average, more than in any tournament by match won.

The winner took 2 millions, the runner-up 1,3 million.

A lot of incentive to play for the win in every match.

It is definitely not an exho.


Giles Says:

@Brando. Great post.


Brando Says:

@Mat4:

Learn to read and then decide to respond to someone.

I said it clearly: the basis of it’s creation is similar to that of an exhibition: and the exhibition here is to showcase the best 8 of a said season at it’s end.

A showpiece event organised as a season ending finale that looks to celebrate the game with the most successful 8 players of a given season.

One things not in dispute though:

Even the WTF is a completely rigged, farcical event designed to (but sadly failing) see Rafael Nadal succeed over all as he does in the entire rigged previous weeks!

Why do I say this? Because Mat4 has told me so.

His word is the gospel truth.


Brando Says:

@Giles:

Thanks.

I could not care less for WTF back and forth’s, as well as the Fedal wars on here.

You know my posting history:

I opt out of those ridiculous mud slinging matches.

But when a poster talks absolute, baseless rubbish that they concoct and present as fact ONLY because they CANNOT stomach the picture REALITY paints then:

I’m sorry- but i’m going to call absolute BS what it is………..absolute BS.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

Just like I wrote above: I argue with facts. They can be distorted, wrong, but you have to prove me wrong, not to insult me.

Especially since I never wrote something offending about you personally, nor did I ever intend to do so. When Novak loses, yes, I admit, I feel a lot of deception, those are hard times, so I avoid to come here and vent my frustrations on rafans, fedfans, Brando and the like.

So, I sympathize with you. I know that it is not easy to keep your cool after yesterday’s beatdown and humiliation. I understand the terrible fear that you probably feel, that 2011 is all over again, and you won’t be able to brag here all the time, the fear that the GOAT chase will end, and that Fed will stay forever on every list in front of Rafa, not to mention the heart of most of the fans. I understand. You have a hard time. You have my support, even.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

You too: read my post. Just stated that the WTF is not an exho. Nothing about how and why it was created.


skeezer Says:

WTF’s format is not based on an exho format, whatever that is. Furthermore, it is not a “showcase” format. You have to earn the right to play there by your ranking.
WTF format is based on the ’round robin’ format, which goes way back in tennis rules. Get your facts straight.


Brando Says:

@Skeezer:

The other day folks here were lambasting your comprehension skills.

Honcho: I can see why now.

Why are you on about format?

Not ONCE in my post to you did I mention anything regarding it’s format.

You are yapping about a irrelevant aspect of the event that has ZERO relevance to what I am saying and was referring to.

As you were advised a few days ago:

Work on your comprehension skills bud!


Brando Says:

@Mat4:

‘ I argue with facts. ‘:

No. You argue as what you perceive to be facts…. in your own mind.

9/10 individuals out there find what you call/ consider as facts as pretty much outright laughable.

‘ I feel a lot of deception’:

LMFAO- no kidding on that point eh?

-’yesterday’s beatdown and humiliation’:

Beatdown? Humiliation?

LOL: sure chief, I feel ‘really’ humiliated for Rafa.

Poor guy: wins 10 titles in a year, beats his rival in the matches they played that mattered most, and then suffers a loss in straight sets as many predicted on his weakest surface.

Poor Rafa: just how on earth will move on from such a travesty?

Beats me.

-’ I understand the terrible fear that you probably feel, that 2011 is all over again, and you won’t be able to brag here all the time, the fear that the GOAT chase will end, and that Fed will stay forever on every list in front of Rafa, not to mention the heart of most of the fans. I understand. ‘:

Hello?

Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you the resident mind reader on Tennis X who knows of thoughts that you possess without you ever knowing that they even exist.

Tennis X’s very own Mystic Meg…… Mat4.

PS:

On this so called ‘GOAT chase’ you mention I have a simple question for you Mystic Mat:

Where does Novsk figure in this chase? Heck: does he even get a mention?

Correct me if i’m wrong but:

The last time the games authorities did a widely publicized roll call of the all time greats I saw RF there. He was number 1. I saw Rafa there. He was no.6.

Then I stopped looking by no.30 since: who cares after such a number right?

I did not see Novak in that top 30:

Did you Mystic Mat?

Or was that list ‘rigged’ too?

LMFAO!


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

How sad, how sad…

I was young when the WTF started (and there were two for a while, if I remember well), and I don’t clearly remember what was the primarly incentive to create it. There was something similar among the pros, before the open era. So I can’t really agree with you without checking about the initial purpose of this tournament.

But yes, as you wrote yourself, it is a very important tournament. So sad that Rafa never won it.


pigoonse Says:

Why not wait and see after Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, ect., retire before making proclamations and speeches about which one is the very best ever?! It is not so simple. Everyone has their favorite. Who really can force a Federer fan to see Nadal as the best or vice versa. Add in Djokovic at the end of his career to make it all more complicated or…

Djokovic, Murray and del Potro are just getting started, really! Well, Djokovic has 41 titles to Nadal’s 60, so another two 2011 type of banner years for Nole and he could be nipping at or passing Rafa. Another 2013 sort of year for Rafa and he will be at 70 titles and that is only 7 titles short of RF !! There is plenty of unkowns and unanswerable questions to get nervous about and attack each other over!

These things are bound to happen in tennis.

Some brains are not engaged in reality if they think the Barclay’s ATP World Tour Final has the prestige and importance of an Exhibition match!

ATP weights the event with more points than a 1000 series, but just less than a GS. The RR format, the time of year, and it being on indoor hc may not be the preferred surface of everyone but there you have it, it is indoor hard court.

A more convincing argument against WTF’s and the way they are now played, and weighted, (with more points than an ATP 1000), would be that at least the final needs to be played over 5 sets the way it once was.

Congrats to Novak Djokovic for defending the Tour Final Title with such panache!


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

Why do you never mention arguments? Why don’t you correct me if I am wrong? Why such rudeness?

About the beatdown: sorry, I just quoted “Behind the Baseline”. I am not even sure what this word means. It is something awfull? nasty? offensive? I beg your pardon, sir, if it is.

About Novak: I am very happy with his results, and while he won’t be the GOAT (Federer is), six slams are honorable, not to mention that he almost make the GS beating Rafa three times in a row in finals.

He had his share of losing… but that is sport, isn’t it? He doesn’t have to win every time. But, yes, fandome is a strange country, and deception is always deception, even when victory is against the odds.

I am not a mind reader, like you wrote, and I wrote “probably”. But your deception is so evident, your frustration so obvious, I couldn’t not sympathize with you and try to find a few words of consolation. It is not easy to watch your fav making DF on break points (believe me, I know about it, even on match points), especially since this never, never happens to Rafa. It is not easy to see your fav playing so well, fight so hard just to lose convincingly.

And also, I know that Novak’s celebrations are over the top, the shirt tearing, the roars after a break point… no, I just wanted to say that you shouldn’t be that disappointed, that you have to be prepared for that, especially since it looks as it is going to be the norm.


skeezer Says:

“I said it clearly: the basis of it’s creation is similar to that of an exhibition: and the exhibition here is to showcase the best 8 of a said season at it’s end.”
Comprehension?
Clearly you need more education about tennis and why/how the WTF is and what its for. You spend too much time making stuff up.


mat4 Says:

@skeezer:

It seems Brando has left. He seemed a bit disappointed. Do you think it is because Rafa lost?


Brando Says:

@Skeezer:

‘You spend too much time making stuff up.’:

Sorry old man but you have me confused with Mystic Mat with that accusation.

Education?

I agree, that is the need of the hour. For you.

Read what I have said, then go read on the purpose of this events creation.

Then ask yourself:

How much does a dictionary cost?

Find out. Buy one. Then look up the word ‘showcase’, ‘exhibition’ and then look at the basis of the creation of such a event in tennis and then say:

Aah, Old Skeezie- now I get what Brando was trying to spoon feed to me!

It’s not my fault you are not sharp on your Tennis history.

Anyhow: I have no interest in playing the role of Teacher to you.

Check it up yourself and you have my points regarding it already posted on here.

End of discussion from my side!


Bad Knee Rules Says:

Brando at his best, bullying people around. But this time he’s bit off more than he can chew.


Brando Says:

@Mystic Mat:

-’ So sad that Rafa never won it.’:

Why are you? Could you be more sadder than I for the fact that Nole has not won Olympic gold, RG?

Oh I doubt it.

- ‘Why do you never mention arguments?’:

To quote what a farmer once wisely said:

You could take a mule to a well to drink some water, but you cannot force it drink the water.

Figure that out, and you’ll see my tact with you.

-’Why don’t you correct me if I am wrong?’:

See above.

-’About the beatdown’:

No offense taken. It seems to be a popular term used in American journalism.

Why the need to see things in such terms? I have no idea!

-’not to mention that he almost make the GS beating Rafa three times in a row in finals.’:

Rafa beat Fed in 3 finals in a row at GS level. Scratch that: 4 in a row.

How many Rafa fans do you see harping on about that?

None. Why: It’s small potatoes in the big scheme of things.

But you being proud of such a thing: I don’t blame you for it.

It’s quite a compliment to Rafa: Beating legends who are in the upper tier of the game’s all time greats is always going to be something that the lower tier player’s celebrate.

Go ahead: be my guest and live in the past about it.

-’It is not easy to see your fav playing so well, fight so hard just to lose convincingly.’:

Actually you are right: Maybe that explains your absence from here post Novak’s thrashing in the Wimby final.

It must have taken quite a toll eh?

Good news: Rafa’s loss was easy to take and unlike you I am not away weeping about it.

Good times! :-)

-’especially since it looks as it is going to be the norm.’:

Thank you for that last bit.

It displays the crass arrogance in you overlooked. Probably because the ridiculousness of your rigging rubbish hides this additional ‘trait’ of yours.

Who knows what the future has in store for us?

Mystic Mat though seems to be sure of it.

Let’s see what unfolds. But i have a request:

IF anything other than what you proclaim as the norm occurs then I beg of you:

Please do not weasel away and not show up on this site.

I and others might think what one can ONLY do when a fan talks nonsense when his fav wins and then goes and hide’s when he gets his butt kicked:

That the said poster is nothing other than a glory supporting cheer leading Queen who does not have the stomach to face up those who he crassly rubs up the wrong way when his fav wins and talks lavish nonsense but when it’s bad times for his fav, then like a coward he runs a mile from those very same people.

Do not do that Mystic Mat.


Brando Says:

PS:

‘He seemed a bit disappointed. Do you think it is because Rafa lost?’:

Nah, I am still here.

But where were you when:

1. Nole lost in the Wimby final?

2. He lost in the USO final?

And oh:

When he decided to walk into the net at RG?

LOL: no need to answer. I think we all know the answer to that.


pigoonse Says:

In 1970, there were two competing tournaments at the end of the season – both meant to be a showcase for the top players. There were no points to be gained however, so initially there was that one similarity to the present type of exhibition match. But the tournament has evolved and likely will keep evolving.

