Roger Federer Increases ATP Points Lead, Murray 10th, Djokovic Now 18th
by Tom Gainey | March 20th, 2017, 12:52 pm
  • 152 Comments

After adding 1,000 points from a fifth Indian Wells title yesterday, Roger Federer increased his 2017 ATP Race lead to 1,410 points over Rafael Nadal. So Federer will be the top 2017 player heading into the clay season regardless of what happens in Miami.

Federer 3,045 is actually more points than his rivals Nadal, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic have won this year (2,950).

Murray, who lost second round at Indian Wells and has withdrawn from Miami, is now 10th. Djokovic is down to 18th, and he too will miss Miami.

Stan Wawrinka also moved up to No. 3 and semifinalist Pablo Carreno Busta is now 7th.

In the 52-week rankings, Andy Murray still has a lock on the top spot and with Djokovic skipping Miami, it looks like he will hold that going into the French Open.

Meanwhile, Federer, who began the year No. 16, is already up to No. 6 with only Stuttgart, Halle, Wimbledon semifinals and Monte Carlo quarters of importance to defend the rest of the season (1,170 pts).

ATP Race Rankings (March 20, 2017)
1 Roger Federer 3045
2 Rafael Nadal 1635
3 Stan Wawrinka 1410
4 Grigor Dimitrov 1355
5 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 1255
6 Dominic Thiem 1130
7 Pablo Carreno Busta 975
8 David Goffin 965
9 Jack Sock 950
10 Andy Murray 840
11 Kei Nishikori 660
12 Sam Querrey 645
13 Roberto Bautista Agut 610
14 Milos Raonic 600
15 Albert Ramos-Vinolas 565
16 Nick Kyrgios 495
17 Pablo Cuevas 485
18 Novak Djokovic 475
19 Fernando Verdasco 465
20 Tomas Berdych 450


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152 Comments for Roger Federer Increases ATP Points Lead, Murray 10th, Djokovic Now 18th

ellet Says:

And he is in the trunk.


Petah Says:

Can the yearly ATP Race points just be included in the Rankings tab please?


LUCY Says:

This is interesting but not that relevant when you consider that Murray is still number 1 in the overall rankings and about 9,000 points ahead of Federer! Fed has never been that great on the clay and things will even-out over the rest of the year.
It’s only March for heaven’s sake and all the top players have a long way to go before people get too excited about this….!


pitchaboy Says:

For a guy who is not that great on clay he has won FO once and been to finals four times to be beaten by Rafa.


pitchaboy Says:

The guys who can stop the Fed Express in current form at the FO are Rafa, Stan and Novak in that order.


Markus Says:

It’s hard not to get excited when Federer at 35 gets to win another major and follow it up with a Masters…especially when just to be able to see him play some decent games is enough to make me feel happy. Add to that the couple of times he was able to beat him biggest nemesis. So excuse me for getting all excited with these bonuses, gravy and all these accoutrements. As I have said previously, just the first one, his AO, is so huge it is enough to last the whole year, maybe even beyond.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

Markus, I agree. I am still staying pessimistic about his form holding up for long, but that AO final certainly gave me more than I ever expected from him again.

Miami draw is out. Fed is in Wawrinka’s half. Rafa is in Nishikori’s. Fed gets JMDP 3rd round (DAMN!!), Berdych or Thiem in QF’s, then Stan/A Zverev/ Kyrgios in semis.

Rafa has a 4th round rematch with Dmitrov, then Raonic or Sock in QF, then Nishikori. Kei has easiest quarter, only Cilic from top 10.


Berghain Says:

Getting greedy now and wishing he won dubai also.

Fed is the oldest person to ever win a masters 1000 I think.


Angel Says:

Berghain you are correct! Federer is the oldest person to ever win a Masters 1000. The previous record was from Andre Agassi in Cincinati 2004, he was 34.


Colin Says:

Let’s see if I’ve got this right – Fed fans are all excited because he is ahead of Andy in the race to the WTF.

All well and good BUT the seedings at the Slams (except Wimbledon) are not based on players’ positions in that race, are they? Andy may not win the FO, but he’ll be seeded No 1 at Roland Garros, won’t he? If he does reasonably well there, as he could if fit, he will then be seeded No 1 at Wimbledon.

Now tell me I’m talking nonsense!


Giles Says:

Hope he wins a Masters 1000 at 45 even. that’ll make his fans hysterical! Lol


Daniel Says:

The thing with Federer now is hat he is playing freely and nothing is better for a veteran tennis player than winning. As long as he is injured free he can keep up for quite a well with the revamps he made.

Off course, every now and than he will have a Donsky match and lose a few to the other Top players (Murray, Djoko, Nadal, Wawa, maybe DelPo) and an occasional one of to power hitters.

But he just won 2 biggest tunes f the year, beating 6 top 10 players and 2 over Nadal. It just can’t get any bigger than that, not at least till Wimbledon.


pitchaboy Says:

Andy will be No. 1 until he is not; that day may come soon the way he is getting knocked out in early rounds or withdrawing from tournaments. RF just needs to be in top 4 by Wimbledon to avoid meeting top people in early rounds. And that is entirely likely. Cant see Nishikori and Raonic hanging on for long. In fact there is a great possibility that the top 5 will be the big 4 and Stan by that time.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

Colin, of course you’re correct. We are celebrating the great start to the year that Federer has had, which is represented by the race. In terms of the 52 year ranking, Fed was at #17 in January and now #6, which is another reason to celebrate. One can celebrate one’s favourite player even when they are not ranked #1- something I think a Murray fan would appreciate.


J-Kath Says:

Colin:

Yes – the seedings at Wimbledon are calculated partly on who won the previous year.


LUCY Says:

Of course Fed fans will be excited about this latest run of form – but realistically there may well be a downturn at some point, particularly on the clay. When I said he wasn’t that great on clay – I meant in comparison to his other achievements he’s not so good on clay as the other surfaces. This is not disrespectful; just a statement of fact. Roger’s always been better on grass and hard courts.
His performance has been remarkable but it’s still only March folks!


LUCY Says:

@pitchaboy: Andy is still way ahead of Djoko in the rankings as things stand at the moment and will be around 4,000 points ahead when the points drop-off after Miami. He did get knocked out early in Ozz and recently in Indian Wells but he did win Dubai – and even Fed, Nadal, Djoko and Stan also went out early in other tournaments. It’s all swings and roundabouts at the moment while they all find their feet. Even if Murray does badly in the next couple of months, 4,000+ points ahead of Djoko will take a lot of making-up as Nole has a load of points to defend himself. On that basis alone I would say Murray has a reasonable chance of staying at number one until June….


Colleen Clancy Says:

Murray will be number one till june, it’s not possible for Novak to make up the points before the french.


Markus Says:

So tell me Lucy, when is it the right time to get excited? December?


Daniel Says:

Guys, Murray can only lose #1 ranking to me after USO. were he defends 5 straight titles, 4500 pts. Unless someone takes RG and Wimby and 2 more masters. And even so will depend a lt on Murray’s result.

Federer is just the in form player now and we are curious to see how long this phase will last and if it’s a permanent thing.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

Boy, you can hardly get a word in here with all the well-wishing Novak fans giving Fed respect for his age-defying, record-breaking comeback.