In a year that ATP and GS event points are more evenly distributed ( someone named Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic does not win multiple slams )the idea that the number one ranking can possibly be decided by a strong performance at the end of the season is a good one. Adding more points would help motivate the ambitious player to reserve energy all the way through the year. Otherwise, you get players who don’t care and slack off when the fans want a race to the end. Well, I like it very much and think it needs some fine tuning with more points up for grabs and the final to be played as a best of 5 sets.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

I am so sorry, but I didn’t understand a single word of your post.

But then, since I think that you are a bit angry and don’t really mean what you write, I will try to answer your post in complete honesty, as a bona fide act from my part.

Yes, it was very difficult to read that Novak lost in the final. I didn’t even had the strength to find that match on youtube, while I rewatched yesterday’s victory twice. But what consoled me is that he lost against Murray, in the final, and not in the first round against Darcis, e.g.

I see you brag about Rafa beating a few times Fed in a row, but you forget to mention that he beat Wawrinka, e.g., 12 times in a row, which has nothing to do with the fact that he lost three consecutive slam finals against Novak, or seven consecutive finals against him too. Yes, I know, he still leads in the H2H, it is an excellent achievement, I would be proud of him, if he was my fav, although it is 10-8 for Novak in the last four years, and 7-4 out of clay, all very decent for Rafa.

“I and others might think…”: I don’t really care what you think, and, while you accused me to read mind, it seems that you are reading mind too.

But if I understand well, and I have to admit that sometimes it is quite difficult to understand you, although I really try, but it looks so much as nonsense, you seem to, how do say it, chickening me. Let’s say that I don’t care. I will post when I feel posting. Anyway, I do believe that is wiser to retire for a few days than to insult everybody and argue about trifles because you’re in a bad mood.

“How many Rafa fans do you see harping on about that?”

But you just are. That’s at least one.

Finally, I am so sorry if I have offended you. Like I said before, I understand, Rafa lost, you have to find somebody to vent your negative emotions, your anger, deception and deep sense of failure. It’s OK. I don’t mind. Nor will I in the future.

Best regards!


Brando Says:

@pigoonse: great post there. I see you used the term ‘showcase’, ‘exhibition’ in reference to the early formation or creation of what has now ended up as the present event. Like any smart individual would. I agree with you wholeheartedly on all points in both your posts. Your a welcome voice around here!


mat4 Says:

@pigoonse:

Yes, the other one was the WCT final. Played on indoor carpet until 1989.


Brando Says:

@Mat4: I am too tired to respond to your drivel. It’s night time here, time to hit the sack for me. As a act of charity I’ll help break down that nonsense you call a response in due time. Don’t go running away from here as I’d be disappointed.


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

Oh, I would really hate to disappoint you. I am afraid that it could be to much for your tender nerves.


skeezer Says:

Lol
Never seen a showcased exho award 1500 atp points.


pigoonse Says:

Thank you, Brando. I am a big fan of the Tour Final of tennis evolving into even more of a season tradition, prestigious tournament and prize. Also believe the tour final should be weighted with the same amount of points as a GS – the 5th GS – but played by the top players, giving the fans and season end more drama and add incentive for the top players who qualify to fight to the end.

And thanks for your response, Mat4. I like the last venue of the season being on indoor hc. Also think it should remain where it is on the ATP schedule after Paris and held in one place; the London O2 being a good spot for it.


Okiegal Says:

I think certain people on this site should act their age…..and not their IQ.


mat4 Says:

@pigoonse:

I mostly agree with you. We need a major tournament indoor on a fast surface, and while I think an African or South American city could be a great place to play, it is difficult to find a city who has the place and the public outside of Europe, or perhaps Asia.

London, yes, is a good spot for it, but London and Paris already have big tournaments (two). Why not Germany? Italy and especially Spain come to mind, with their long tennis tradition. I would exclude the US, where there is a slam and two masters already.

But it is all a matter of debate. Anyway, tennis has to regain part of his versatility: more carpet, more green clay, more grass.


Steve 27 Says:

Djokovic has a hole, a big hole, his lack of Roland Garros, this is bigger than the WTF. personally, I think this tournamnet is great but at the same time is not like in the 80s, or even the 90s, it has been devalued, although the ATP insist on creating an atmosphere of grandeur. since 2008 the final is best of 3 sets, and is not the same, again, but this tournament advocates believe otherwise
Also I would not change a major for 3 WTF, is a comparison that can not be done.


skeezer Says:

“Djokovic has a hole, a big hole, his lack of Roland Garros,”

A hole that will soon be closed. He’s young(Nole), has many quality years ahead. Currently he is the only top player that can beat Rafa on Clay, and was real close in last years FO. His record on Clay is getting better and better.
Rafa has had numerous attempts at WTF, and failed. Yes, its a big hole. Indoor record is a big hole. Every player has holes, in there game, style and surface. But looking at Feds variety and totality of Slams won doesn’t get enough credit.
The cool thing about Nole’s game is, his technical skills are sound for the variety of surfaces in todays game. If he can attain the mental part, like he did in 2011, he could go on another unmatched run of titles.


Steve 27 Says:

“One day, the next generation will catch us and will beat us and will be the best players,” said Nadal, who along with Murray, Federer and Djokovic have won 34 of the past 35 majors. “I don’t know if it will be next year. Hopefully not.”


skeezer Says:

^so true. It’s a changing landscape. So what is the benchmark as time moves on?

17.


pigoonse Says:

@ Mat4
Agree about tennis keeping versatility and variety in surfaces. It gives various styles of tennis a chance when the speed of the court, the flight of the ball, bounce, footwork needed, changes in skills, along with other variables.

About London and Paris – yes, they already have their great tennis tradition, GS’s, and Paris also its 1000 point indoor hc masters, but I think economically with its accessibility to Europe and the largest tennis fan base, London makes sense for the WTF. (Not meaning to leave out ideas for Germany or other European countries as possibilities – just not as familiar with them or I associate them with outdoor clay season more)


Steve 27 Says:

Unlike Federer, Djokovic will not have the luck of the Swiss. In the next 2 o 3 years, Rafa is the favorite enlarged to keep winning there as well that Del Potro has the level to beat on clay to plexincushiovic. You know, troll, how many participactions has the Serbian in RG? from 2005 to 2013. He has 9 appearances and just a miserable 1 final. If you think Federer advocate will win this great tournament easily, like so naively you think, think again. Only left him 3 more chances, to 29 years got Agassi, after that date will be unattainable. And Rafa will win in 2014, it only will be his last 2 chances. Oh and if you both proclamations that Nadal has failed to win the WTF, as with 6 appearances he has achieved more than the clown in RG. 2 Finals in 6, against 1 final in 9. Tell me who has failed more, troll?


skeezer Says:

Djokovic will not have the luck of the Swiss.

Really. Everyone. Read that. From a rafanatic.
So Fed was lucky, and nole will not have his luck. This, at its roots, is what it is all about. Eberyone not Rafa is lucky. LMAO.


Steve 27 Says:

barring injury or upset, the Grand Slams will be contested between Nadal & Djokovic (Murray does give Djokovic problems though) with wins between them from now on. Both players are not stubborn or “set in their ways” & will constantly make adaptions, tweaks, improvements, new tactics e.t.c to counter each other. Nadal does have a better forehand, better at the net (though Djokovic is working on this.), & plays the big points in Grand Slams better & more consistently between the two of them. Djokovic is a better returner (perhaps the best returner in history so far), can switch from defense to offense a little better & more fluidly, is a little better defensively than Nadal, has a better backhand & a more powerful serve. Both of them can match each other when it comes to speed, passing shots, angles, courage, heart, stamina, rallies & anticipation. I think though that Nadal is more consistent when it comes to intensity & focus on big points in Grand Slams between the two. Djokovic’s shots/strokes are more consistent & solid in producing impeccable length, is a better indoor court player, but Nadal has the better grass court movement, better clay court movement, much better windy conditions player, has far better overhead smashes, produces more topspin between the two. it’s a GREAT “see saw” rivalry in my view.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Djokovic will not have the luck of the Swiss”

Very true. Even after winning so much he is still ranked 2. He has to overcome real great players. Not mugs or ducks like Fed.


Slice Tennis Says:

Wow. Rafa lost of final of a tournament which he has no business in even participating and suddenly the haters are having field day.

If Rafa had sealed the YE NO.1 before the WTF he would have easily withdrawn.

LMAO….funny guys.


Slice Tennis Says:

Brando,
Some great posts. You have nailed it perfectly.
“Quit sucking up to certain Fed fans. It’s looks crass, tasteless and quite frankly speaking:”
Forget about him. he has to do this to survive here. Else the fed hooligans will turn against him as well.

As we have seen many times in the past he will go back to his hole once No2e gets beaten again.
So no need to give importance to him.


skeezer Says:

“Rafa lost of final of a tournament which he has no business in even participating ”
“Quit sucking up to certain Fed fans.”

Preach it Slice Dog! ROTFL. Better stick and pick to whats comfortable, no?

Warning! Warning! We are………………

^^Entering in Rafafanatic zone^^
Fed haters unite!

*use the scroll*
Now.


mat4 Says:

So, let’s see if I understand well:

- If you notice that Rafa has lost a match, you’re a Rafa hater;

- when you mention Federer, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you don’t accept to be bullied from this blog, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you mention Djokovic, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you mention Oliver Rocchus, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you don’t agree to be insulted, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you don’t post for a while, you’re a Rafa hater;

- if you start posting again, you’re a Rafa hater.

Must be that Rafa is not a very likeable person…


mat4 Says:

@Slice Tennis:

“So no need to give importance to him.”

Precisely!

Why should you care about my posts? I really don’t care about yours! Almost every time I see a name from the TT wild bunch I scroll down, searching for the nick of an old poster, but you bullied them all away from this blog.

What did he nail? That he was mocked and teased like an immature child that he is?

Poor Brando. He better go and beat his matter till she’s young. (FYI, because I am certain that you don’t have a clue about what I am writing, it is a surrealist proverb… but what do you know about literature… about anything?)


mat4 Says:

oops… his mother…


Giles Says:

@mat zero. You going AWOL for several months, I believe while your fave was getting thrashed by Rafa, was, to me, the best thing that happened to this forum. Alas, with your return you are continuing where you left off, ie, causing aggravation and trouble. Not good for your mental well being!


Margot Says:

@mat4
For the record, while u were away I was horribly bullied by a couple of posters calling themselves Nole “fans.” BTW Quite obvious they weren’t.
For the record: I have never made any secret of the fact I really like Nole. But I have NEVER been bullied by Rafa fans.
For the record: I have NEVER made a secret of the fact that while I consider Fed to be a magician on court, off court I’m not so keen. But some Fed fans just can’t accept you can separate the play from the player, and on many occasions I have been accused of being a “hater.”
Just making the point that the water isn’t quite as clear as you are implying.


mat4 Says:

@Giles:

Dear, dear Giles… You put that right: you believe… but it has nothing to do with the truth.

Alas, with my return… what? What am I continuing? what aggravation and trouble? Did I remember you that this is a TENNIS blog, not a RAFA FAN CLUB?