Colleen Clancy Says:

Novak could get the number 1 back after Wimby. Andy has to defend almost 6000 points between now and then.


skeezer Says:

“Boy, you can hardly get a word in here with all the well-wishing Novak fans ….”
ROTFL!


skeezer Says:

“Of course Fed fans will be excited about this latest run of form ”
Of course there is excitement for Fed. He just won his 18th and a Master @35! What he does from here on out? This fan says “no expectations”, the pressure and the demand is on the top guys still in their prime. Its all gravy baby. If he goes downhill from here it was still a great, unexpected year and the ultimate cherry on the the Sundae. My gut tells me its not over, but I don’t see how he will get by any back to back 5 setters in a Slam, unless he avoids them.


Wog Boy Says:

Boy, you could hardly get a word in here last year with all the well-wishing Roger fans giving Nole respect for winning NCYGS and completing the best year in the history of ATP.


skeezer Says:

And I want to thank you again for your hearty congrats to Fed & his fans.


Wog Boy Says:

Thanks God for basketball and WTA final, otherwise was the most dull IW lately.


Tennis Lover Says:

Wog Boy, Novak djokovic has been the most dull champion out of all elite tennis great. I still can’t get it how come his fan base are so disdainful, atrocious and almost lunatic. My suggestion try to support a player who plays beautiful brand of tennis not the ugliest one


lakie Says:

The true GOAT has put Novak in his place!


Tennis Lover Says:

Dear Rafans, There are three pivotal reasons why Rafa’s decline seems to me permanent and he is unlikely to win another Grand Slam and his recent failure against Federer:

1. His serve has tactically and powerwise become weak
2. His court positioning at a times has proved to be confusing, hurried and flustered and it affected his timing on the forehand and eventually made that wing more error prone which did not happen in his prime.
3. Most importantly, he has lost his valuable yet insane retrieving skill of the past by some quite margin, his retrieving skill had alone won him countless matches against Federer, Djokovic and other major opponents in Grand slams. We all know, game wise he had this enviable stylistic advantage over Federer which helped him to defeat Federer many times. But his stylistic advantage over Federer without his insane retrieving skill is just like Usain Bolt’s ferocious sprinting in one leg which is not enough to pass the ultimate hurdle.

Champion of Nadal’s Calibre deserve a fitting swan song at his fortress in Roland Garros but taking too much strain on the body to win the matches in his early career has made his body functioning half of its full power. People once predicted that it will happen and it is happening now. It won’t stop unless he and his team finds way to counter this problem knowing the limitations he has in his game now. Otherwise I do not see him winning any grand slam again and possibly ending his career at the end of 2018.


lakie Says:

TV, What a dismal forecast for Rafa and Rafans! I agree with your analysis.


Tennis Lover Says:

Lakie, why Fed was able to unleash so many backhand winners in that Australian open final? there were half of those backhand winners which prime Nadal would have retrieved and forced Federer to play one more directing his forehand further into Federer’s Backhand corner. Fed has played amazing with his backhand at first 4 sets in Australian open final 2009, even though Fed was wrecking backhand at corners Nadal was there to retrieve it and direct the ball further into Federer’s backhand corner and forcing Fed to play one more aggressive backhand which Fed could not sustain doing. This was completely absent in Australian open final 2015. It went to fifth set basically because Fed was a little bit more error prone in his forehand side and Nadal played a surprisingly rejuvenated match at the 2nd, 4th and first half of fifth set. But, I say it clearly without his insane retrieving skill his stylistic advantage over Federer will come down to a touching distance which means any match from now on will give Federer an equal opportunity to play a good match and win against Nadal.Previously, Nadal has frustrated all his major opponents again and again with insanely unbelievable retrieving skill. Watch his clay match from 2005- 2008, it was all about ferocious forehand combined with beastly retrieving ability. In those time of his career, it was impossible to get the ball past him which is why Fed could not win many matches against him at that time. His insane retrieving skill and forehand won him Australian open 2009 semi final against Verdasco and Final against Federer. The only exception was 2010 wimbledon and 2010 US open where all his elements of game has clicked so he won those two tournament with comparative ease barring one or two tough matches. Again, he always was great and unmatched retriever in the clay and most feared opponent so I won’t talk about his RG trophy from 2010-2014. But, I guess you have seen 2013 US open final between him and Djokovic it was Rafa’s supernatural retrieving skill along with his Forehand DTL that won him US open 2013.


lakie Says:

TL, I agree with you completely.Your analysis is in essentials the same as TVs. Because of loss of foot speed, Rafa no longer has the “insane ” or “supernatural” retrieving skills nor the lethal forehand. Unless he figures out something to make up for this decline, he is not going to win another slam.


Amit Says:

Novak has the most mechanical playing style of all players.. He never excited me.. He is super-efficient, but has a dullest playing style.. However, Novak is quite over-rated.. But Fed is going to take care of that..


Van Persie Says:

“Novak has the most mechanical playing style of all players”… during 2011 Nole was quite loved by Fed fans. Many of them told, Novak’s playing style is more interesting than Rafa’s….after Wimby 2014 and 2015 and US Open 2015, he somehow changed…got boring.

“But Fed is going to take care of that..” yep, let’s see if he will, Amit ;)


Van Persie Says:

“The true GOAT has put Novak in his place!”

Novak is at the same place..nothing changed for him with 12 GS and 4 in a row.


Van Persie Says:

^^ P.S. And as far as I know: Istomin and Kyrgios beat him at his last matches, unless you consider them GOAT’s.


Margot Says:

Lol VP. I wonder why that was….;)


Margot Says:

VP that response was for you at 3.10


Tennis Lover Says:

Sorry no offence Novak is the most dull champion out there in the tennis. His one bright spot in his murkily overachieving career is 2011. That is the only year when he was able to muster up mysterious force to dispatch Nadal and Federer with conviction. With that exception Novak has always been an utterly bizarre pandemonium in tennis. Meanwhile, his buddy Murray defines the ugliest and filthiest tennis I ever saw. Nadal in spite of being one dimensional, repetitive and chronic mannered player in the court usually happens to possess belligerent yet post modern quaint brand of tennis which made him earn glorious legacy in the clay and fierce competitor by heart. While, Federer is the man who stands for tennis itself. He does not only play the game but also glamourize, glorify, sanctify, deify and dignify the game of Tennis. The other two tennis great who I think can be remotely compared with Federer is Rod Laver and Pete Sampras since they also tried to play same brand of tennis which Federer revolutized and established in the tennis


Tennis Lover Says:

Sorry no offence Novak is the most dull champion out there in the tennis. His one bright spot in his murkily overachieving career is 2011. That is the only year when he was able to muster up mysterious force to dispatch Nadal and Federer with conviction. With that exception Novak has always been an utterly bizarre pandemonium in tennis. Meanwhile, his buddy Murray defines the ugliest and filthiest tennis I ever saw. Nadal in spite of being one dimensional, repetitive and chronic mannered player in the court usually happens to possess belligerent yet post modern quaint brand of tennis which made him earn glorious legacy in the clay and fierce competitor by heart. While, Federer is the man who stands for tennis itself. He does not only play the game but also glamourize, glorify, sanctify, deify and dignify the game of Tennis. The other two tennis great who I think can be remotely compared with Federer is Rod Laver and Pete Sampras since they also tried to play same brand of tennis which Federer revolutionized and symphonized with his magic Wilson wand in the game of tennis.


DC Says:

The problem with players like Nole, MUrray is that playing tennis is a mechanical process for them, and not about doing what you want to do and play the shots you want to play.
They play to enjoy the win, not to enjoy the game. They will keep playing safe shots till the other person makes and error or is out of position and then hit another safe shot to win the point.
No wonder they cant keep themselves motivated for long. Who wants to play boring tennis day in and day out, year after year after year.


Van Persie Says:

^^ It is only a matter of taste. I prefer to see long rallys in tennis matches, I like to see Nole sliding on tennis court and returning balls from impossible angles. I also liked much more to watch Rafa than Roger…

The problem with Nole is, that he also enjoys skiing (and has also other passions). I am sure that Nole is not bored with tennis, he is tired to make perhaps all these sacrifices for tennis….did read somewhere, that Roger loves to ski, but he avoids it, because he’s afraid he might get injured.


Van Persie Says:

But I agree that Federer is perhaps much more into tennis than Rafa, Andy or Nole…he also sacrificed much for for the tennis life than the other 3.


Margot Says:

Whether someone finds a particular style of tennis “boring” or not, is just a matter of opinion. But why, in giving it, do you need to diss other players?
The matches I most enjoy are those between S & V players and defensive players. That’s when a real game of tennis chess takes place.


Van Persie Says:

Agree Margot,

And to be fair the retrieving worked very well for Rafa against Roger, we all know the H2H. Andy had also a positive H2H against him during his first years in ATP….and Nole did also good during his career.
My personal opinion is that Roger in his prime was never an “long race horse” like the other 3.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

Margot, I agree. Fed fans should know better than to paint Novak as purely defensive, mechanical player. Although I found the Novak/Rafa battles of 2011 as exciting as watching paint dry, Novak has shown in the big matches vs Fed, when he HAS to play shot-making tennis, he can do it. He was no defensive robot against Fed at Wimbledon, for example. I am one of those who has, generally, found him boring, but when he decides to go for his shots, as he often has against Fed, and as he has in some of his recent Murray matches, he can be spectacular.


Van Persie Says:

TV,

I get you. Was probably also uninteresting for you, because your fave was not in those finals, from 2011…If you would ask me, AO Final from 2012 was much more dramatic. 2 amazing players at theyr best.
Was not “emotionally involved” with this AO final, so I was not so “excited” as you were.


Miles Says:

It’s not just Federer fans!


Van Persie Says:

Agree Miles,

I also think that Federer is capable of winning Calendar Grand slam in 2017. Will be pinnacle of his career !


Van Persie Says:

^^ I would think about that at least until the FO, if I were you.


Miles Says:

Watching the 2012 AO final was like an endurance test. Most casual tennis fans I know stopped watching it well before the end. Horses for courses and some people like repetitive baseline rallies – but watching them for 6 hours is almost a form of torture for me!

There is a reason why Djokovic isn’t a particularly popular champion (that’s not not to say he doesn’t have fervent supporters) and that’s to do with his style of play. He CAN play attacking, scintillating tennis, but more often than not, he has relied on outlasting his opponents from the baseline. He’s paying the price for that now.


Miles Says:

Van Persie – I’d like nothing better (in tennis) than for Federer to win the CYGS, but I really don’t think it will happen. If he could win Wimbledon one more time, then that would be an astounding achievement and a fitting finale to his career, but I realise we might have seen that at the AO already!.


Van Persie Says:

Miles,

hehe, I became a Nole fan because of that 2012 AO final.

“There is a reason why Djokovic isn’t a particularly popular champion” I think more, it was because the majority was also divided between Rafa and Roger.


Tennis Vagabond Says:

BTW, for points geeks, I saw the ATP site was again listing Big Three comparisons on Big Titles: GS, WTF, Masters. Novak and Fed were tied before this season. I was wondering how that would stand up in terms of points as used for rankings.

Applying the current ATP points weighting, it comes to
Fed: 70,000
Novak: 61,500
Rafa: 56,000


Tennis Lover Says:

Djokovic’s 2015 is an over rated year. Agreed he made to the final of every tournament he played, won three grand slams, probably 6 masters which is a record I believe will be hard to break..That being said, the field was incredibly weak on 2015 and besides Djokovic played awkwardly hollow brand of tennis on 2015. His aesthetic score in that year was 2/10. He kept on playing monotonously notorious tennis throughout the year. It is only 2011 when played with right intensity and on a mission conviction. His aesthetic score on that year is 7/10 in my account. So, I consider 2011 is the best year of his career while 2015 was shallow and diminutive and hollow in terms of aesthetic aspect. So, I do not count that year as outstandingly good even though his result was outstanding that year though. All in all Djokovic is an epitome of dull and dud tennis when you rank him under total value in the game of tennis.


skeezer Says:

Watch out TL – WB gonna gitcha lol.


lakie Says:

We must appreciate those Djok fans who are still posting. At least they appear to be tennis fans unlike the others who have gone into hiding.


Travis Bickle Says:

Van Persie,

I really admire your patience and gut in getting involved in discussions with these idiotic fed-fanatics. Aside from Tennis Vagabond and Skeezer to some degree, the others are rabid hate-filled lunatic who hate anyone who threatens their ‘object of worship’.

Like you said, when Novak beat Rafa in 3 consecutive GS finals in 2011/2012, they were big fans. Not because Novak but because he prevented Rafa of having 3 more slams (today Rafa count would have been 16 adding just those 3 from 2011/2012).

Then, when Novak prevented Fed to get 3 recent slams by beating him in finals (2014 & 2015 Wimbledon, and 2015 USO), they started being scared of Novak’s GS count and started calling him “mechanical” and boring. Now, when they think Rafa is no longer a threat to win multiple slams, only now they would “allow” possibility of Rafa getting his 10 RG title.

These sick, sick folks don’t care about tennis – they are filled with irrational hate to anyone threatening Fed, Consequently, one cannot carry on a rational discourse with them and is best to leave them be and not interact. In any case they “wake up” only when Federer wins, and act their usual over-the-top “Fed as religious experience” mantra. Once he is thoroughly beaten by a superior player (e.g. his last GS match against Novak, AO 2016 I believe), they will cool down a bit.

You could see by the names and hate towards other players (all good ones not just Novak) that these creatures are not regulars here. As I said, TV and Skeezer to some extent are exceptions, but that’s about it…


Tennis Lover Says:

For fans like Travis Bickle , I have to confess Novak’s brand of tennis defines lunacy and superfluity at its best. His legion of fans are also notoriously crooked and bizarrely biased. Watching Novak over the years, he resembles me someone like who he is begging to be martyred under the cross for the sins he indulged in while playing tennis.


Wog Boy Says:

Just remember all these posts and wait until he starts loosing, they will star again with grandpa excuses, his prime ended when he was 26 years of age according to fedfanatics even man himself said he played best tennis of his career 2014/15 and yet Nole beat him in three GS finals and embarrassed him in the fourth GS, just year ago, when Roger played excatly the same brand of tennis as he is playing today, difference is that Andy went to slamp, Nole moved into next phase of his life, spiritual phase and Rafa is 80% of his former self.


Daniel Says:

Not true WB.

He was not playing the same brand of tennis back in 2014/2015 and even this tennis his playing right now is not better than his 2006 top level.

Fed declines after 29
Sampras declened ater 29
Nadal decliend after 28
And Djoko also foloow the trend and declined after 29, precisely after last year RG.
Murray may be declining as well, will know soon. Think not!