BTW: why don’t you read the commenting guidelines?

Finally, just to notice, my nick is mat4.


Bad Knee Rules Says:

^^^
As of lately this blog has been heavily contaminated by Rafa groupies. They even took the liberty to decide who is a good Novak fan and who is not, who is a good Roger fan and who is not. The only reason they are good to Andy’s fans is because they don’t see him as a treat to Rafa, but to Novak and Roger.


Thomas Says:

Nicely said mat4!


mat4 Says:

@Margot:

I was in a middle of a very ugly… how to put it? So, sometimes, although I try to be careful, I write something I don’t really think.

But the fact is that suddenly, a few months ago, a lot of new posters came here and bullied most of the old posters. I read that they mostly came from TT, so I call them the TT wild bunch.

It is OK to disagree, I guess. And sometimes, everybody of us has a bad moment. And we all like to brag a bit when our fav wins. But for years, it worked. We “cohabitated”, to use a French word. What is this, now? Did I start this argument with Brando? With Giles?


mat4 Says:

Then, you can’t always be… affirmative. It is not an ideal word, and like you said, we have to separate things, and sometimes to write things we don’t like.

I have very strong suspicions that most of the top 10 use doping. I think that Novak’s defence of Troicki is complete BS, I also have a lot of doubts about Rafa’s so-called knee problems, Murray’s bulking (he’s stronger than Rafa), Novak’s diet, Fed longevity… Why couldn’t we discuss it, in a civilized way, try to find explanations, share our experience (I lifted weights when I was young, e.g.). There is much to learn and to share.

I like to be proved wrong, learning something I didn’t know. I like to think, to exchange, I certainly don’t like to offend, insult, although I lost my temper at least twice here. Why can’t we write about controversial themes, and why can’t we disagree?


mat4 Says:

@Bad Knee Rules:

“The only reason they are good to Andy’s fans is because they don’t see him as a treat to Rafa, but to Novak and Roger.”

This could be about to change. Murray has improved a lot, and can beat anybody on any surface.


mat4 Says:

@Steve 27, 11:12 pm

I don’t agree with everything, but, in general, that’s it. Even at match point, you can’t be certain that the match is finished between those two, although Novak looked subdued in the fourth set of the USO.

But what is obvious is that that all top players, from Fed to Murray, have an exceptional “working intelligence”. Not only they are the best, but those are the players that have improved the most in the last 3, 4 years. It is not that obvious with Federer now, because he is a bit older and his back problems didn’t allow him to play and prepare the way he wanted this year, but last year, at 31, he was again ranked no 1 in the world, a feat in itself.

Just to mention: Rafa has improved his CC BH, Novak his net game, Murray his FH, Fed his BH (he was much better also at creating angles and he modified his patterns last year), etc.

And, while we perhaps don’t like the “new tennis”, his evolution dictated by different surfaces and new racquets, it is admirable that players with formed habits have adopted the fastest to changes.


mat4 Says:

… adapted…


Brando Says:

@Mat4:

Nice to see you still around.

And now to continue working on the punchbag…….

Look, i’ll take it easy on you from here forth.

I don’t enjoy any sense of satisfaction in breaking down and deprecating what you extol as ‘facts’.

I’ll end our exchange- at least from my side- by just stating a few points:

This is embarrassing. At least for me. Having a exchange with a man who is more than likely twice my age and yet shows a complete lack of maturity that I thought time would provide to one who has aged a fair bit is quite disheartening to see.

Especially when considering none of this would have occurred had it not been for your childish, antagonistic and unnecessary extolling of one player and put down of another player.

Swanning in here and talking trash when your fav wins is easy.

But sticking around when the chips are down for is not.

Hence your absence during such times.

So i’ll end with:

Stick around. Say what you want to say right now. But don’t weasel away when others who are putting up with your troll like nonsense right now will have their turn to say a few grand claims of their own when fortune favors their fav.


Giles Says:

@Brando. Excellent comments.


skeezer Says:

mat4,
Most excellant posts!
@brando,
If I am an old man then you must be an old Lady. You post like one.
#quitthebullying


Okiegal Says:

I will repeat…..You all need to act your age and not your IQ…..grow up…this back and forth he said she said is way out of hand. Why can’t we all agree to disagree? No one on this forum is gonna change another person’s mind about their fav I can not remember how many times I have read this same conversation….over and over. Let’s bury this horse……it has been beaten to death!! Will this sensible post get a comment….probably not…..but it was worth a try.


hawkeye Says:

My, my, how to live up to the academic tennis standard set by the T-X fedfan stalwarts here??? Is not possible, no? (mat4, really, you can do much better).

Congrats to Nole on another fantastic year.

Also, I will be more than happy if Rafa achieves even 80% of what he accomplished this year.

Rafa extends his dominance over fedfan and maintains his positive margin over Nole 4-4 on the year.

Any player (including Nole) would trade their 2013 results with Rafa. Tell me, who won the most hard court tournaments this year? The silence is deafening.

To be unmoderated on this site, you must either be a fedfan fan or kiss up to them.

Federazzi simply desperate. Such “academics” of the game. Hillarious!


mat4 Says:

@Brando:

Show some respect for your elders!

And all of this would not have happened if you were a bit more mature.

“Swanning in here and talking trash when your fav wins is easy. But sticking around when the chips are down for is not.”

I was on this site years before you came, when Novak didn’t win AT ALL! And while I am a Novak fan, I was a fan of many other interesting players, from Connors (especially him) to Safin and Federer.

So, first, your remark is pointless. Then, it is pointless also because arguing in an etherical world has nothing to do with “bravour”, “easy” and “hard”. The point is precisely to come when your favs win! The point is to enjoy and have fun on such a site!

And if I argue with you, if I tease you and make you look funny, it is not because I care about your opinion, but because your kind of behaviour has made all the posters, I enjoyed exchanging opinions and thoughts with, have left.


mat4 Says:

@skeezer:

I finally understood that it is a mere conflict between generations.


hawkeye Says:

Exhos and indoors excluded of course.

Seriously, indoor tennis is like diet soda or non-alcoholic beer.


hawkeye Says:

No, not generational. I was a big Connors fan and then Sampras fan.

Rafa detractors are 98% fedfan fans or ex-fedfans who abandoned ship (at least publicly). Too obvious. Truly bizarre dislike though. Fanatical to the extreme.


Okiegal Says:

I had wondered the average age of folks on this site…..just got my thought on this matter answered. If anyone can boast of following Connors….must be a senior citizen!! Love knowing that…cause I too followed him…..which makes me a senior also!! Quit watching after that era died down. Then, one day I was channel surfacing and came across the French Open and saw a young Spaniard win his first title there….I was hooked. I have watched him ever since. He became a challenge for the great Fed and tennis got exciting for me once again. I guess Fed is feeling his age a bit….but having said that, think he has looked in better form lately. What can I say about Novak?? Awesome…tennis, for me is back. Keep up the good work guys, being entertained by you greats is amazing. I LOVE TENNIS!!!!


hawkeye Says:

Very impressed with Nole. Made a big impression on me when he took out both Rafa in semis and fedfan in finals in Montreal in 2007.

He hit the ball hard and deep always close to the line. After 2008 AO the pressure weighed heavy on him for so long I started to think he wouldn’t reach higher than his No. 3 ranking but he is a true champion who is easy to appreciate in this golden era.

I was fortunate to see Nole in several matches live in Montreal in his greatest year to date in 2011. This year again we saw Nole play three matches in Montreal including Rafa’s win in the semis.


Daniel Says:

hawkeye

To answer your question @9:57, Djokovic won most HC titles: AO, Dubai, Beijing, Shangai, Paris, WTF (6)


hawkeye Says:

AO 2014 odds. Nole an ever so slight favourite. Sounds about right.

N.Djokovic – 2.56
R.Nadal – 3.15
A.Murray – 7.6
JM Del Potro – 18
R.Federer – 14.5

Also just a little reminder that Djokovic’s post USO run is nothing new, he did last year as well:

RT @juanjosetennis: “Last year, Djokovic lost all of 1 match between the 2012 US Open and 2013 Indian Wells (L to Querrey in Paris). 5 titles in that run.”

Nole is second to none post USO. Same as Fedfan used to be indoors.


Steve 27 Says:

Interesting odds, hawkeye, is undestandable the Djokovic is the favorite. not for nothing they call plexicunshiovic, he will be better than Agassi was in Rebound ace. But all we want the second part of the match of 2012. Rafa has unfinished businnes with the serbian.


hawkeye Says:

After initial odds are set, they simply are adjusted based on wagering.

Given he’s three time defending champ not including 2008, I agree that he should be the slight favourite. Rafa is pretty much his only threat.

Too early for Muzza to be a factor.


mat4 Says:

@Okiegal:

Yes, Connors was a great champion. I loved his BH. Nadal has his rage of winning, Djokovic the BH. I watched him the first time in the final of WB in 1976, if I remember well. He lost, though.


mat4 Says:

@Hawkeye:

It is not easy to find a place under the sun beside Federer and Nadal. Novak hasn’t got Fed’s talent, nor Rafa’s will to win. He had to rebuild himself to reach their level. And it was a long, difficult process.


mat4 Says:

@Hawkeye:

For my part, and I think I can write it for most of fedfans or nolefans I know here for years, yes, we hate Fed, or Rafa, or Novak, or Murray the day he defeats our fav and perhaps one day more. And we liked to tease each other, to start a flame war from time to time, and, sometimes, to discuss doping, cheating, draw fixing, or, on the bright side, improvements, technique, evolution of tennis.

I think it still can be done with mutual respect.


Slice Tennis Says:

Margot Says:
@mat4
For the record, while u were away I was horribly bullied by a couple of posters calling themselves Nole “fans.” BTW Quite obvious they weren’t.
For the record: I have never made any secret of the fact I really like Nole. But I have NEVER been bullied by Rafa fans.
For the record: I have NEVER made a secret of the fact that while I consider Fed to be a magician on court, off court I’m not so keen. But some Fed fans just can’t accept you can separate the play from the player, and on many occasions I have been accused of being a “hater.”
Just making the point that the water isn’t quite as clear as you are implying.

Margot,

Great post. Till now NO ONE has mentioned clearly which Rafa fan drove which Nole fan out of this site. But simply they are making generalized false allegations.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Preach it Slice Dog! ROTFL.”

What else do you know other than name calling. You lost it. Get well soon.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Must be that Rafa is not a very likeable person…”

I agree whole heartedly. Rafa is not a likeable person. He does not respect tennis history and the sentiments of people. How the hell he can beat the a$$ out of the God of tennis and the wonder kid of tennis. Coincidentally he has beaten those guys 22 times each…just 3 more to go to reach the all time world record of most spankings against one player.


skeezer Says:

“NO ONE has mentioned clearly which Rafa fan drove which Nole fan out of this site. But simply they are making generalized false allegations.”

I could name you 5 or 6 easily, been here long enough. But why go there? To start another argument? Pffft!!


James Says:

“I think it still can be done with mutual respect.”

I’m afraid, that’s what’s been missing of late, @mat4. I think it’s ok to disagree on certain things without insulting each other.

And it’s nice to see you posting again.


Slice Tennis Says:

“I could name you 5 or 6 easily, been here long enough. But why go there? To start another argument? Pffft!!”

I know you cannot get into a meaningful argument without name calling. The simple fact is specifically NO nole fan was driven out by any Rafa fan.


Steve 27 Says:

Rafa confirmed it that all we thought: Grand Slams matter most and Australia is his target now to dethrone the almost invincible, Djokovic
http://www.tennisearth.com/news/tennisNews/Rafael-Nadal-believes-he-can-better-Djokovic-at-Australian-Open-104931.htm


skeezer Says:

“The simple fact is specifically NO nole fan was driven out by any Rafa fan.”
That is a flat out Lie.
I know you cannot get into a meaningful argument with knowledge. How long you been here?
Apparently, not long enough.


Bad Knee Rules Says:

Let us start with Contador, Nina, Suzzete …


courbon Says:

****URGENT NEWS*****

Here is the latest transcript from Edward Snowden ( ex CIA analyst ) source. This is the 4-way ( conference call ) telephone conversation (from Basel, Monaco, Majorca and Scotland ):

Roger: Hi everybody.As we are talking like this first time, I just want to say that this has to be a completely between us.Top secret!OK?

Novak, Rafa, Murray: Yes…

Roger: In our interest is that new generation of players does not progress yet, so we can still have a Big Four show. Trophy’s, money…So, what shall we do to stop progress of young guns? Any suggestion?

Nadal:…hmmm.Well, there is no any good clay court player between those young ones.Right? So, maybe we can push ATP to make a whole season a clay season, so they can not win?

Ha,ha, ha,…laughter from other lines.

Rafa:Wait,wait!I will share clay trophy’s with you guys.I swear God!I ‘ll let Andy win new clay Wibledon and I let you win one RG Novak-I promise.

Novak: Jebi se!

Andy: Come down guys. Rafael, you know I like you a lot but I could not trust you with that. Sorry mate…

Rafael whispers something….puta madra*&%^ )

Novak: Ok.I have a brilliant idea.Why we all not pretend to sack our coaches?And when they become free agent all the young guys would hire them to train them.And that’s where trick is-we would still pay them and they will derail those guys.They will teach them all the stuff that is not useful,like one handed backhand for example..

Roger:Hey!Watch you..

Rafal:O,shut up Roger.Let him finish.

Novak:Basically my point is-they will slow them down for years and we can continue winning.What you think?

Roger: Well, I have to call Paul back but it’s not bad idea…

Rafa: Toni will never agree…

Roger: Be a man for once Rafael!

Rafa:Callate!

Andy: I just got Ivan! It’s not fair!

Novak: Guys, guys!! It’s the only way if we want to get more GS.We are getting old.Thats the only way…

***ok…ok…ok…*****

Novak: Ok-that’s a deal. I’ll call Vajda and you organize your guys. We will speak again at AO about further progress.

Roger:hm,hm,hm.. (clearing throat sound.. )

Novak: Yes, Roger?

Roger: Well, while we are all here talking honest and in a full secrecy, can I ask you guys to give me a number of your doctors.

Novak:?? Andy:?? Rafa:??

Roger: Come on, you know the doctors that give you “special medicine”.The one that makes you play 6 bloody hours and run like a Duracell rabbit! You know what I’m talking about!! ( Roger is getting upset…)

Rafael: I don’t take anything!

*****everybody laughs*****

Rafael: Ok, ok,,,I’ll give you a number.

Novak: I just do gluten diet, no dope!

******everybody laughs*******

Novak: ok, ok,…picke jedne…I’ll give you number of mine and Troicki’s doctor…

Andy:I know what you thinking all.I know I look a have a bigger bicep’s but it’s just that my mum organize too tight shirt for me and that’s the reason!.Seriously!!!

Novak;Cut the crap ginger boy and give him a number.

ANDY:oK,oK….

Roger: Thanks guys..I feel bit old and in a Switzerland every doctors is so damn honest-I could not get one!!
But, no word to anybody!Right?

Novak: Ok,ok… I have to go and stretch now…see you in January guys…

Rafael:Adios amigos!

Andy:Buy.

**********phones down*********

CONVERSATION archive:23334
CIA


Slice Tennis Says:

“Let us start with Contador, Nina, Suzzete …”

Which Rafa fan from TT drove them away ?
Be specific and prove it.


Nina Says:

@Slice Tennis… You, Gilles, Happychick, Brandon to name a few… Jane also was driven away but the ugly atmosphere here… also Zar.


Nina Says:

I mean Sar.


Bad Knee Rules Says:

———-
NO ONE has mentioned clearly which Rafa fan drove which Nole fan out of this site. But simply they are making generalized false allegations.
———-
The simple fact is specifically NO nole fan was driven out by any Rafa fan.
———-

I don’t see any “TT” here, do you? Only “Rafa fan”.


mat4 Says:

@Nina:

Hi, Nina. Glad to read you. Thought you left too.

@james:

Thanks, james. I had a very hard time in the last few months, but now I do my work mostly on my computer again, so I can follow this pages, read and post about tennis again.

I agree also that sometimes, I am a very unpleasant and difficult poster.

As a Novak fan, the last two years have been both great and disappointing: he just let his chance for glory slip through, although he had excellent results.

I believe that in his mind, he sees himself like Federer’s heir — not the one who will redefine every shot in the book like Fed did — he can’t really, but who will redefine game in general.

When Rafa’s style of play is idiosyncratic, something only Rafa will ever play [Rafa improves with concrete tasks in mind: how to avoid to be trapped on his BH side against Novak, e.g. (so, he improves his CC BH and works especially on his already excellent FH DTL)], Novak is the Federer for the masses — for those who don’t really have the touch, nor the power, a school thing: change the direction of the shots, mix the serve, parry defensive slice with net foray, displace your opponent on the FH before attacking the BH…

But he had a small window to win much more than he did in the last two years, an opportunity that is probably gone by now, to really join that elite club of players who had redefine tennis with their dominance. He just missed it.


Patson Says:

@mat4

All isn’t lost. Nole has around 3 prime years ahead of him. I still think he can win half of the next 12 majors. That’s not beyond the realm of possibilities.

I’m confident about Nole getting to 12 majors by the time he’s 29.


mat4 Says:

@Patson:

I am not that confident. I also see that rafans here dismiss too easily Murray’s chances, counting on a H2H three years old… A bit unwise. Then, Federer is certainly able to come back — isn’t Ferrer a proof that you can play better than EVER after thirty? And what if Del Po just wake up? He is already so close.

Nothing is given. 6 is great, already, with 3 WTFs to add to those slams, 40 tournaments overall. I am really happy with those results. Every win more is a bonus.

And… what’s missed is missed.


skeezer Says:

Mat4,
Thanks for the excellent post @ 1:36. Enjoyed the read. Finally someone with knowledge describng the skills and techniques of the players. Stuff like that rises above the banter, rants and schoolyard talk and the ones who have nothing else to post but another “vamos”.

“idiosyncratic”
Nice ;)


Daniel Says:

Mat4 I agree with you regarding Djoko’s chance. when this began I thought he would win 2 or 3 Slams this years. The Murray lost is comprehensible, but he should not e 1-2 versus Nadal in US Open final when he has all the superior records on HC. He just had to win that final specially after the RG close match. But of course, all credit to Nadal who did the NA swing and took him by surprise. This was suppose to be his year of glory winning at least 2 majors and not Nadal.
Will see, I think he will do it in 2014 because he played himself into form (Murray out) and we still can’t trust Nadal 100% to endure a whole season from Januray to November playing great, he had never done it before and in fact this last year he played everything on hard after Wimby. Maybe die to his early Wimby loss he had more in the tank for that summer assault. So I am assuming Nadal will need another minibreak, have some injury or just some let dwon in one of the important tourneys (this year he did not play AO and had a blip in Wimby). But a healthy Nadal for a whole season versus this Djoko would be a great battle to witness.


hawkeye Says:

Too bad the poster above has no such abilities of his own yet continues to participate in the schoolyard talk he professes to be above.

Ironically hilarious!!!

Oh, how could I forget. Vamos Rafa!


Slice Tennis Says:

Hawkeye,
This guy is just a cheer leader for Rafa haters.
He has nothing else to do here other than desperately encouraging other Rafa haters.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Nina Says:
@Slice Tennis… You, Gilles, Happychick, Brandon to name a few… Jane also was driven away but the ugly atmosphere here… also Zar.”

Jane was driven away by danny morris a Nole fan. And who is Zar and which Rafa fan drove him away ?


Slice Tennis Says:

“Bad Knee Rules Says:
Let us start with Contador, Nina, Suzzete …”

Nina is very much here mouthing al kinds of nonsense as usual. Even in the very same thread she made post calling rafa fans as rafa tards.
Thanks to the mods here for deleting that post.


Skeezer Says:

“Nina is very much here mouthing al kinds of nonsense as usual.”

That is Bully talk.


madmax Says:

Brando Says:
@Skeezer:

Re Mat4:

No comment.

Re WTF being a glorified exho:

Hey- it is!

Now i’m NOT one- nor have I ever done so- to knock down it’s importance.

It’s a clear fact: outside slams it’s the most prestigious title in all probability.

Davis Cup and recently Olympics (especially for the players) equal it in prestige/ desire to win for many.

But the question of is it a glorified exhibition?

Yes and No.

Yes:

The mere creation of it answers as to why it is so. It’s a showpiece event that was organised by the powers that be in order to showcase the best in a particular season in a finale that would be a spectacle that adds/ builds greater interest in the game.

It’s a select event. Invitation only. Held by the ATP to exhibit the best of a season plying their trade.

So in it’s mere creation alone one can see how it is actually a glorified exhibition.

This is not in dispute as it’s a blatant fact.

No:

When people dismiss it’s worth as being nothing other than a glorified exhibition then quite frankly speaking….. that’s idiocy.

It’s an important event, it has prestige, and most top players would desire a win there for sure.

Bottom line (yep it’s back):

When looking at it’s creation one can see it as such but to dismiss it’s value with such a put down is silly.

It’s a important tourny.

November 12th, 2013 at 4:13 pm

Hey Brando, madmax here.

Disappointed with you Brando – you can be extremeeeeeeeely fair and very eloquent as well as objective (Mat4, this is true, Brando can be).

Please don’t degrade the WTF. It is known (fact) as the fifth slam. It is the one tournament that attracts 1500 points, second after the 4 slams, that only the top 8 players can play in, then you have the added pressure of knowing that you will at least have to play at least 5 of those 8 players. They are all that good.

There is nothing of an exhibition about this tournament at all. To agree with the likes of the rafafanatics, (who should be well known to you by now, the TT homeless), is really to support the uneducated and you should not be associated with that crowd Brando.