But agree with you that Nole and Rafa changed (as it is the case with every single top player once they reach 29 – I was very vocal about this before if you remember and even said that Djoko could be the outcast). The tour is in a transiton phase and he is capitilizing, hence nobody is dominating.

His tennis is refreshing, he adapted, evolved and that is what makes him so remarkable, regardless if he doesn´t win anything the rest of the year. He raised the bar once more and made something nobody thought would be possible, as you and many Djoko, Nadal and Murray fanatics, who were certain he would never, ever win a Slam again. He backed that up woith IW.

I understand, most non Federer fans are in total disbelief this is actually happening, but take it on the positive side of this all: CF1 and his weak era arguments are gone for 3 months now. This is the best contribution these latest Federer wins gave to all tennis fans on here;-)


Wog Boy Says:

Ohh yes Daniel, go and rewatch the match, he was hugging base line, stepping into court, picking up the ball early, but Nole was zoned, 100% focused.
Now, I don’t expect any fedfanatic to admit that same as he played the best tennis of his career in 2014/15, by his own words, since you would have to admit that Nole is better player, that Nole’s best beats Rogers best, as it is the case.


skeezer Says:

@lakie,
You spoke too soon :)


Amit Says:

Yeah obviously 2014-15 were the best years of Federer… And 2016 was even better.. Stop calling others as idiots/fanatics just because you think Novak is the greatest thing ever in tennis or you can’t see the obvious.. Federer has done countless amazing things on a tennis court,which Novak/his fans could only dream of.. Novak has done only one thing greater than Fed, and that is winning the NCYGS… Everything else Fed is much ahead.. At least Rafa has a great record against Fed to show, what does your guy have over Fed?? Beat him four times in GS from 2014-15!! Lol!! So what!!! Fed also has handed Novak his are a lot of times.. After all they’re equally divided for wins and losses.. And yeah don’t worry, Fed will thrash your guy again.. And yeah, NATURAL JUSTICE will be ultimately meted out by nature.. A man who is an inferior tennis player, would always be remembered as an inferior tennis player.. Federer is Supreme, and superior by a safe margin, in terms of level of play.. And he shall always be remembered as such.. Pretenders and challengers are always there to itch the arse but that doesn’t dethrone the greatest ever champions.. Federer always was, is and will be a better tennis player than Djokovic.. Djokovic, for all his exploits,will never be talked in the same breath as Federer.. Its not Federer-bias of mine speaking, but my mind.. I am trying to be as objective as possible here, by bluntly stating my thoughts… You Djokovic fans can go on trashing Fed or name-call most of the Fed fans(and not just Fed fanatics/Novak haters!!) but that doesn’t change the truth… I dare say this..


Wog Boy Says:

Just to add Rafa, Rafa’s best beats Roger’s best anytime anywhere bar indoor also proven and certified.


Wog Boy Says:

I just stated the facts and facts (truth) hurts, obviously.


Amit Says:

Truth is harsh always, but looking at how this Travis bickle verbally assaults almost all the Fed fans by calling them idiots/fanatics, I had to speak out as I can’t resist anymore of this offensivenesss… Its overstepping limits of decency already by direct vicious personal attacks to people, just coz they don’t agree!! Just grow up really!!


Amit Says:

Nothing hurts.. Especially which is unsubstantial… Reality is ever too far from assumptions..


Amit Says:

Obviously nature is insane to reward Federer the most in tennis!! Just like nature lets all the unfit ones to survive over the fit ones.. Man is fallible, nature is not.. It always rewards the most undeserving only, with the maximum success and bounty.. LOL


Amit Says:

“certified and proven” Mother Nature and Her Natural Justice which always make the right selections of the fittest ones for glory and survival.


Okiegal Says:

@Wog Boy 5:02……What a nice thing to say about Rafa and I couldn’t agree more!!


Wog Boy Says:

Okie, thanks, but I only stated the obvious, even Roger has the records, nobody denies that, the thing that hurts the most his fanatic fans is that Rafa’s (and Nole’s) best beats Roger’s best, proven and certified, that’s good enough for their fans.
BTW, good to see you again:)


skeezer Says:

Fed has beaten Rafa not in his prime, and grandpa age. Funny talk some FEW you want to cling to he past, when today Novak is a shadow of himself and Rafa not far behind. Fed would have smacked down and made him look silly if they (Novak)met in AO or IW. It wouldn’t have been pretty. Keep dreamin and holdin on to the past. Just be thankful they didn’t get a chance to play each other since the new year.

And would like to thank again the Church coming out and congratulating the GOAT and his fans, much appreciated!


Daniel Says:

At the end (as of now).

Fed is GOAT, that debate is pretty much settled unless somebody outFed, Federer. Only chances are Djoko and Nadal. One is past his physical prime and doesn’t have the game Fed has to reinvent himsef. It’s not fonna happen. The best case is him getting another RG, preferably this year.

Djoko, is in La La Noland. So, anthtong can happen. He porven many tikes before. Wouldn’t be surprised if he take slast three Slams. But realistic, not gonna happen.

So, Fed fans can brag: 18 and GOAT; Djoko fan can brag, NCYGS (nothing will take that away frok him) and Nadal fans can brag (HxH will always be there).


Okiegal Says:

@Wog……I still check in on TX to see what’s movin’ and groovin’……and if I see something that is worth my two cents I will comment……and your comment needed a response from a loyal Rafa fan. Yes by all means Roger has undeniable records, but I wonder if Rafa has ever asked Roger this question: “Who’s your daddy”? Lol!! Boom baby………HEAD to HEAD stat ROCKS…….just sayin’…..


Daniel Says:

Oki,

Who is your daddy ON CLAY? And well, who isn’t Nadal’s puppet there. Even Djoko😜


Tennis Lover Says:

Who beats who does not matter. Ultimately Federer has the number 18>14>12. Let’s talk about the aesthetic part of the game. Here is my number: Fed 8 out of 10
Rafa 4 out of 10
Djoko 3 out of 10
Murray 2 out of 10

Shame on those lunatics who brags about Nole’s supremacy in the tennis. He is good player no one is denying it. But, if you put him under the measure of tennis as a game of physical and aesthetic splendour he pathetically score below par. How come you brain farts love and howl for a player who over the years played a quixotically disturbing game of tennis? Any answer?


Okiegal Says:

@Daniel…..🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂…..BOOM BABY 9 Spanish
el toros!! He may or may not get number 10 at the FO this year……. but you know what…. it’s all gravy from here on out!! The King of Clay reigns, or should I say the GOAT of Clay??? VAMOS!!!


Tennis Lover Says:

Oki, There is no one on the face of the earth who can deny that Rafa is GOAT in clay. That Red territory is kingdom of his own. As I stated earlier Rafa is ultimate epitome of post modern tennis. Quirky yet quaint, repetitive yet irresistible, belligerence yet benign- This is how Rafa’s game evolved over the years as clay warriors. Wish him great Run at French open as I said champion of his stature deserve a sweet swan song and no place can be as fitting as Rolland Garros of Paris. As for Fed, as Fan and as a tennis lover I believe he will make a magic run at this year’s wimbledon and frustrate despicable tennis fan like Travis Bickle and Wog Boy. I see this two soon to be infected with some kind of serious mental disorder after Wimby. So best wishes for them


Okiegal Says:

@Tennis Lover……Yep people who don’t care for Rafa won’t deny his prowess on the red dirt……just like Fed on the green green grass of Wimby. I’m not sure what the future holds for either of them ……but fans still love to see those two go at it. The big five have given us lots of exciting tennis……could not leave Stan out of the mix!