It’s a great tournament to be a part of. ALL PLAYERS take it seriously and with some pride.


madmax Says:

I believe that as Rafa has not won it, (shock horror), his desperately hungry fans cannot accept this and so reduce it to a low status tournament to satisfy their sense of narcissism.

Silly really. It’s what players look towards as a goal at the end of the year, they fight hard to accumulate the points throughout the year.


madmax Says:

Slice tennis,

Since when have you been put off by a girl?

And seriously? where are the moderators with your bullying comments?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Nina @November 13th 5.07pm,just too let you know i actually had a fairly good raport with the posters you mentioned,this is a tennis forum with fans of different players,so if i did disagree i made sure i did it in a respectful manor although i admit im far from been perfect just like anyone else,however may i just say your hardly an angel yourself when it comes to name calling Fedtards/Rafatards etc,so it seems rather hypocritcal when you single out other posters of doing exactly the same thing your also guilty of.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

^And ive never posted on TT either,to add theres fans of each player that have felt bullied away too,so i dont think its exclusive to any fan group.^


madmax Says:

Slice Tennis Says:
Margot Says:
@mat4
For the record, while u were away I was horribly bullied by a couple of posters calling themselves Nole “fans.” BTW Quite obvious they weren’t.
For the record: I have never made any secret of the fact I really like Nole. But I have NEVER been bullied by Rafa fans.
For the record: I have NEVER made a secret of the fact that while I consider Fed to be a magician on court, off court I’m not so keen. But some Fed fans just can’t accept you can separate the play from the player, and on many occasions I have been accused of being a “hater.”
Just making the point that the water isn’t quite as clear as you are implying.

Margot,

Great post. Till now NO ONE has mentioned clearly which Rafa fan drove which Nole fan out of this site. But simply they are making generalized false allegations.

November 13th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

Margot, you were one of the biggest bullies on TT and you know it. You portray to be nicer than nice here and so far hav got away with it. You gave a statement on TT telling the whole world who you were, there is your evidence.

Brando, let’s get back to the proper talk and the commentating (!) that you are so very good at. You deserve a better reputationto live up to.

Anna, please. Since how long have you been here?


mat4 Says:

@madmax:

Hi. Just wanted to say a few words about Brando:

The dispute started when I mentioned draw fixing. Brando reacted, then I started trolling, and it had no end. Since he posts here already a long time, I didn’t expect he would be the one to react, especially since my views about draw fixing should be known to him — that it is not only about Rafa, but also about Novak in MC, Rome and the AO, Fed in Paris, etc.

E.g., I remember that I thought, reading comments at the USO, that Fed and Rafa never played there, that we would certainly have a Fedal at the following AO, and that was just the way it happened. Then, the year Soderling was the 4th seed at the AO, I had no doubt that Murray, the 5th seed, will land in his quarter — it was all too convenient, and we already discussed about it.

So, I know Brando can be a fair and interesting poster. He just lost his temper in this thread, and I regret the whole dispute ever happened.


mat4 Says:

Margot and the DA came here about the same time. And you are quite right about them.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Just wondering when was it right for a bully to bully another bully?i mean a bully is a bully,is a bully,whichever way you cut it,and i dont believe a female doing it to a male makes a difference either,just saying.


mat4 Says:

^ Alison:

It is a very interesting question: is it right to bully a bully? ;-) or to troll a bully?

Anyway, you’re right: it is not exclusive to any fan group. Even some nice posters from time to time lose their temper — me included (I mean: I can lose my temper, I didn’t assert that I am a nice poster).

Finally, although we can’t make easy generalizations, everybody knows who are the bullies, and they were named a few times already.


madmax Says:

Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:
Just wondering when was it right for a bully to bully another bully?i mean a bully is a bully,is a bully,whichever way you cut it,and i dont believe a female doing it to a male makes a difference either,just saying.

November 17th, 2013 at 7:10 am

Alison, you recently called me a bully because you felt I was singling you out – when actually I was responding initially to your post where you said something about the OBE. And you just kept changing your opinion, all the time to fit in with everyone. I called you up on it. That’s not being a bully, you were addressing me.

Because someone has a different opinion to you (me)does not make them a bully.

But because you fool people with your nicey nicey comments, you portray yourself not as one, yet your comment (indirectly aimed at me), was a snide remark. I get you Alison.

Margot posted on TT under a different name,made it known who she was over there, just when TT went down. She was awful. Poisonous language, very different to her upper class voice here.

I disagee with the inane, boring, unsupported and unjustified comments from many of the rafanatics here, who come over to start a fight. You may not be one of them but you associate yourself with them by saying nothing about them, because you want to make air friends. Go ahead.

You are someone who disguises what she really feels, just by making happ go lucky comments. I see through you.

Mat4, I hear you. I like this Mat4 – you write comments that are mostly insightful and help me to understand tennis more. That’s the Mat4 for me.


mat4 Says:

@madmax:

In truth, I believe that here a lot of posters know much more about tennis than I do. Just to mention a few (I did it a few times in the past): TFS76 (he posts again), then TL (very insightful), Skeezer (when he is not provoked or joking), Grendel is an exquisite writer, and there were a lot of others.

Watching Novak against Berdych: Novak seems very tired, so he shortens the points — never seen him play like this.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Madmax i dont disguise myself i say what i mean and i mean what i say,what i said on that thread was Murray meeting the queen was a nice story,although i agreed in that i was glad it was not a proper knighthood,yet you kept coming after me about it by making it such an issue,with the your trying to be a nice person right?and your not a HHB whatever that is?that to me was bullying,Margot bullying on TT does not make it right for Danny Morris to make her life a misery here or vice versa,and for what its worth i have defended Roger,Novak,Delpo many times when fellow fans have took cheap pot shots at them,but it would be impossible to do it all the time,do you defend the other players all the time when your fellow Fed fans do the same to Rafa and the other players? and anyway i didnt direct anything at you it was an overall generalisation to whats been said on this thread,so i dont get why you thought it was aimed at you?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Mat4 thankyou i think you get what im trying to say,to be honest its my belief that i am actually out of my depth and have no buisness posting on this forum,tennis was never my favorite sport anyway,just one of them.


madmax Says:

Alison, let’s leave it shall we.

Answer to your statement “kept coming after you”, how about you kept replying to my replying to u?

Would you rather me ignore you? If you address something to me, then I am going to answer you. When I mentioned the history of the OBE you switched back and forth, and seemed to want to appease everyone. Why?

And yes, FYI I do. I support Skeezer here because he is pretty knowledgeable about tennis.

And I like what he says

You described yourself here as a HHB (hard headed b*tch) which I thought was a bit unfair on you. So why do you decide to “get down with the kids” by saying some unkind things about yourself? You talk in riddles.

Just be who you are. Who gives a damn anyway?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Madmax yeah fair enough,lets leave it at that,theres no hard feelings on my part,i think ive probably got my wires crossed anyway,i dont have a problem with you or any other poster,im here for one reason only and thats to talk tennis,i dont want to indulge in silly spats,im not clever or knowledgeable about the game like yourself or some people,my tennis knowledge is very basic anyway,i dont really get the Skeezer angle but for what its worth i like his posts,and he has said some kind things to me on many occasions,and as i said about the OBE it was a nice story but i was glad it was not a knighthood,anyway ill leave it at that,and ill stick to talking tennis.


hawkeye Says:

Jeez what a soap opera. I was told this was a site for high level tennis academia analysis and discussion.


courbon Says:

@ hawkeye: You want tennis analysis? Ok, when Nadal punches the ball at 135 degree from right side of the court , the ball spin about 9500RPM.With the wind at 102mph comes from the left, it slightly tilts the ball to the left. This ball now is turning at about 9400RPM but it make it difficult to…… ………….
( TO BE CONTINUED )


skeezer Says:

“I was told this was a site for high level tennis academia analysis and discussion.”
Who yold ya? Another fellow TT outcast? If you’re used to that kind of discussion, then ya, it’s gotta be a shock.
Quality Posters here, when they decide to post, have exceptional tennis knowledge and actually have meaningful interesting posts that are a contribution to the tennis fan and the game.
Who wants to read the continual Vamos! Sh!t.

Keep reading, maybe you’ll learn how to play and appreciate Tennis, rather than diacuss the latest Armani poster that says Vamos! Rafa!


Margot Says:

@dementedmax
I have never bullied anyone in my life, here or on TT. I am sick of your baseless accusations. I am reporting you to the moderator. Unfortunately for you I remember your activities on TT all too well as: maxi/malteeser/fleur and goodness knows who else
@mat4
I’ve been on here for years and years. even remember Ben being “Super Safin” or similar.


mat4 Says:

@Margot:

OK, my fault, I probably made a mistake confounding names. I apologize.

And I think this story has to be put ad acta.

If we agree here to scroll down when unmature posts are written, or to ask for clarifications when a misunderstanding is possible, if we make an effort to respect others, I think this blog can be a place we all enjoy again.


mat4 Says:

@Margot:

Sensational Safin, and I was not so long ago.


Margot Says:

@mat4
Peace :) I am very easy going, but if I am bitten, I will bite back. Nor will I put up with false accusations and BTW I hate hypocrites too.
Enough! Incredibly boring for other posters. Won’t respond again and will leave the moderators to take action, or not………


hawkeye Says:

@courbon, no I just want posters not to be so two-faced about it, that’s all. ;)

I could never get away with continued posts and language made by one of the long time posters here.

But then my fave isn’t the former GOAT either.

Hilarious!


hawkeye Says:

“meaningful interesting posts”

translate: fed good, nadal bad

Too funny!


mat4 Says:

@hawkeye:

““meaningful interesting posts”

translate: fed good, nadal bad”

It is not the truth. The one poster who really couldn’t stand Rafa was Dave, and he doesn’t post any more. And although he could be very unpleasant, he posted stats, made arguments, etc. I had once a very unpleasant argument with him that amply degenerated, defending Rafa as an all time great.

But you give nothing, nor you, nor Giles, nor Qeen and the likes.

By disrespecting the opponents of you fav, you disrespect him too. What’s the worth of his wins against Fed if Fed is not the GTPSF, or the GOAT?

And why don’t you calibrate those wins — we all know that younger players almost always have a positive H2H against players from the older generation. Just look at Connors H2H against McEnroe or Lendl, although no one can assert that they were overall better players. The way to do this is twofold: just look, for one, at the tournaments that they both played. How many were won by Federer? How many by Nadal?

And then, since nothing is given: how will you feel if Rafa’s domination vanishes once again, the way it has two years ago? If he is injured again?

So, if you want others to respect your favourite player, you should start respecting theirs. That’s what existed here for a long time.


hawkeye Says:

“By disrespecting the opponents of you fav, you disrespect him too.”

I couldn’t agree more BUT that dear sir is a two-way street as I’m sure you know but I can’t name names or my posts gets yanked.

“we all know that younger players almost always have a positive H2H against players from the older generation.”

First of all, I don’t necessarily accept this as a fact. Your select examples are anecdotal evidence and I could easily list examples of the exact opposite. e.g. Fed vs Berdych,Roddick vs Nole, Agassi vs Roddick. It simply has to do with the number of times the two players met when one player had the age advantage vs the other. It can, and does, work either way.

“The way to do this is twofold: just look, for one, at the tournaments that they both played. How many were won by Federer? How many by Nadal?”

Well, you can only do that specific calibration once both careers are complete. Rafa turned pro in 2001 at the age of 15 when Fed was 20. Therefore, Fed had an age advantage over Rafa for about eight years!!! Since that time, Rafa has had the age advantage for the last four years. Again, two way street, no?

I suppose one way to do this today would be to drop the first four years of Rafa’s career, i.e., 2005 onwards and I suspect that Rafa would come out on top of that calibration.

“So, if you want others to respect your favourite player, you should start respecting theirs. That’s what existed here for a long time.”

No, any time I looked on here as a lurker from time to time it was generally a very pro-Fed, anti-Rafa biased site.

How will I feel if Rafa’s domination vanishes? Not sure what you’re going for there. It won’t change his results to date.


hawkeye Says:

Also won’t change the opinions of so many tennis greats past and present.


hawkeye Says:

Prior to TT closing there were few Rafans on T-X, and the few that were here had to tread lightly whilst the many real tennis fans with the fascinating insights (read fedfan fans) could say just about anything they pleased.

So, yes good tennis discussion should be more than just “Fed good, Rafa bad” or, vice versa, but please don’t try to profess that’s the norm rather than the exception here – past or present.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Dave was a very clever man and knowledgeable man,Grendel is very similar,however there was always some Federer type emotional bias with Daves posts,Grendel was more neutral likewise Michael and Tennis Vagabond,in that if they hadnt said it nobody would actually realise who they were fans of.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Id like to add Perfect Fan to that too.


hawkeye Says:

TXHC, I’ve never seen Michael’s “confession” but I would put him down as a fedfan fan, no?


hawkeye Says:

This will probably never see the light of day but here goes:

Perfect example. On any given day, long-time T-X poster Ben Pronin (fedfan fan whether he admits it or not) can say Rafa is a fraud and dopes any time he pleases.

Yet when I responded by asking did anyone notice how the veins on Federer’s serving forearm really popped out during the WTF, my post was deleted.

Comical.


madmax Says:

hawkeye Says:
Jeez what a soap opera. I was told this was a site for high level tennis academia analysis and discussion.

November 17th, 2013 at 8:13 pm

hawkeye, enough already. It is, so what do you want to bring to the table?

Margot, or should I say Deuce? Enough with your baseless accusations, to save yourself from your own moniker of ‘deuce’. You were reported to the moderator a long time ago. I never made any secret of the fact that I was also Maxi. Was very open about it. You drove many posters away, Duro? remember him?

Stop making up the other name crap, to blame it on someone else because it suits you.

So tell me something I don’t know and stop spreading lies. You were good at that on TT, this is an entirely different site.

Moderator: Stop the spreading of lies from Margot.


mat4 Says:

@alison:

The best two stylists here were Grendel and TennisLover. It was always a pleasure to read their posts.

Dave was… unpleasant, when you dared to mention Rafa.

But my favourite poster was jane, of course. A Nole and Andy fan, always moderated, objective and nice. She posts from time to time on the Changeover, but I miss her here.

I also miss WogBoy, who was a nice Nole fan too. Contador was a Rafa fan, if I remember well, and is missed too.


Slice Tennis Says:

Mat4,

“So, if you want others to respect your favourite player, you should start respecting theirs. That’s what existed here for a long time.”

I am following this site since 2007. Can you please when such a respect existed here ?

As far as I know this site was much more peaceful before because of the huge number of fed fans and the attacks were always directed towards with very little resistance from Rafa fans. (Much like ruan’s blog now)

But nowadays due to increase in the number of Rafa fans they have to stomach as much as they sprout.

If you have a different opinion, please tell when was this site respectful to players and posters.


Slice Tennis Says:

Margot and Hippy Chick,
You both are two of fairest and nicest posters here. Hold your head high and continue posting. If someone has a problem with you it says more about them and not you.


mat4 Says:

@ST:

“they have to stomach as much as they sprout”: thanks for the idiom, although I had to check its meaning.

Then:

Of course there always were frictions, disputes… And yes, you do have a point. But you could be certain that nobody will go after you deliberately if you tried to be fair in your posts.

In years I had just two very unpleasant dispute here: with Dave, of course, when I asserted that Rafa was the greatest clay court player in the Open era, and with the DA, who accused me to be a Murray hater and Rafa hater. It was in a bad mood so I made the mistake to reply.

But what now: jane wasn’t a Fedfan, but she left; and she even wasn’t driven away by Rafa fans, if I understood well; Conty was a Rafa fan, Duro and WB Nole fans… Even Humble Rafa stopped posting.

It is not a question of Rafa or Fed or Novak fans. There are just some new posters who mostly spend their time here trolling and insulting everyone.


mat4 Says:

BTW, on the other thread, alison, who is a long time Rafa fan has just been attacked by another “rafan”. I use the quotes here because I don’t think that this poster is a fan of anybody.


hawkeye Says:

mat4 says:

“But you could be certain that nobody will go after you deliberately if you tried to be fair in your posts.”

Please mat4, show me an example where I have gone after someone who tried to be fair in their posts.


mat4 Says:

Sorry, Hawkeye, I missed a few of your posts, since this thread is a bit old.

Of course some of my arguments are a two way street: they are meant to be. The answer is not always clear cut [Reread the post: it wasn't about the arguments, but the posters. Here too, I agree.]

The examples I picked are good ones: Connors, JMac and Lendl won about the same number of slams, but Connors was about seven years older. They also played numerous times.

About the calibration: yes, I agree with you that we should take in account their results since circa 2005 to 2011, when they both were at their top. And I also agree that Rafa’s career isn’t over yet, so his status can still change.

About doping: I don’t see why we couldn’t write about it. I already did it a few times, exchanging posts with Alison and Ben. There were here accusations and suspicions about Rafa, Novak, Fed, Murray, Berdych, ARod… Why not? I am a regular reader of THASP (tennis has a steroid problem), and although I don’t agree most of the time, I find that there are many valuable arguments to be written.

So, yes, it is easy to have a meaningful discussion, with a little bit of mutual respect and good will.


Hawkeye Says:

Not what I said. Rafa was not at his peak until 2008. Fed was not at his peak in 2010. I was saying to compare from 2005-2013 inclusive which covers equal years that each had the age difference vs the other.

Re the player examples. Sure you’re examples are no different than mine. Doesn’t prove anything as there are comparable examples on each side of the age equation.

For the rest, I agree mostly with what you said.

However 95% of the doping innuendo is regarding Rafa on TX. Hardly balanced. Besides, ARod is fair game because of so much evidence against him and MLB is trying to suspend him. However, personally, I think it’s unfair to claim specific players are doping without proof. That said, there’s nothing wrong with general suspicions but singling out and naming players is pretty bad in my opinion.


skeezer Says:

Fed won 3 Slams without a Coach or Uncle holding his hand. In his non prime years he still bagged Slams. Ahhh…so many ways to skew the stats in your favor. Where there is no chance of variance is in the records that were made. Take 17 as an example. How do u twist that? Can’t.


holdserve Says:

Fed got 17 of which 12 were in weak era. If he had a rival of equal caliber, he would have had 6 between 2003 and 2007. So only 11 total.
Rafa, Nole and Muzza each are equal to Fed and also had competition from Fed till 2010.Imagine if Fed had such competition from 2003. He would have won maybe just 6.
Not only was he lucky to enjoy 5 or 6 prime years without rivals of his caliber, by the time they came along schedules and draws were being rigged in his favor putting them at a serious disadvantage. Apart from the mental handicap of taking on a guy who because he had no rivals seemed God like.
17 is only a relative figure. If Fed and Nole were not there, Rafa would have 18 by now.


Margot Says:

@Slice Tennis
Thank you.


mat4 Says:

The weak era argument is a fallacy. If you are consequent with it, you have to wait 2011/2012, when Murray and Djokovic matured, to say it is a strong era, since until then Federer and Nadal won about the slams there were. And it makes Rafa win 10 of 13 slams in a weak era.

Then, why not 2005-2011? Rafa was ranked no2 since 2005, Roger was no1 in 2012 (Rafa didn’t play). They were both at their peak.

In 2008, perhaps Rafa was at his best, but also, maybe Roger was declining a bit. So, you always can look at the facts using different angles.

And one thing not to forget about the weak era argument too: Roger Federer was the one that elevated all the standards, and made Rafa, Novak and Andy improve so much. AND THIS IS A KEY FACT, THE FACT THAT FEDERER BY HIS EXCELLENCE DEFINED THE LEVEL TO BE NO 1. Without him, Rafa would still play like in 2005, Novak and Andy like in 2007. He made them play better, improve and adopt a philosophy of work which has never been seen before.

Finally, Rafa is not without reason the prime suspect for doping among the top four, although there are good arguments for all of them. But Rafa is the only one where you really can’t find counterarguments, while there are a lot in the cases of the other three.


Giles Says:

I would really like the ITF to ban the CVAC. ” It is not in the spirit of the sport” they say but still continue to keep it legal. They seriously need to have a rethink and ban it completely. Still. it probably comes down to $$$$$ in the end whereby the POD inventors would lose out if it was banned. I would not rule out a conspiracy between the ITF and CVAC.
The question that arises is how would this affect Joker’s performance without the POD? Consecutive marathon matches doesn’t affect him at all. And this is all down to his use of the POD.


mat4 Says:

@Giles:

Who says Novak still uses the CVAC? Who knows if he is the only one to use it? Almost all of them uses hypo- and hyper- baric chambers, but Novak was the only one to admit that he tried something like the CVAC a few times. Rafa has his own “pure air” thingy (which is a hyperbaric chamber), and his effect are proven, which is still not the case with the CVAC. Hewitt has one, too, Stosur another, just to mention the players I know without any doubt.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Mat4 and Slice Tennis thankyou.


mat4 Says:

Not to mention that you can modify the level of oxygen in any hypo- or hyper- baric chamber anyway, the humidity level, and often the temperature.

Is it against the spirit of the sport? It is a very difficult question.


mat4 Says:

Hi, alison. BTW, I still can’t adapt to the TXHC moniker.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Mat4/Giles different players use different types of the CVAC pod thingy,its not illegal but im just wondering if its in the spirit of the sport John Mcenroe alluded to it,its possible it gives players an unfair advantage.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Mat4 i live with the notion that any one of the could be doping,if it were Rafa i would be dissapointed but not entirely surprised as its the world we live in unfortunatly,however i wouldnt be any less dissapointed if it were any one of the others,as it reflects badly on the sport.
You could suspect them all for different reasons,Rafas powers of recovery,Rogers ability to sustain such a level for all those years,Novak coming out of nowhere to become unbeatable,Andy was he really having back surgery or is he serving a silent ban,was Delpo really injured all that time or serving a silent ban et etc????


mat4 Says:

@alison:

No, it was not the question of the silent ban, but other things, also very obvious. But you summed it up well.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Mat4 Conty was a Nole fan,Conty says she respects Rafa but doesnt care for him as a player,she and Brando had a run in earlier this year,as she was rooting for Gulbis in one of his matches against Rafa,around Monte Carlo or Rome time i believe?