J-Kath Says:

Daniel: There is no such thing as “a Murray fanatic”.


Daniel Says:

J-Kath,

Yes there is, cdp was one in my view😜. Who I liked and kind of missed his wit here.

Thought he would come back after Wimby but nada.


Wog Boy Says:

These stats are what pains fedfanatics, the sample is more than enough to came to conclusion that Nole best beats Roger best:

They played 45 matches and it is 23:22 in Nole’s favor, not a biggie one would say, but if you look more closely in the numbers you will see next:

18 finals played and it is 12:6 in Nole’s favor.

4GS finals played and it is 3:1 in Nole’s favor.

14GS matches played and it is 9:5 in Nole’s favor.

These are quite a margines, no? How much of fanatic you can be not to admit that Nole is better player one on one, boring or not, but better. The only fanaticism that comes close to their is ISIS one, but not there yet;)

Same applies for Rafa with even bigger margine.
So to conclude, we have so-called “the GOAT” with two of his major rivals better players than him, one on one, proven and certified.


Daniel Says:

WB,

Not true because most of the finals, Slam Matches and Slam finals were after Federer prime ended when he was 29+ in 2010. This numbers are towards Novak because they played the bulk of their matches AFTER Federer was on his prime. Let’s check

Federers prime ended in 2010. After that he had moments of great play, as this last 3 months.

Djoko’s prime started in AO 2011, when he won his second Slams.

1 – Number of matches played until 2010 end of the year, before Djoko hit his prime and Fed had just lost #1 to Nadal:
19 matches (from 2006 to 2010)
- Finals: 5 / 3-2 for Federer
- Slam matches: 6 / 4-2 for Federer
- Slam finals: 1 / 1-0 Federer

2 – Number of matches played since beginning of 2011:
27 matches (from 2011 till now)
- Finals: 13 / 10-2 Djoko
- Slam matches: 9 / 7-2 Djoko
- Slam finals: 3 / 3-0 Djokovic

Pretty clear WHAT happened. They played more once Federer hit 29+ which considered old almost on the verge of retiring for anybody else.

The thing is that Federer is so good that right now he is way past his prime but his game is so complete and versatile that he can revamp it, hide flaws and increase his attacking ability and shorten points. It is as if he waited for Nadal and Djoko to decline as he knew they couldn’t sustain that level for too long and now he may have the last laugh. Already had one in AO.


Daniel Says:

Last 4 Slam matches they played Federer was already 32 and 11 months and older while Djoko was 25, just when a player hit pea form.

And the argument that: “they will even things out” is also not true because they already played more matches with Fed at 30 and will continue to do so.

The older player always has the disadvantage in HxH with multiple matches, specially when 59% of the matches already took place under one disadvantaged and will just keep increasing.


lakie Says:

Daniel I like your post at 9: 24. Shall I say ” A Daniel come to judgment” ?


Daniel Says:

None can deny that this Federer even in this from can’t hold a 4 hours match with Nadal on clay, like their Rome epic in 2006. That is a perfect example of Federer at his prime. He lost, didn’t have “mental block” against Nadal back than but go toe to toe with him till the last ball, even had 2 MP’s on Nadal’s serve.

This Federer is a different player, he is using attacking and playing fast as possible, but he knows he can’t sustain a rally for too long as in the past he could go 45 shots with Hewiitt (which was the pre-Nadal), like that epic point any day.

This is an optimize version of his best self.


Wog Boy Says:

Yes Daniel, let’s disregard Nole’s matches when he was puppy, and we are even, no?
You keep moving goalposts the way it suits you, for every year Roger didn’t live to expectations you have excuses starting with mono, but the facts and stats stays forever.
Even puppy Nole beat Roger in the first final they met, in masters in Roger prime 2007, the writing was on the wall, Nole is better player one on one, you play you are fit, no excuses, mono, twins, another set of twins, badback, grandpa, grandma etc.


Wog Boy Says:

Besides, by Roger’s own words he played his best tennis in 2014/15, who are you to question him?


Tennis Lover Says:

Wog Boy is whimsically whipping his programmed logic. What kind of wackadoodle a person can turn out to be when he looses his sanity and claim Nole is better tennis player than Federer. This kind of person defy common sense, tactical knowledge and aesthetic value of sports and they just love to puke their delusion of grandeur for a player who brings no joy and creativity in the sports. That does not mean that Novak is a bad player.


Daniel Says:

Always stand for what I wrote, I mention this about prime for years now, regardless of this latest results.

The funny is that you never claimed Djoko was better than Federer “one on one” until this years AO.

You were just expecting the Slam total to be higher or tied with 17 to mention GOAT. But now that the worst it could , actually happened and Federer won #18, which you all said would never happen, suddenly a change in tune. Now that that battle is over, you resort to this Djoko is better because of this stats. Kind of a desperate attempt, more of resentment, as is the MO with most Djoko fans these days.

In the end, Federer is the better player, he has the most Slams, the most weeks as #1, the most year end #1, more consistent and able to sustain a high level of play for a decade and a half, winning Slams in a spam of 15 years, unheard of in Open era. And 2 Slams after 30, with one at 35 and half.

The others are chasing him and his standard is once more elevated. To be seen if they will be up to the task. So far they stay have a chance, even if slim one.

A year ago, attacking Federer was the sine qua non on here, everybody: Djoko, Nadal and Murray fans. You all made fan of him, another Slams would never happened, dismissed him,took him out often 10, would never beat Nadal in Slam again, can’t beat Djoko in a Slam anymore (still true, let’s wait and see) and so on…

The gaps to target on him are narrowing with every passing achievement.


Daniel Says:

“Besides, by Roger’s own words he played his best tennis in 2014/15, who are you to question him?”

Ohh, C’mon, you are better than believing everything they say on a conf room. You who always said Federer is master of mind games.


Daniel Says:

Also, grandpa Fed beat Super Nole in his absolute best in RG 2011 ending a 41 match winning streak when he looked invincible on….wait…his worst surface: clay. Ohh, I know, it wasn’t Djoko’s fault, it was Fognini who gave him a walkover. And Fed fans are the only ones guilty of excuses (net touch in RG, DelPo draining him out, wind in USO 2012, asthma)…LOL (Giles like)

I am not dismissing that Fed take a bunch of wins when Djoko was undercooked, but you can’t deny that the majority of matches after Fed was 30, this are facts.


skeezer Says:

Church is butthurt. OBV.


Wog Boy Says:

Wrong Daniel, I said it few times and believed always that Nole is better player one on one, no need for lying, are you so desperate? I’ve never expected Nole to get to 12 nevertheless 17, where did you get that from, what are you mind reader?
As I said if you gave Roger benefit of the doubt because of his old age than equally you should give Nole benefit of the doubt for his young ages, so we are even, but you are not doing that, you keep moving goalposts the way it suits you.
The fact is they play, they are fit and stats are taken as such and they say undoubtedly Nole is better player one on one, I know it hurts, but such is life.


skeezer Says:

^laughin at the sourgrapes. Novak better than Fed? Only if you twist the facts to suit your own. ROFL!!