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Hawkeye Michaels a Roger and Novak fan,but is always very respectful of Rafa,Andy,Delpo and says he always looks forward to their matches with the same enthusiasm,and predicted Rafa would do well on his return,hes respectfull of other posters opinions too.


hawkeye Says:

@skeezer, no, fedfan only used the Swiss DC captain giving little in return only playing to keep DC in World Group but not when it counted.

Poor Stan the Patriot Man. If Czechs won DC two years running with just two guys, fedfan has no excuse. Selfish, no?


holdserve Says:

mat4, your post disputing the weak era does you no credit. You forget fed and Rafa are not in the same age group but Rafa, Nole and Andy are.

Also rivalry i.e. strong era is judged by whether there were at least 2 players who were invincible i.e. who could consistently beat the field and be beaten only by another invincible.
If we call these guys “invincibles”, there was only one invincible between 2003 and 2007 and there were 4 between 2008 and 2012.


skeezer Says:

“Also rivalry i.e. strong era is judged by whether there were at least 2 players ”
Who says this?

“…used the Swiss DC captain giving little in return only playing to keep DC in World Group but not when it counted.”
Uh? What? Study Feds wiki vamos head.


volley Says:

“The weak era argument is a fallacy.”

i disagree. between 2003-2007 he claimed slams by beating players ranked 48th, 86th, 7th, 54th, 10th, 9th in finals. that’s 6 slams. since 2007 (with only a few exceptions) slam winners have had to beat one of the other top 4.


skeezer Says:

In 2003 Hewitt ( multiple Slam winner ) and Agassi ( multiple Slam winner ) were seeded 1 & 2 respectfully, as an example. That was Feds FIRST GS title. Rafa didn’t play at 03/04 Wimby. Not Feds fault.
There were quality players with quality records. Just because some of them didn’t get to a final is not Feds fault. Sh!t happens like Rafa vs Sod @ FO. Did Sod ever win a Slam?
You get your data from extrapolating what YOU want to present your case, it does not make it ……so. Furthermore, this isn’t the first post you posted about this, why continue to banter?


madmax Says:

hawkeye Says:
@skeezer, no, fedfan only used the Swiss DC captain giving little in return only playing to keep DC in World Group but not when it counted.

Poor Stan the Patriot Man. If Czechs won DC two years running with just two guys, fedfan has no excuse. Selfish, no?

November 19th, 2013 at 9:02 am

hawkeye,

it is important that an athlete is able to be selfish if they want to be the best and they have to take and consider their coaches advice on when to play and if this will affect their overall performance (if it clashes with tournaments close by). Not only that, do you know how many times fed has played davis cup for his country and his win/loss record?

No?

Let me tell you?

Overall, Berdych has a 45-13 win-loss record in Davis Cup matches, including singles and doubles, and that is better than Federer’s 43-15.

Djokovic is 28-9, Rafael Nadal 24-5 and Andy Murray 19-6.

Stepanek is 30-15 in all Davis Cup matches, but more importantly, he has delivered when it matters most: in the tense, deciding fifth rubber, in the recent davis cup with Serbia and Czech republic.

So, seriously, please don’t tell any Fed fan that he doesn’t care about Davis cup or his country.

Present the facts hawkeye, and then we can talk.


madmax Says:

Stepanek is 30-15 in all Davis Cup matches, has played fewer matches overall than fed, is just a little older than fed, clearly he is not seen as someone who “deserts” his country because it has not suited him to play.

Sometimes you have to pick and choose.


madmax Says:

Alison,

First and foremost, just to correct you, Conty was first and foremost a fed fan.


hawkeye Says:

Over the last nine years, fedfan has only played in one non play-off DC tie.

http://www.daviscup.com/en/players/player/profile.aspx?playerid=10019424

No wonder his record is so good!

Same as 17, no?


mat4 Says:

@holdserve:

To be in the same age group can be meaningful, but doesn’t have to be.

The key here is twofold: one, Fed, winning everything there was, made it look like a weak era; since 2005, he had one rival — Rafael Nadal — and judging by the results, where they won everything there was, we could assert this period as weak too. A two men race.

Since I, like you, know quite well which players played in that period, I am quite certain that the era wasn’t weak at all. Roddick, Hewitt, Safin were all great champions.

Also, the ranking of the opponent Fed beat in the final is a fallacy: the year he won against Gonzo in the AO final, Gonzo beat Rafa in the semi. The fact that different opponents, even lower ranked players, were in finals, can be understood that it wasn’t a weak, but an exceptionally strong era.

It was also a time of evolution and changes in technology, and this can distort also our assessment of this period. The continuity was lost between 2000 and 2002, when everybody adopted new strings, and when the homogenization of court surfaces started.

So, we should think a bit before repeating the same and same false arguments all over again.


mat4 Says:

Just to add a few examples: in 2008, Djokovic and Tsonga played the final of the AO. Was it a weak tournament? No, they eliminated the no 1 and 2 seeds in the semi, and the final was played at a very high level.

When you compare Tsonga at his best with Stich, Ivanisevic, Wilander, even with a wooden racquet he is a more complete player, and the weakness of his BH is only a relative weakness. But here I could be wrong, I admit. So, why not listen to Fabrice Santoro, who has played against all the players in the top in the last 20 years: his opinion is that the average level of the top players has arisen through the years. (That interview was in French, on Eurosport, and it was a long one; the link has disappeared since then, but I believe that it can still be found somewhere on the net.)

Finally… although the court surfaces are slower, all the shots — the serve excepted — are much faster. A player like Djokovic — I don’t want to mention Soderling or Del Potro — hits his FH at speeds between 120 and 140 km/h, pointing at 185 km/h (on clay, in Rome a few years ago, against Soderling). It is meat and potatoes today. The game is twice faster than it was fifteen years ago, and the angles produced were unimaginable in 1995.


volley Says:

“Sh!t happens like Rafa vs Sod @ FO.”

yes. that is what’s known as an ‘exception’ as i stated in post. the plain fact of the matter is between 2003 and 2007 federer faced a multitude of players. almost every slam final since (with some exceptions) has featured one of the top 4 ranked players. extremely dominant and consistent players compared to their counterparts from 03-07. the last comparable period which matches the post-2007 era is the 80′s.

“can be understood that it wasn’t a weak, but an exceptionally strong era”

that is the beauty of having a mind, it interprets data in different ways. some might understand it as strong era, others might see it as being indicative of a weak one.

“in 2008, Djokovic and Tsonga played the final of the AO”

again, that is one of the exceptions as described in my original post which places emphasis on the years 2003-07.

i stand by my assertion. although you make some interesting points i’m not persuaded to think otherwise. we will have to agree to disagree.


mat4 Says:

@volley:

Unfortunately, although my job allows me to follow the blog and answer posts, I don’t have enough time for a real statistic job: analyse the draws in that period, see who defeated the top players, take in account injuries, etc.

Perhaps someone here could do it?

Two years ago I made a little base of results and calculated the ELO rating of players (similar to chess) in 2011, and there was a similar job done on a greater scale somewhere on the net (found it, it’s here:

http://tennisplanet.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/chess-elo-rating-system-adapted-to-men%E2%80%99s-tennis-from-rafafan-thanks/

ELO ratings show the relative domination of a player over the field. Here are the top players from the list (made in 2010):

1 Roger,Federer,SUI 2007.7 2890.2
2 John,McEnroe,USA 1985.3 2835.6
3 Ivan,Lendl,USA 1990.1 2814.3
4 Rafael,Nadal,ESP 2009.4 2799.6
5 Bjorn,Borg,SWE 1980.5 2771.4
6 Jimmy,Connors,USA 1980.1 2665.1
7 Novak,Djokovic,SRB 2009.9 2619.4
8 Pete,Sampras,USA 1997.2 2609.6
9 Andy,Murray,GBR 2010.1 2584.2
10 Rod,Laver,AUS 1975.2 2567.8
11 Boris,Becker,GER 1991.1 2558.3
12 Andy,Roddick,USA 2009.6 2540.9
13 Stefan,Edberg,SWE 1991.8 2533.0
14 Andre,Agassi,USA 1995.7 2500.5
15 Lleyton,Hewitt,AUS 2005.2 2499.0
16 Guillermo,Vilas,ARG 1979.0 2498.1
17 Nikolay,Davydenko,RUS 2010.1 2485.8
18 Mats,Wilander,SWE 1988.8 2467.7
19 Michael,Chang,USA 1997.3 2416.9
20 Juan_Martin,Del_Potro,ARG 2009.7 2390.9


mat4 Says:

The ELO rating takes also in account the strength of the opponents, just to notice.


Slice Tennis Says:

“7 Novak,Djokovic,SRB 2009.9 2619.4
8 Pete,Sampras,USA 1997.2 2609.6
9 Andy,Murray,GBR 2010.1 2584.2
10 Rod,Laver,AUS 1975.2 2567.8″

LMAO. Thanks for sharing this joke.
Are you indirectly taking a dig at Fed fans for cooking up such ratings just to put Fed at No.1 ?


Slice Tennis Says:

Hawkeye,

Fantastic post at 1:59pm.


mat4 Says:

Here is the rating I calculating myself for 2011:

1 Novak Djokovic: 3014 127 149 81 93.8% 2541
2 Roger Federer: 2823 112 100 81 84.0% 2535
3 Rafael Nadal: 2791 101 92 88 81.8% 2530
4 Andy Murray: 2753 109 99 76 81.6% 2494
5 Robin Soderling:2706 141 126 43 79.1% 2476
6 David Ferrer: 2680 92 86 83 75.9% 2481
7 Jo-Wil. Tsonga: 2641 86 81 86 72.1% 2476
8 Tomas Berdych: 2633 87 83 79 69.6% 2489
9 J. M. Del Potro:2619 99 92 69 73.9% 2438
10 Mardy Fish: 2598 92 88 66 65.2% 2489

The results are higher because I took in account only ATP tournaments, and only over 1 year.


mat4 Says:

@Slice Tennis:

Just go to the site and look at the moniker of the poster…


Slice Tennis Says:

“Present the facts hawkeye, and then we can talk.”

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-11-11/14178.php#comment-505568

LOL

“Sometimes you have to pick and choose.”

Fed is definitely the master of picking and choosing easy play offs.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Just go to the site and look at the moniker of the poster…”

Hope you remember the couple of guys here with the names “rafa is best” and “fed is goat”
LOL


mat4 Says:

Then, showing your ignorance about what ELO ratings are… what can I say?


Slice Tennis Says:

“In 2003 Hewitt ( multiple Slam winner ) and Agassi ( multiple Slam winner ) were seeded 1 & 2 respectfully, as an example.”