Tennis Lover Says:

Wog Boy and Travis Bickle always try to upset harmony here with their vicious vendetta. No matter what kind of statistics and logic they try to create in no account Nole is better player than Roger. Nole never was a better tennis player than Roger, He is not better than Roger at any point in his career and never will be. In sports and creative field people only celebrate when excellence are matched with unmatched creation. People still remember Mohammad Ali but not Joe Frazier. People still remember William Shakespeare but few talks about Christopher Marlowe. Player like Federer are blessings for the sports of tennis. Federer will endure as long as tennis will be played. Without him tennis is like Boxing without Muhammad Ali and music without Mozart, Painting and innovation without Da Vinci.. Nole, in spite of having achieved so much will never come close that aura of Federer. So, STFU djoker fanatics and accept the plain and inevitable truth. For truth shall endure and False will always perish.


Wog Boy Says:

Daniel, you very erratic, that’s strange, you are usually very composed, you look desperate, are you hurt with facts, go back to my 9:02pm post, those are stats in full, not cherry picked like yours.


Daniel Says:

This is the thing, one on one are very subjective.

Let’s place them to play in 1 month time (enough for Djoko to recover) on a HC, and see who would win? we don’t know that but would you bet on Djoko, as the “better” player “one on one”, on his current for? I bet not.

Same with Nadal, on Clay, I will bet Nadal to beat Federer 4 out 5 everytime, but on grass and HC, not so, is even, more so toward Federer right now.

The time matters, age difference matter and Fed and Djoko are not same generation and overlapped their prime years, they have a 6 years age gap, it can’t be overlooked. This matters when comparing, hence the “one on one” is not the parameter to define, as it never was on the grand scheme of things.

Achievements, and playing the filed and results matter. Basically you are now reverting to the same HxH argument Nadal fans used. If it makes you feel better, feel free.

Now that all of them are past their primes at the same time we will see what happens, and only so, because Federer defied nature sports logic and is still playing where many experts (for you who likes to use what these people say on press) thought he should be retired. Just proving that not even former great and ex professional players knows things no more than we fans and Sunday players do. They were all proved wrong!


Wog Boy Says:

I can see few of fanatics are here so now Daniel is not alone, and I have to go to finish few things and pay few bills and live you to study the facts in full and hopefully you’ll come to your senses:

——-
They played 45 matches and it is 23:22 in Nole’s favor, not a biggie one would say, but if you look more closely in the numbers you will see next:

18 finals played and it is 12:6 in Nole’s favor.

4GS finals played and it is 3:1 in Nole’s favor.

14GS matches played and it is 9:5 in Nole’s favor.
———-


Daniel Says:

No WB,

I am just baffled by your “logic” which basically is resentment towards Federer, even more so than before. You resent Nole for very different reasons (wife, meat, weight, letting Becker go, religion, assumed nationalism and so on and on) and is attaching to this mantra that he is better than Fed to have some sort of safe harbor, silver lining.

You can believe whatever you want, but say your opinion and assumptions as ‘facts” is too much. When results speak for itself and all tennis community are in total awe with Federer right now.

I know, for people who dislikes him it must be unbearable right now. No wonder many vanished from this site recently.


Daniel Says:

OK. let’s place it back to back so its clear for everybody to take their on conclusions. Also have to get some sleep to work early tomorrow. Good night!

________
1 – Number of matches played until 2010 end of the year, before Djoko hit his prime and Fed had just lost #1 to Nadal:
19 matches (from 2006 to 2010)
- Finals: 5 / 3-2 for Federer
- Slam matches: 6 / 4-2 for Federer
- Slam finals: 1 / 1-0 Federer

2 – Number of matches played since beginning of 2011:
26 matches (from 2011 till now)
- Finals: 13 / 10-3 Djoko
- Slam matches: 9 / 7-2 Djoko
- Slam finals: 3 / 3-0 Djokovic

Pretty clear WHAT happened. They played more once Federer hit 29+ which considered old almost on the verge of retiring for anybody else.

_____


Wog Boy Says:

“You resent Nole …,”

Don’t put the words in my mouth, ok?
I am pissed off with Nole due to some of his choices, but I don’t resent him nor I ever said that, lying didn’t work, mind reading didn’t work, your last resort to put words in my mouth that I never said, how desperate you are since you failed in proving your points.
Now I really have to go, and check those stats again, they fkn hurt:)


skeezer Says:

Meanwhile,
Fed has his 18th and a (5th Slam)Masters in 2017. GOAT.
Djoker?
Guru in it with a non Serb diet and all that those “commitments”. Life is good. Rest up.
Fed? Miami is next. Play on.
Go Fed!


Van Persie Says:

As long as Fed fans will mention Djoko here with “hatred”, it is a good sign for Djoko. When they will start rooting for him at a match, then I will be really worried. That will be the end, I guess…:)


Margot Says:

@ Daniel 8.23
CDP was “outed” by some idiot, can’t remember whom, and I knew he would leave and not return.
Which is a shame cos I miss him too, quite apart from the fact that Andy fans are very, very thin on the ground here….
Talking of Andy, he has flown home from Miami and is having more scans on his elbow. Unlikely to play DC.


J-Kath Says:

It’s Federer I feel sorry for.
Goodbye again.


chrisford Says:

Daniel is continuing to wade through his statistical confusion on Roger vs Novak.
In sport, Daniel, one can have more trophies than their rival, but not be the better player (or team). Stats can be padded.


Giles Says:

J-K. Lol. You keep popping in and out of retirement. TX is hard to resist at times, no?


Miles Says:

It’s wonderful – the Joker fanatics can’t bear what is happening! Their idol has been eclipsed by a player pushing 36!

Still, they can console themselves with the knowledge that once Federer turned 30 (and well past his peak), Novak was able to beat him in more finals (at least on the slow surfaces!).

I can just imagine what those same fans would say about Roger if he had played a post-peak, 30+ Agassi so many times when Roger was at his peak!


Daniel Says:

Too bad Margot,

Never understand why some leave here for good: grendel, both Dave’s (the Fed fan abd the Djoko fan) and a few others come to mind. Some just get enough.

Hope Murray and Djoko reciber soon. This Miami feels strange without them. Was vizarre to see Wawa 1st seed. Think this was the first tine in a Master none of the BIG 4 (and lates #1 for more than a decade) wasn’t top seed.


Daniel Says:

VP,

I will keep cheering Novak as he is my second fave and I have nothing agains him just his fanatics.
Wanted him to win RG last year and even was behind him in Wimby 2014 over Federer, because it meant more for him at that time (he was losing too many Slam matches and second guessing) and that match changed his career as he went on to have that amazing 2015.

But I made my point, veating a 30+ recorreently doesn’t make you better just because that player is a freak and super competitive at old age.

Is the same argument ref HxH with Nadal on clay. Federer is so good that he kept facing Nadal on clay final after final and Djoko on older age.

Had Federer didn’t reach those 3 slams finals he lost to Djoko at 32 and 11 months, 33 and 11 motnhs and 34, it wouldn’t affect his Slam tally because he didn’t won thise and just got his 18th without playing Djoko.


Van Persie Says:

Daniel,

All cool. I was not talking about you in my 12:40 post.