Well done and thank you. This is a perfect example to show that the era was weak. A 35 yr old who couldnt even make the second week of the slam was seeded 2. The world number 1 for 80 weeks was booted out in the first when he was just 22. A joke era.


Slice Tennis Says:

“showing your ignorance”

Yes, its time to attack the poster.


Slice Tennis Says:

2004-2007 was not called as weak era just because 1 guy won everything. It was because of the competition. One guy can still win everything in a strong era. For example Nole won almost everything in 2011, but he had to overcome a super strong and consistent opponent.


mat4 Says:

@Slice Tennis:

It is just a reply to your previous post, where you accused me of bad faith, which is worse, in my opinion.

There are multiple ways to calculate the relative success and strength of a player, and ELO is a good one, with an excellent predictive value.

It takes in account the strength of the opponents, although it doesn’t give bonuses for winning a tournament.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Since I, like you, know quite well which players played in that period, I am quite certain that the era wasn’t weak at all. Roddick, Hewitt, Safin were all great champions.”

Your “great champions” made a grand total of 7 slams finals combined during “that” era.

Andy Murray who is considered to be the weakest among the top 4 has already made 7 slam finals.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Here is the rating I calculating myself for 2011:
2 Roger Federer: 2823 112 100 81 84.0% 2535
3 Rafael Nadal: 2791 101 92 88 81.8% 2530″

“and ELO is a good one, with an excellent predictive value”

Do you really believe these statements ?


mat4 Says:

My impression was that 1985-2000 was a weak era. Edberg won 6 slams without a FH; in RG, you had another winner every year; you didn’t need a BH to win Wimbledon, where, BTW, second tier players won a few titles. Even a boy 17 years old won that tournament. It was a very weak era…

And, it is just that: an impression. Just like the impression about 2003-2007, cause by the fact that one man won everything.

But take Roddick in 1995: would he have won Wimby a few times? We will never know, but I am certain that he was better than Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Stich, Cash…


mat4 Says:

“Slice Tennis Says:

“Here is the rating I calculating myself for 2011:
2 Roger Federer: 2823 112 100 81 84.0% 2535
3 Rafael Nadal: 2791 101 92 88 81.8% 2530″

“and ELO is a good one, with an excellent predictive value”

Do you really believe these statements ?”

————————————–

Yes, of course, and if you knew how ELO is calculated, you would understand why Federer is above Nadal on this list! So, go to Wikipedia, and read a bit! Don’t waste my time.


Slice Tennis Says:

“cause by the fact that one man won everything.”

Not true.
http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-11-11/14178.php#comment-505595


Slice Tennis Says:

“Yes, of course, and if you knew how ELO is calculated, you would understand why Federer is above Nadal on this list! So, go to Wikipedia, and read a bit! Don’t waste my time.”

I don’t need to waste my time to understand any rating system which puts Federer above Rafa for the year 2011.
#Joke.


mat4 Says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

And you don’t calculate ELO by hand, BTW…


mat4 Says:

Why do I have to repeat myself?

“It takes in account the strength of the opponents, although it doesn’t give bonuses for winning a tournament.”


mat4 Says:

“Andy Murray who is considered to be the weakest among the top 4 has already made 7 slam finals.”

By whom? Since 2011, he has won 2 slams, the Ol. and has won his last matches against Rafa (he even bagelled him), Novak (in three sets), and Roger.


Slice Tennis Says:

“By whom?”

Ok what to do think about him then ?

“Since 2011, he has won 2 slams, the Ol. and has won his last matches against Rafa (he even bagelled him), Novak (in three sets), and Roger.”

Nothing else but strong era.


mat4 Says:

“Nothing else but strong era.”

Yes, I agree that since 2011, it is one of the strongest era that ever was.


Slice Tennis Says:

Regarding ELO, I think I should concede that it is the GOAT of rating systems. Else you wont leave me. LOL.


Slice Tennis Says:

“Yes, I agree that since 2011, it is one of the strongest era that ever was.”

Till 2007, it was the opposite. How else would you explain a one dimensional teenager ranked no.2 for 160 odd consecutive weeks and also winning 3 slams beating the world no.1 in his prime years.
Joke era !!


Slice Tennis Says:

Rafa’s last 4 FOs were much more hard earned compared to his first three, even though he is a much better player with a much better all round game and in his prime.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

Madmax November 19th 12.59pm fair enough sorry.


volley Says:

“Here are the top players from the list (made in 2010)”

that list seems to support my stance. most of the players in the top 20 were dominant in the 80′s or from 2007 to the present.

“Edberg won 6 slams without a FH”

mats wilander won 7 slams without a single weapon. mcenroe didn’t have an especially strong FH either. i am not sure what point you are trying to make here.


skeezer Says:

@4:31 post
Since when are Slam finals more inportant than Slam titles?
#biggerjoke

The vamos heads keep wanting to turn a spoon into a fork.


volley Says:

^ you clearly misunderstood the point being made in the @4:31 post. the point isn’t that finals are more important. read again and without emotion.


mat4 Says:

@volley:

I completely agree with you about Wilander (I wanted to include him too in this “impression”).

Please read the second paragraph. The point is that subjective impressions are just that, and nothing more.

BTW: JMac had an excellent FH, although probably not exceptional. He played with a wooden racquet, and our perception today about the quality of a shot is very different from what it was at the time.

We all mention Lendl’s change of attitude, that allowed him to win slam, but we forget that there was also a shift in material that helped his game. It was clear especially in the USO final he won against Mecir, who still played with a wooden racquet.


mat4 Says:

Then, about the rating list.

There are about 10 players that played in 2003-2007 (Rafa not included) among the top 40, and that’s a lot.

I think that there is a certain inflation because top players mainly play major tournaments, which wasn’t the case until 1990. It is a known fact from chess, where more players and more elite tournaments inflated the ratings since 1980. The correction should probably be of about 40-50 points.


mat4 Says:

The same author improved his rating list here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=244754

It is a very interesting thread, and gives more consistent results for players of different generations, which is always a problem.


skeezer Says:

Volley
You continually want to harp on Weak era, I mean what is that? So did Mike Tyson, winning the Heavyweight title of the world at 20, an all time record, doesn’t deserve his status cause he fought supposedly in a weak era? You cannot judge an all time great by who was in there era. They still have to prove they are better, stiil have to show up to play, and win. You just speculate, and records don’t live in;

“IF’S”.


holdserve Says:

skeezer so according to you Nadal in 2003-2004 should have reached finals and his not reaching finals was not Fed’s fault. Aren’t you overlooking the fact that Nadal was just 17 or 18?
Even though he was freakishly good on clay enabling him to win RG before he was of full strength or had fully developed his game, his progress on other surfaces was normal for a genius. He was still developing his game and was too young. He did not have enough experience.
His winning RG was a marvel. His not winning the other slams when he was underage was normal.
But your reasoning is strange. You make fun of Rafa being no. 2 when he was aged below 22.It actually proves it was a weak era that no one of Fed’s age could be consistent top 5 let alone no. 2. So a young inexperienced guy could be no. 2.
Look at the situation now. The new gen are not hoping to be top 5 till the current super geniuses are past their prime! Earlier only one super genius was occupying the top slot. All top 5 slots below him were up for grabs because there was nobody else better than the field i.e. Fed had no rivals. A weak era.


skeezer Says:

My point is is its not about age, era, etc. its about who you have drawn to play. You play, and no matter who it is you win. That is the way the game rules are. You have to win your way through a draw, not a player. As an example, if Rafa can’t beat a “Sod” in an early rd, is it Feds fault?

@holdserve
Don’t get me wrong, Rafa was awesome. He is awesome. But he was also #2 after 22, c’mon. You also then go on to try to prove that because Rafa was not in his prime when Fed won his slams it becomes a weak era. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?


hawkeye Says:

Comparing two six-year periods of time:

2003-2007: eight unseeded players and seven players seeded outside top eight made the finals of a major.

2008-2013: one unseeded player and two players seeded outside top eight made the finals of a major.

There are 24 majors over six years.

Therefore, in the first period, 62.5% of players in the finals were outside the Top 8. 33% were unseeded.

In the second period, only 12.5% of players in the finals were outside the Top 8. Just 4% were unseeded.


Tennis X Hippy Chic Says:

JMO And i suppose its not quite the same thing,but Murray and Delpo had it way harder when they won their 1st GS than Roger,Rafa and Novak,Murray faced a 5 time GS winner when he won his 1st GS,and Delpo a 15 time GS winner when he won his 1st GS,by contrast Roger won his 1st GS against Philipousis,Rafa faced Puerta,and Novak Tsonga,all of which had never won a GS before,so to me that shows what a strong era this is and how difficult it is for players to actually make that breakthrough,even for two fantastic players like Murray and Delpo,my two cents.


hawkeye Says:

^^^2002-2007 (correction)


volley Says:

@ hawkeye

very illuminating stats. they reinforce my original point.


hawkeye Says:

1st time major winners outside Top 4:

Delpo (6)USO 2009
Gaudio (-) FO, 2004
Costa (-) FO, 2002
Johansson (16), AO, 2002
Ivanišević (WC), Wimby, 2001
Safin (6), USO, 2000

Other than Delpo, hasn’t been achieved in almost 10 years!!!

Nole and Murray were seeded 3rd and Rafa 4th when they won their 1st major.

Makes you wonder who and when it will happen again.

More interestingly, who will be the next player to win their first major???

In the Top 20, I gotta think Raonic which is a bit of a scary thought because he’s a long ways away.

After that it’s Jerzy or Baby Fed I guess.

Delpo was really a true surprise at No. 6. Nole and Muzz were not unexpected.

It’s been some time that there wasn’t a player who you just thought was on the cusp of winning one.


volley Says:

the great martina navratilova makes an interesting observation in an interview about sexism.

“Well, Roger (Federer) didn’t have much competition for a while either but they weren’t bemoaning that fact, they were never saying there’s no depth in men’s tennis.”

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/11/navratilova-sexism-still-tennis-easier-federer-be-loved-serena/49849/


Hawkeye Says:

Preach it @volley. LMAO. Hilarious.

Top story: Andy Murray Reportedly Engaged To Girlfriend Kim Sears, Makes Coaching Changes
  • Recent Comments
Rankings
ATP - Nov 24 WTA - Nov 24
1 Novak Djokovic1 Serena Williams
2 Roger Federer2 Maria Sharapova
3 Rafael Nadal3 Simona Halep
4 Stan Wawrinka4 Petra Kvitova
5 Kei Nishikori5 Ana Ivanovic
6 Andy Murray6 Agnieszka Radwanska
7 Tomas Berdych7 Eugenie Bouchard
8 Milos Raonic8 Caroline Wozniacki
9 Marin Cilic9 Angelique Kerber
10 David Ferrer10 Dominika Cibulkova
More: Tennis T-Shirts | Tennis Shop | Live Tennis Scores | Headlines

Copyright © 2003-2014 Tennis-X.com. All rights reserved.
This website is an independently operated source of news and information and is not affiliated with any professional organizations.