Regarding players at with 30+, I have the feeling that we will have more active players at this age in the future, than we had in the past. Do not say, that it will be Djokovic (time will tell about him), but others.


skeezer Says:

Actually there akready are more players playing now 30+ than ever, no?


skeezer Says:

VP,
I agree. The only thing that would make that not happenung is injury and playing too much early on in their career. On the women side we had Hingus playing pro @ 16. And she has been long gone(singles). Williams sisters played little or no jr tennis and they are now still playing(examples)


DC Says:

any player or team in any sport has two objectives which players try to achieve in their lifetimes.
– win major tournaments
– get ranked at the top
And these two are the only meaningful records. Any other so called reocord is merely a statistical point encountered while trying to . achieve these two records. I would doubt anyone whos started playing profesional tennis would do so with the objective of winning the max numvber of minor tournaments or have a better h2h against someone else. No player in their right mind would bother about their H2H against the other at the expense of these two records.

Given a situation where a player has to chose between these two possible outcomes a) worsen your h2h against your competitor but win an extra slam OR b) maintain a better h2h against your competitor but win lesser slams.
Any sane player would chose a path that leads to option a.

that being said, Fed holds both these records. Not only that , he is just a better shot maker than everyone else. Look at the number of winners he hits in every match.
Fed also scores above his peers on the intangibles i.e. style of play and shotmaing skills

Nole and Nadal are great players, have played awesome tennis for extended periods of time spanning across years – however they just dont have the records to backup their claim of being the goat.

And that truly makes Fed the goat. A true dominance over the entire field indicated by his no 1 ranking for 307 weeks and the 18 slams hes collected.


J-Kath Says:

DC plus others….This stat zone article may be of interest despite it’s 2016 vintage….

http://www.thestatszone.com/articles/how-to-the-top-tennis-players-perform-on-grass-wimbledon-preview


skeezer Says:

h2h(and or weak era) are for fans who favs are lacking the bigger goals. Agree with DC it is not what players goals are. Except maybe Kyrgios…


Daniel Says:

I think Djoko can play well into his thirties as well. Till last year thought he would be exception of the rule, but the 29 “declined tennis great age” seems to catch him as well. It´s like that bizarre 27 club (Cobain, Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, Winehouse). It´s just an age where all time greats decline. Hope he still has some good years left in him and maybe his recent misfortunes will fore him up again. He has the tools to be more agressive and he may turn into that once he senses his body is not the same.

We may call it a decline but he lost with small margins: played a match for #1 in London finals, lost 2 to Kyrgios who on a good serving day can beat anybody and only bad match was AO against Istomin, which also wente the distance. What´s worrying is his elbow injury, which we are hearing about it for quite some time.

Nothing better than a string of good wins to put him back on track. Maybe clay will be the answer. Hope so!


Daniel Says:

Excellent article J-K,

They were spont on ref Murray, not that he needed to beat Djoko, but as he was the second favorite for Wimbledon.

It would be interesting to see if they do a similar one this year after RG and we see their conclusion before The Championship.


J-Kath Says:

Giles – It’s because I know you miss me!!.

Daniel: Yes, the article had an interesting slant.
Meant to put a bet on Miami today – oddly enuf I’m picking Milos as I can’t get him out of my head.


Daniel Says:

One of the things I love about UK, betting houses everywhere;-)
Was in London during Wimby 2009 but was self sabotaging myself: won betting on Fererer but got greedy and wanted to get the sets right also. In the end came out even..


Betterer Says:

@ Wog Boy:

I told a certain person here before AO QF that he should stop Fed bashing if Fed beats everyone from here on and win the slam. Fed did, but the guy conveniently found new excuses.

Now, I do hope you will stop your Djoko is better one-on-one if Fed manages to take a lead in H2H and also wins 5-set match against Djoko whenever they meet.


Wog Boy Says:

Betterer,
No I want stop, if you read carefully I said 23:22 is not biggie, it is h2h in most important matches what makes Nole better head to head player, that Nole’s best beats Roger’s best anytime anywhere, and that’s quite a margin as it is proven and certified and backed up with the facts I posted, remember, I am not talking about records but about two particular players using 45 matches as sample, or you think 45 matches is not enough.
If you can take any comfort in beating 80% Rafa or Nole, that’s fine, particulary Nole since these days he is losing left and right, but after all you wrote about new super Roger don’t come back with age excuses ones he starts losing to top players, because you people can’t make up your mind, when he is winning he is the best (best BH, serving, positioning, moving eyc), ones he starts losing than it is normal, he is grandpa, mono, bad back, mysterious knee injury, fatigue of old ages you name it, though he found solution for even that, toilet break before last set to top up with certain juices, he comes out of the toilet breaks as fresh as daisy, ready for anothe five sets, juices that makes you hit harder, run faster and last longer than when you were 25 years of age, wow, I want some of those juices;)


Wog Boy Says:

This is my last post about this particular subject since I proved my case beyond reasonable doubt, you fedfanatics can continue talking with each other and console each other since you lost the case, that’s fine with me.
If you want you can find me on another Roger thread, one with the appropriate photo sitting (laying) on that fur, with his sexy hairy legs, short white socks, tight shorts, blazer, I am trying to contact his agent if we can use that particular photo to advertise our business, whatever it costs.
BTW, I wonder what PETA has to say about the photo, if it is real fur?


skeezer Says:

“This is my last post about this particular subject since I proved my case beyond reasonable doubt”
You just proved it to yourself, no one else. Enjoy your Fed jealousy.

The best Tennis player has the best records. Don’t try to twist it any other way.


the_mind_reels Says:

It’s amazing seeing what an influence our nascent president has had already! The notion that if you just keep saying the same thing over and over again…well, gosh darn it, of course it is indisputable fact and how dare you disagree with me!

Actually, I shouldn’t give the guy so much credit. TXers are just mostly hard-headed, impassioned nuts ;)


HJF Says:

Put some underwear on love ! ….


chrisford Says:

DC writes –
“any player or team in any sport has two objectives which players try to achieve in their lifetimes.
– win major tournaments
– get ranked at the top

(So Federer is Te Greatest)

===============
Truth is players
1. Want to make it past each stage in their career, to succeed.
2. If lucky enough to have the talent and the other attributes to have a shot at it – to be the best.
3. Make money from it as long as they care to, and continue to, play.

Majors won and time ranked high are indices of such success, but not the only criteria. What is their won loss record? Who were their great rivals they prevailed over or lost to? (How hard was it for Leyton Hewitt to be #1 for over a year compared to what Andy Murray faced?) What were the priorities in their era? (players skipping ‘majors’ in the 70s, 80s because they could make more money elsewhere.)

Federer is a great player. But there are other great players with different attributes their fans can look to.


Truth Says:

Apparently, beating Roddick required supreme concentration which aged Fed a dozen years in 2004.
No wonder he kept losing to the “unimpressive Djokovic” and “one dimensional 14 slam winner and teen idol Nadal”.


Truth Says:

You let skeezer post his fake love for Djokovic, insulting non-tennis gibberish, lies and “jealousy” excuses but no one else can comment…
I didn’t realize it was illegal to be correct.


skeezer Says:

^You are describing a player who wants to have a successful career. There are plenty of those.
But there can be only ONE #1, only ONE leader of the record books. Don’t try to confuse the two.


Truth Says:

Gloat over someone who depends on injured opponents and extremely weak, washed up nemesis Nadal. Yeah, such an old man.


chrisford Says:

Skeezer -

“The best Tennis player has the best records. Don’t try to twist it any other way.”

Records can be padded.
In any field, including outside sport – being the “most decorated” is not necessarily being the best.

Back to tennis- the GOAT debate gets interesting again if you account for the level of competition, say, Ivan Lendl or Mac faced…if you conjecture who would be the most successful of the Big 4 had they all started out at the same time (my pitch is for Nadal early on to have won the most majors, Djokovic getting the hard court nod and becoming the 2nd best clay player, Andy more Slams and time as #1 than he will actually get. And Federer without the 12 Slam cushion he got in the 5 years of the weak era with Novak and Andy not around and Rafa not yet an all-court contender. Maybe 6 Slams from less…no bums in the early 2000s to win Slams agains. And later, instead of a lacking confidence Andy ceding 5 Slams to him, or Novak a couple -
Roger in dogfights with Andy and Novak from the start


Daniel Says:

CF1,

Djoko only has 2 out of 8 USO, losing to 4 different players, 2 his contemporany (2 losses to Nadal, and 1 to Murray) and 2 others to Federer and Wawrinka (already plus 30).

No way he would dominate HC Slams. He may well domiate AO same as he did now, but USO, could even be worst.


skeezer Says:

“…being the “most decorated” is not necessarily being the best.”
I do not agree with this. It is not about being “decorated”, it’s about “earning” the Slam or Title or #1. These achievements are not “padded”.

“The GOAT debate gets interesting..”
There is no GOAT debate. Give it up.
“And Federer without the 12 Slam cushion he got in the 5 years of the weak era ”
Give up the weak era argument already, this has been debunked so many times, don’t you read other posts here?


Daniel Says:

Leyton Hewitt was a young prodgy, only seen again in Nadal. What he did in his peak years were remarkable and he was the leader of the transition, the one who pathed the way for grinding tennis succesfull as it is today and followed by many: Nadal, Djoko, Murray, ferrer, and many others.

All the acoollades Nadal received when young were the same Hewitt ewas receiving back when he was #1, no wonder his nickname was “rusty”. Because it was a pain to play him, hence Fed had so many losses to him in his early ages.

See CF1, your view is subjective, to your impression and what you consider parameeters. The only one you got right was money as driving sports athletes. But everyone knwos that once you win majors and recahe #1, as DC mentioned, the money will follow.

That´s why when the journey mans reach semis in a Slam to them is the hightlight of their careers, more importsnt than winning an ATP title.


DC Says:

Here we go gain with the weak era argument. The truth is that Fed was too strong for everyone else and hence everyone else was weak.

In fact the era from 2004-2008 was so strong , even a goat contender like Nadal could not win a HC slam in those years. And after fed went off his peak, Nadal was able to make his mark on hard courts and grass as well.

There is a reason why Fed has 18 slams and is the goat ; he plays real tennis and enjoys it unlike others who win using a mechanical tennis process.


Aced out Says:

Roger is on his way to Number one again. It is truly amazing that he can do that at his age! Nadal may also be contention for Number 2, we’ll have to see how it pans out over the next 3 months. In the meanwhile here’s a great article detailing them both http://www.138mph.com/decoding-the-big-three-murray/


Czarlazar Says:

Regarding who is better between Federer, Djokovic and Nadal, there is no definitive answer so I’ll give them joint GOAT honours as a reasonable compromise. That said, it’s fair to compare their respective career winning percentages, and especially against top 10 opponents. This will address the “he beat me mainly when I was out of my prime” argument. So here it is, and I’ve thrown in three other greats to fill out the comparison:

Career winning % Winning % vs top 10
Roger 81.6 65.6
Nole 82.8 68.2
Rafa 82.2 64.7
Murray 78.4 55.6
Sampras 77.4 63.6
Borg 82.7 70.0

The numbers don’t lie and Nole has as much claim to GOAT status as either Roger or Rafa, especially with winning HTH against both. The other takeaway is that Borg retiring at 25 was a tragedy and probably prevented him from assuming indisputable GOAT status to the present day. Remember, Borg won 41% of GS tournaments he entered, and almost 90% of GS matches! And did so in a very strong era…


skeezer Says:

“That said, it’s fair to compare their respective career winning percentages,…”

Uh, no, its not.

How many matches has Novak played?
920
Rafa?
Just hit 1000.
Fed?
1340.

You need equal critieria. Novak skewed once again with a dash of “era” thrown in.


skeezer Says:

Actually I think when all is said and done Connors winning % will be hard to beat. Look how many matches he played.


Czarlazar Says:

I commend Fed’s high winning percentage over a much longer career than either Nole or Rafa. Very impressive and duly noted. However, that makes their edge in Masters 1000 titles (Nole at 30, Nadal 28 and Fed only 25) even more significant, especially as they were often battling each other for those crowns.


Markus Says:

To Czarlazar: Here’s my comment to your analysis: 18.


Czarlazar Says:

Good one Markus, but the 18 included slam-less names such as Philippoussis, Gonzalez, Baghdatis and Soderling, and tier-2 slam holders such as Roddick (four times), Safin and Hewitt. That’ll bring out the weak era argument every time.


Daniel Says:

How Nadal perfomrs in clay can place him in hunt for #1. But I can´t see a player who hasn´t wona HC title in more than 3 years contend for top spot.

Also, this week, Kei, Federer and Nadal are contesting for #4 ranking. Raonic lost, Thiem, Tsonag, Cilic all out. If Federer goes same round as Nadal and Kei he will enter clay as #4. Kei and Nadal will eventually neutralize each other as thet can potentially clash in semis.

for Federer best way is him to win this title, beat one of them in finals and further increase his gap, so even if he underperfoms on clay he can guarantee Wimbledon top 4 seed. With last year semis and 2015 finals point he has a good case as long as he keeps his points high ot not be surpassed by Kei, Nadal or Raonic (who has finals from last year).

For him right now, the sooner Nadal and Kei loses in Miami the better, but think one of them will make finals.


Markus Says:

Czarlazar, you are naming only those in the finals, along the way, there are many other big names he beat. Besides, you think Federer fans are crazy to accept that Djokovic is at par with Federer in terms of greatness? Djokovic is not even at Nadal’s level. By the way, Djokovic could not even stop Wawrinka from winning his three slams, first in the quarterfinals at the Australian, then the finals at the French and the US Open.


Markus Says:

So, Czarlazar, if Djokovic were really that great, Wawrinka would have made your list of “slamless” finalists. Instead, he now has three.


Markus Says:

…and had those “slamless” finalists not played against Federer, maybe against somebody like Djokovic, they too, like Wawrinka, would have had a slam title in their careers.


Miles Says:

Chrisford still peddling the weak-era argument! LOL!

Federer at 35 is currently leading the way in the so-called strong era! In reality, Djokovic was number 1 in the weakest 2 year period of the last 40 years. Murray was recovering from back surgery, Nadal fell off the form cliff, DelPo was persistently injured(the guy would have been the number 1 player over most of the past 5 years).

Djokovic’s main rival during his 2014-15 dominance was a well-past-his-peak Federer (at 33 and 34 years of age). Even then, Federer was beating him on the fast surfaces.

Luckily for Djokovic (apart from the above examples), none of the other top 10 players he faced were anywhere near as good as: Roddick (remember, the guy who beat Djokovic 5 times in 2009), Soderling (the guy who beat Nadal at RG), Hewitt (ex-number 1, slam champion) Safin (ex-number 1 and slam champion),Baghdatis and Philippoussis – any one of whom would have been able to beat Djokovic on a good day.

The so-called weak-era had more strength in depth than Djokovic’s 2014 and 2015 seasons. Djokovic, the man who (at his peak), lost 4 slam finals against Murray and Wawrinka!As good as Federer and Nadal? No chance – and history will how that.

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